Wonderful, I've now bought that 
I saved up so hard for - the enemy ADC will now have to think twice before they attack me! Oh dear, he has
plus that 7% arpen mastery, now my is only worth 2 
. Still, I'm sure this is fair right?
Playing Sona8 votesYou paid 2350 gold for Thornmail only to get countered by 5800 gold Black Clever + Dominik
Poor little you.
Critmaster Garen4 votes[{quoted}](name=Playing Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ab0JaJk2,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-09-15T17:13:03.016+0000)
You paid 2350 gold for Thornmail only to get countered by 5800 gold Black Clever + Dominik
Poor little you.
though its not like those items only affect the thornmail. at the very least youll also lose 30% base armor.
i dont think those items individually are a problem, but the excessive armor pen stacking thats possible is dumb.
Penns3 votesWhat champ ever builds a Last Whisper item and Black Cleaver tho?
Durfain3 votesThey don't have to be on the same champion - Black Cleaver is armor reduction. The point is that armor penetration is bullshit right now
EndlessSorcerer3 votesA fairly common build for Jayce is along the lines of:
For other options, Zed and Talon build something along the lines of:
Penns2 votesOh yeah Jayce is one, but.. Jayce... Who plays Jayce? :D I dont think assassins really build Last Whisper a lot since its only strong against high armor tanks.
EndlessSorcerer1 votesI play Jayce. He's pretty much the only AD mid-laner I enjoy playing, though Varus is a fairly close second.
While it seems a little odd to build Lord Dominik's Regard on assassins since they want to burst down squishy targets, it does let them handle fighters/tanks better. Besides, it isn't like there are many options which are more efficient for raw damage on them competing with it.
Penns1 votesIt lets them fight tanks better, but thats usually not what they want. Talon gets it because of his aoe I think, but other assassins like Zed, Kha or Rengar dont.
Rengar seems to go for pretty heavy crit, Zed and Kha get a 
over Last Whisper late game most of the time.
EndlessSorcerer1 votesI think Zed would be something of an exception to that.
While he is an assassin, one of his main fall-back patterns is splitpushing due to his strong 1v1 potential. As such, he'll often have to contend with fighters and tanks attempting to stop him.
Rengar doesn't really build much in the way of armor penetration anyways (aside form Ghostblade). IIRC, he mainly builds AD and crit to burst down squishy targets.
Durfain2 voteswhich is to what I was referring but apparently everyone here thinks I'm talking just about thornmail
[zombie-brand-facepalm]
Playing Sona2 votesThat's what those items are for.
Oh look!
You lose 15% base attack speed because of 
.
You lose 40% base move speed because of 
.
You get healed for 10% of your base health because of 
.
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=Playing Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ab0JaJk2,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2016-09-15T17:22:33.572+0000)
That's what those items are for. Oh look! You lose 15% base attack speed because of
exists.
yet there is no combination of slow items that would allow someone to automtically slow an opponent by 90%
because it would be broken.
im not questioning that there are individual items that can reduce or penetrate armor. im critisizing that they can be stacked to the point where 200 armor turn into 60 or less.
i can make the same argument for
there is one item that reduces attack speed slighly. not 5 items, runes and masteries that can be stacked to set someones attack speed to 10%
its the extreme case i want riot to get rid of, not armor penetration or reduction as whole.
Playing Sona1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ab0JaJk2,comment-id=0001000000020000,timestamp=2016-09-15T22:46:21.638+0000)
im critisizing that they can be stacked to the point where 200 armor turn into 60 or less.
You can stack armor to the point where 200 AD turn into 60 or less.
It actually cost less gold to get that in fact.
Using with basic masteries and your champion base armor, you get much more than ~233 armor which is what you need to reduce damage by 70+%, making 200 AD into 60 or less.
Both items together cost less than Black Cleaver + Dominik, a lot less. 5150 versus 5800 gold.
Mira Arya Enthe5 votesThornmail is your first problem. Buy something that has HP and Armor, or has an active mitigation like FH or Randuins. Thornmail is a shit item on most champions atm. Even a Deadmans or Sunfire tend to be better. Because thornmail has no HP, no CDR, no active mitigation. It is specifically now to counter a 3-4AD team that does lots of AA damage.
paperbIade1 votes[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ab0JaJk2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-09-15T17:13:45.214+0000)
Thornmail is your first problem. Buy something that has HP and Armor, or has an active mitigation like FH or Randuins. Thornmail is a shit item on most champions atm. Even a Deadmans or Sunfire tend to be better. Because thornmail has no HP, no CDR, no active mitigation. It is specifically now to counter a 3-4AD team that does lots of AA damage.
Mira Arya Enthe1 votes[{quoted}](name=I Win Haha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ab0JaJk2,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-09-15T19:35:56.023+0000)
Okay. So A SINGLE champion will do 6% CURRENT HP damage to me with their basic attacks? 80%+ of the damage will still be flat numbers from objectives, turrets, AD, abilities, basic attacks, crits and so forth. If you take away 6% of 2000 I am left with 1880HP. If you take away 6% of 3000 I am still left with 2820HP for ALL other sources of damage. That is still much higher than 1880HP remaining. %HP damage will kill you no faster from buying more HP, it just won't kill you slower either. But most of the damage you face will still be flat in LoL. Especially from primary ADCs who is your main threat as a tank.
Critmaster Garen4 votes
Ralanr4 votesLike Thornmail is actually expensive.
Critmaster Garen2 votesLike Thornmail is actually expensive.
if its 2350 gold in the garbage bin, it becomes expensive. just because something is cheap doesnt mean its not wasted gold when its too inefficient.
Ralanr3 votesWhich is why you don't waste money on its current state in the first place.
Penns1 votesWhy exactly is it a waste?
Ralanr2 votesIf I had to guess, the damage reflection isn't great until you get over 250 armor and since it provides no health then it'd be a bad early buy for a tank.
Penns1 votesBack when cinderhulk was meta, I used to rush Thornmail after it all the time on Seju/Zac and get freelo because adcs couldnt even tickle me and just killed themselves, especially with Gromp buff. It might not be that core/op anymore but I think its still good against a team with 2-3 auto attackers.
colesy3 votesyou're not meant to be able to facetank champions with percentage penetration, stop whining.
Durfain2 votesThen why can I facetank mages who build 
?
Mira Arya Enthe3 votesThen why can I facetank mages who build
Tanks are countered by ADCs. Because mages are burst, ADC is DPS.
Pandemic Punch2 votes^ end of thread
Mira Arya Enthe2 votes[{quoted}](name=I mute all of U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ab0JaJk2,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-15T17:37:41.079+0000)
^ end of thread
I play Shyvana, Sejuani, Leona, Nautilus, Braum. Never have these "Tanks die in .7 seconds" problems people report. So I added my imput. DPS counters tanks. Burst only does if you waste money on a thornmail. Because then you have no HP. Even Ahri can kill a tank if they build no HP.
