Riot, can your new champions be designed like Sion & Xerath?

MarkedOfKane··31 votes·2,175 views

Pretty straight forward. Not flashy and super crazy. Just simple. Against these two champions, I have never felt like "Wow, thats crazy". The moves are like this:

Passive: Your first attack on a champion will stun them

Q: Dash and damage everything you pass though

W: Lob a bomb that stuns what it hits

E: Gain attack speed and movespeed boost

R: Charge up and damage everything around you

The fun in it is that you have a simple kit, and how you try to use it in its best way possible is what was fun. You think of how to just combo your abilities. Anyone can play this champion. But people who will play this champion more will get to know the moves a little better and can do better than the others.

Here is how I feel the new champion moves are like

Passive: Every third auto attack will deal 10% of your max health in magic damage if your health is lower than your opponents. If your health is higher, you heal for 10% of your current health. This effect is changed to 5% of your max health if it is on an enemy champion who has lower max health than you do.

Q: Your champion leaps into the air (untargetable while doing this). And lands in an area. If its on a champion, that champion takes true damage based on how many stacks of your passive you have applied to them. This ability will knock minions away from you like projectiles that will lower the magic resist of whatever they hit. If the minion is killed by the leap, it will explode at the end of it's knockback

W: Your champion shoots out a linear skillshot. When it hits a unit, it will fly out at another unit like a skill shot. This will not bounce back to the same target, but if it manages to hit the target a second time, you gain a speed boost that decays over time based on your bonus MR and the affected target takes true damage. After this happens, it cannot hit that target ever again. It can bounce off of towers an unlimited amount of times.

E: Passive: Damaging a target by any means boosts your armor and MR temporarily.

Active: Your E passive is reduced by 20% when this is on cooldown. You can blink up to 3 times over a short distance. A ghost is left where you last blinked from. If something hits that ghost(so if you dodge something with this ability) Gain bonus 3% AP each time. This changes to 4% if the champion that did it was hit by your W.

R: Passive: When you die, the champion that killed you takes physical damage equal to 20% of your max health

Active: Attach a chain to an enemy champion. If you deal 20% of their health in damage while it is attached. They get stunned. If you do 40%, they take a true damage burn. If you do 60% damage, you get a shield for 20% of your max health. If the target dies, they explode, dealing damage based on your bonus health, minus your bonus attack damage, multiplied by 1% of your MR in magic damage.

Yeah. This champion is complicated as fuck. It has a ton of weird shit that your opponent will have no idea what the fuck is going on and you will probably have to learn what they do. At the end of the day, the champion pretty much plays the game for you. You activate your abilities and a bunch of shit happens. You could probably take this champion idea and make 3 champions out of it's concepts.

TL;DR: Stop giving champion kits so much shit.

23 Comments

GamersEye5 votes

You super generalized the first set of abilities then added numbers and conditions to the second set?

Passive: Every third hit do damage to the enemy champion that is dependent on the state of both your health bars.

Q: Champion does a leap, becoming untargetable and dealing true damage to the enemy based on how many stacks of their passive they've applied, also knocking back minions who explode for damage if they die.

I could do the others but you get the idea. The other difference between the two kits is that one is so simple that it's almost totally numbers based. The second had TONS of tuning levers.

Also why does everyone hate third hit passives? They give a clear indication that something is going to happen instead of just DOING the damage. It's about clarity and counterplay but people act like it's the worst mechanic in the game. I don't think it's super creative necessarily, but I think that's alright.

Teridax684 votes

I agree with this. I also question the OP's use of Sion as a supposedly "simple" champion, at least in the way it's framed (seriously, go read his kit description on the wiki, it's one of the wordiest around). Xerath's kit is, similarly, loaded with many different effects and conditionals (his passive doubles against champions, his Q has variable range and a self-slow and can be canceled to refund mana, W has increased damage and CC at the epicenter, E stuns based on distance traveled, etc.), so these "simple" champions also have a ton of different points of power that can be changed at any given time to adjust their strength.

The issue with making champions as simple as, say, Warwick or Katarina, is that fewer effects mean a) fewer possible things to tune, and thus more difficult balancing, b) less variation in gameplay, and therefore champions who tend to be less interesting, and c) power that can actually feel far more diluted than any modern champion. Conditionals allow abilities to be far more powerful than they'd be allowed to if they applied the same effects every time (as mentioned above, three-strike passives allow for a lot more power than just persistent on-hit effects or the like), and also set new mini-goals for both the player ("do things in this way that's a bit more difficult") and their opponent ("prevent your opponent from doing things this way") that each carry their own rewards. By contrast, abilities that do the exact same thing all the time tend to not feel all that powerful, and when they do happen to be really strong they also tend to feel unfair (e.g. Tristana's old E back when it dealt point-and-click damage over time that scaled with 100% AP). There are definitely cases of champions who probably have a bit too much going on (Thresh or Azir, for example, but also LeeSin, who's been around for years), but the plethora of new effects on modern champion kits is a good thing.

The Loveless3 votes

But no one wants to play a balanced Vel'Koz item 3070 item 2050

HaIlMonitor4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AfQrs3GQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-26T05:19:42.924+0000)

But no one wants to play a balanced Vel'Koz item 3070 item 2050

Vel'koz is the most annoying champion in the game to lane imo. It seems like he spams his spells non stop at me so eventually one of the 50 will hit me and then I am going to take a full rotation.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

You have obviously not played against an AP Ez.

