champion with high win rate and pick rate

I Main Swain·Aug 28, 2017·1 votes·724 views

insert cry for nerfs as if thats all thats needed to determine if a champ is op or not

goodness its been a while since ive seen so much circlejerk around one champ. if someone is willing to talk about actual numbers, not playrate and winrate and banrate but IN GAME factors like stats and abilities and can have a logical and valid argument that janna is overpowered and it isnt just the combination of powerful support items and an adc meta that was practically built for her, then i will listen. but im SO done with all the people whos ENTIRE argument chalks down to "she has a good winrate and a lot of people play her"

8 Comments

ChargeItDownMidAug 28, 20172 votes

[deleted]

I Main SwainAug 28, 20171 votes

actually i would say its the complete opposite, judging whether a champion needs work done based primarily on how well they do and how often theyre picked is actually the worst way to do it. take for example what riot did with sejuani and shyvanna with devourer and cinderhulk respectively. they each had a very good interaction with an item that made them incredibly strong in the meta for a while, so riot nerfed them and shortly after they nerfed the items that were the actual cause of the problem and left the two champions in the dust. neither of them had op kits, it was just that their interaction with an item was very good, and because riot made the decision to curb them first instead of the item, and then later didnt restore their power when they curbed the ACTUAL source of the problem, they were left all but unplayable. im not saying those shouldnt be factors at all, but they should be more of warning signals that they need attention or relatively minor points in discussions about their power. those statistics are mere results of many many variables such as meta, kit, playstyle, itemization, difficulty level of the champion, raw stats, and a whole lot of other stuff. with statistics such as winrates and pickrates you have to look at why they are what they are, you cant just take them at face value as the answers. thats like graphing something just because you know the value of Y even though you dont even know the rest of the equation. in fact you literally cant nerf a champion based entirely off of their win and pick rates unless you just blindfold yourself and throw a dart at a stat to nerf, you have to analyze the champion and decide what it is that makes them too powerful.

ChargeItDownMidAug 28, 20171 votes

[deleted]

I Main SwainAug 28, 20171 votes

while it is true that you cant just wait around until you can find a balanced way to nerf an item, its also true that janna really isnt a big issue. yes shes strong and yes she has a good winrate but its not so much that its a major threat to balance. honestly her winrate and pick rate right now, although theyre good, are frankly nothing to panic about by any means. and yes what you say about items is true but more often than not an item becomes too strong after riot either first introduces it or gives it a buff or rework, in which case it typically isnt that difficult to nerf. all that aside, its a known fact that support itemization's strength in combination with strength of adc itemization and the terrible tank and mage itemization is a huge problem (frankly riot needs to do an overhaul on the item system as a whole because in all honesty its a mess). im not saying that its never the right thing to nerf a champion rather than an item, i just gave those two examples because they were times when riot made a bad move in deciding to nerf a champion that synergized a little extra well with them when the item was the problem across the whole of champions who build it. essentially i was just trying to prove my point that nerfing someone primarily off of pick and win rates is a bad call. also, while youre right that they can always buff champs later, which i dont think would be a problem if riot did that in a timely manner, but they dont. it was a long time before sejuani got compensated, and thats happened a lot of other times over the years, riot has a bad habbit of nerfing something in compensation for something else then nerfing the very thing they were compensating for and not fixing the first thing.

i wasnt saying there arent many ways to nerf a champion, nor was i saying you couldnt use one nerf to balance them in many different ways or anything of the sort. my entire comment basically was just me saying that you have to go deeper than just win rate and pick rate when deciding the balance of a champion.

ChargeItDownMidAug 28, 20171 votes

[deleted]

I Main SwainAug 28, 20171 votes

her win rate is high but it isnt astronomically high. astronomically high would be like 58-60% (ps you havent given a solid reason why janna is so unbalanced). honestly i wont say she doesnt need any work but she certainly isnt near as op as the boards claims she is. jannas win rate is almost certainly so high because she fits perfectly in with the meta right now because right now everything is about adc's and shes very focused around the adc whereas most other supports are more for the general team. essentially that and her e's compatability with ardent censor is what makes her so dang strong right now.

anyways, i still believe that they should have nerfed the item because of the sheer number of champions that could abuse their power, but we'll probably just have to agree to disagree there. my problem with that more lies in what i said earlier, that they have a bad habbit of nerfing A in compensation for the strength of B, then nerfing B without rebuffing A to compensate, leaving it in the dumpster for a long while.

thats more or less what i was saying, but i would say use it to determine which champ COULD be overpowered, because i think we can all agree it isnt always the champion that gives them the high win rate. i entirely disagree on your next point, the only case where win/pick/banrate alone can determine if a champion is breaking the game is if theyre ASTRONOMICALLY high, for example if i recall correctly at one point kassadin had something like an 80% ban rate, and at one point pantheon had like a 65% or something winrate. thats a clear sign that the champion needs an immediate nerf. however, most of the time those statistics alone arent enough to determine whether or not someone needs buffs/nerfs. i wont pretend like they should be ignored, but they certainly shouldnt be taken at face value as gospel. i still dont think janna is overpowered because after playing with as and against her and looking at the current meta and other issues in the game such as items it still seems to me that the problem is primarily not with her own power.

ChargeItDownMidAug 28, 20171 votes

[deleted]

I Main SwainAug 29, 20171 votes

yeah i should have added the disclaimer that those were by no means meant to be accurate statistics that i threw out at the beginning they were just pulled out of my admittedly very faulty memory (although i SWEAR i remember seeing pantheon at 60% at one point).

imo comparing champions to other champions more often than not isnt the best way to determine power unless they have the same or very similar roles, apples and oranges. its also rather inefficient to balance a champion individually against all the other champions in the game, im no expert but i would think nothing would hardly ever get done balance wise. they typically balance champions against the meta trend and champions in their preferred lane/role. anyways though, the primary reason for that is because it wouldnt make sense to take a champion with extremely low play rate into account to the same extent as someone who is very popular, not to mention that as a support the power of adc's and support itemization is a very very big part of Janna's balance. honestly i have mixed feelings about janna because while she is a little too cut and dry in her kit, league is becoming too complicated if you ask me, riot is removing so much simplicity in exchange for more skill oriented things that it feels like the strategy of league is disappearing (thats just my personal opinion though i wont try to call it fact or say that most people share it). and again i wont say she doesnt need anything done, but if you ask me people have turned into a bloodthirsty mob like they always do and they want her gutted and left to die just like they do every time someone is strong. if i were to guess, i think this will all blow over when the adc meta is good and dead.

also just as a side note thanks for being civil and debating like a civilized human being, im sick of the tendency of people to just rage and froth at the mouth rather than having an actual discussion.