HaIlMonitor2 votes

{quoted}

You have obviously not played against an AP Ez.

AP ez cant stun you then ult kill your whole team with one r press at baron pit unless your all stacked and low on hp.

IcyPepper2 votes

then ult kill your whole team with one r press at baron pit

To be fair, simplifying a champion's ultimate with "one r press" is a pretty weak argument. And even with the cc aspect, not a lot of champions can 1v5 (although Annie... but you see a lot more threads about her than you do about Vel'Koz). Besides, Ezreal's ultimate is global, so he can indeed "press r" at Baron pit. At least Vel'Koz has much shorter range.

Just be glad Vel'Koz isn't completely broken. He can be annoying at times, but so can AP Ez.

HaIlMonitor3 votes

I dont agree with one press R is a weak argument. A few champions have really strong ults but then you look at weak ults like Irelia or ones that help the kit but dont make or break every 1v1 Rengar Khazix TwistedFate Pantheon and then some ults that are really just press R and win Velkoz Rumble Katarina

And this whole argument is started because of an opinion. I think Ez is weak in mid lane and don't think I have lost that lane. But always get shit on by velkoz and he seems to do more in matches that is around.

Lady Hammerlock2 votes

ap ez is only strong if you even manage to survive your laning phase

terkmc4 votes

Irelia ult isn't weak. Doesnt look too impressive, but its damage, healing and sheen proc is really high

SouL1ess2 votes

{quoted}

but then you look at weak ults like Irelia

Are you being serious right now?

The spell has a base 320/480/640 + 200%AP + 360%Bonus AD damage over 4 hits, it's almost impossible to miss, and it even heals herself.

Her ult has more total damage than Talon's ult at ALL ranks, and even outdamage Brand's ult if Brand's ult hits twice.

Not to mention it gives Irelia 4-5 sheen procs for each time she activates that spell.

How is it weak? Not having an immediate effect doesn't mean its weak. It has very significant damage, and she can even heal herself by 20% of that extremely high base damage. She can also use it to farm since the CD is only 70/60/50, very low for an ultimate (and still lower CD than Talon's ult, which is KNOWN for its relatively low CD).

Sometimes I wonder how does the league community perceive one ability as strong or not. Irelia's ult outdamages Fizz ult by a whopping 160 base damage at rank 1 (which means Irelia's ult deals 80% more damage than Fizz's ult at rank 1), yet if I ask if Irelia's ult, by itself, is stronger than Fizz's ult or not, it is expected people will say Fizz ult. Doesn't make much sense to me.

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

Vel'koz is the most annoying champion in the game to lane imo. It seems like he spams his spells non stop at me so eventually one of the 50 will hit me and then I am going to take a full rotation.

But that's like every Mage with CC.

I want champions like Bard. Entirely different than normal kit with familiar mechanics. Not too complicated as well. High skill cap.

Only Play Darius1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AfQrs3GQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-26T05:19:42.924+0000)

But no one wants to play a balanced Vel'Koz item 3070

What is this item 2050

The Loveless1 votes

an item that got deleted I believe. Can't say I've seen it before.

Laughing Fish3 votes

Sion's Ult never made you say "Wow, that's crazy"? An ulting Sion is the most intense thing in the game. Also, read Sion's spell descriptions. He is not actually that simple.

MarkedOfKane1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Laughing Fish,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AfQrs3GQ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-08-26T18:41:54.782+0000)

Sion's Ult never made you say "Wow, that's crazy"? An ulting Sion is the most intense thing in the game. Also, read Sion's spell descriptions. He is not actually that simple.

When Sion dies. He comes back to life with 100% lifesteal and faster attack speed. His attacks will deal 10% of his target's max health as damage

Sion charges a powerful swing. It can be activated early to just slow and do less damage. Close to the end of the charge, it will knock the target up instead and will deal more damage.

Sion passively gains max health for each unit he kills. He can use this ability to gain a shield and reactivate it to remove it and deal damage

Sion shoots a skillshot that reduces armor of the first unit hit. If it hits a monster or minion, it will be knocked back and slows everything it hits

Sion begins to charge. He wills top when hitting terrain, champion or by reactivating. Targets hit get knocked up. He is immune to disables while doing this.

JoroA1 votes

NO there must be LCSbigplays!

Cowgirl Ed1 votes

that sounds like a new champ made during these days lol btw agree

Dextix LT1 votes

"No, we need more flashyness" - CertainlyT 2015.

Saianna1 votes

I might be the only one, but Imo old Xerath was healthier than current one. Not that I dislike new Xerath or anything..

And the reason he was reworked was simply to make him bit more popular (his old winrates were pretty fine ~47%~~).

Nicarasu1 votes

But where are the passives on your Q and E?

Llanite1 votes

There are literally 140 "simple" champs, stuff is saluted, there's no point adding more.

If they even bother to, champs with similar playstyle and role will start competing and there will be losers. What was the last time you see Syndra Karthus ? They were outclassed by Xerath VelkozAhri , if there was another long-ranged mage being created, either him or one of these 3 will then fall of the bottom and never be seen again.

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