Am I the only person who feels like assassin metas ruin the game?

LankPants·Sep 28, 2015·5 votes·1,898 views

Maybe it's just me, but these metas feel stupid and just generally un-fun to play in.

Ekko, Zed, Yasuo and Lee Sin feel like they're the staple picks of this meta and they all feel terrible to play against. It feels like if you try to play anything a little squishy and immobile right now you just lose the game. Immobile mages especially just feel terrible right now. If you try to pick something like Syndra, Xerath or Zyra mid you just get mercilessly stomped into the ground by what ever assassins the enemy team is running, and there's often three assassins on a team.

I'm just struggling to have fun with the game right now compared to three or four months ago where it felt entirely possible to play any champ I wanted and actually have a shot at winning the game. God forbid I'd want to play Zyra mid, Kog ADC or Sona support without having to play 3-5 champs who can instantly jump on my face and blow me up without me really having any options in response.

36 Comments

RueianSep 28, 20154 votes

Any lopsided meta is toxic to the game.

NemeBroSep 28, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Immobile mages especially just feel terrible right now.

Lux is stronger than any assassin that goes mid lane at the moment.

Also, we're in an assassin meta? And here I thought the rift was filled with tanky, can't be assassinated assholes like Garen Darius Skarner Skarner

The champions you mentioned are popular, but they always have been. Probably always will be. They aren't very strong in a meta that has so many tanky juggernauts who can easily kill them running around.

LankPantsSep 28, 20151 votes

Also, we're in an assassin meta? And here I thought the rift was filled with tanky, can't be assassinated assholes like

If you ignore ADCs and Supports, who are unlikely to ever be assassins the top picks are Lee, Yas, Riven, Lux, Ahri and Annie. 5 of whom have assassin like traits, 4 could realistically be considered assassins.

They aren't very strong in a meta that has so many tanky juggernauts who can easily kill them running around.

They might not be if juggernauts were actually seeing play, as it stands their ban rates are just too high to allow them to actually hold assassins down at all. Tanks are also fairly dead, so that's not helping either.

NemeBroSep 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If you ignore ADCs and Supports, who are unlikely to ever be assassins the top picks are Lee, Yas, Riven, Lux, Ahri and Annie. 5 of whom have assassin like traits, 4 could realistically be considered assassins.

Who gives a flying fuck about who is popular?

Other than Riven and Ahri (and fuck Ahri), the assassins you've named aren't actually all that fucking good, be it in pro play or solo Q. Those champions are popular for two reasons in all likelihood:

People cling onto the illusion that they are strong.
They're really fun.

They might not be if juggernauts were actually seeing play, as it stands their ban rates are just too high to allow them to actually hold assassins down at all. Tanks are also fairly dead, so that's not helping either.

Malphite still has a high play rate and doesn't give a fuck about assassins, especially of the AD variety. He also has a higher win rate than any AD assassin other than maybe Talon (I'd have to check).

And it's not just the juggernauts that counter assassins. Imagine that poor little Zed's poor hurt feelings when a tanky as fuck Irelia is doing his job better than he can and can easily 1v1 him at any stage of the game.

Cho'gath mid is a brick wall who counters almost every mid lane assassin.

Amumu is a constant force to be reckoned with in the meta and doesn't give a fuck about assassins.

Devourer junglers will eat any assassin alive 1v1, and are still in the Solo Q meta (or at least they would be, were devourer not disabled).

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=

Notice how the highest win percent mid laners are immobile mages, with Ahri actually only in sixth place.

Assassins ain't shit.

LankPantsSep 28, 20151 votes

I'm going to sleep now and can't really answer all of this but I'll leave with this.

Notice how the highest win percent mid laners are immobile mages, with Ahri actually only in sixth place.

Yasuo has a 48% win rate, seems fairly average right? The thing is when Yasuo is played correctly (E max) his win rate shoots up to 54.6%. The only thing holding Yas's win rate down from being utterly insane is that 80% of people play Yasuo wrong. When he's played correctly his winrate is one of the best in the game.

What does this mean? Win rate as a raw statistic doesn't really tell you much, there's a lot of factors that can affect a champ's win rate beyond just how powerful they are.

ZazushaSep 28, 20153 votes

assassins are needed in the game. Assassins with escapes, defenses and sustain abilities are toxic and un-fun to play against.

you seem to hate mobility in general, not just assassins.

LankPantsSep 28, 20152 votes

I hate defensive mobility. It creates situations where it's impossible to punish champs even if they fuck up. I'm fine with abilities like Shadow Dance, Phase Dive and Resonating Strike, I'd also be fine with Sweeping Blade if it's CD was 0.5 at all ranks or it had a longer internal CD.

Things like Safe Guard, Cronobreak, Death Marks return and Distortion just feel really bad to play against.

Mobility on bruisers and tanks is also generally fine, as they tend to get advantages from hitting targets with it and are innately rewarded for using their mobility offensively.

SaixosSep 28, 20152 votes

I think the thing is just that playing something like kog ADC makes you reliant on your teammates for protection, which is difficult to find in a solo-queue environment. I personally prefer playing against assassins much more than over things like Xerath. Facing someone like Ekko feels challenging and enjoyable for me, but getting poked down endlessly from afar by Xerath is dull, uninteractive, frustrating, and unenjoyable.

They all have their upsides and downsides.

LankPantsSep 28, 20151 votes

Facing someone like Ekko feels challenging and enjoyable for me

He might be OK if he didn't have an 'Oh shit I fucked up, better make it not matter at all' button. It's just too hard to punish him for mistakes, especially when compared to someone like Xerath.

SaixosSep 28, 20152 votes

The way I see that is that it makes the lane more interesting. He has 4 seconds of time, so I think there's an interesting dynamic of trying to bait him into an extended trade >4 seconds, where he can't use it to escape anymore. Or you can try and trick him into using it at the wrong moment. Or you can try and win lane before he has his ult.

It can be harder to punish him for mistakes like overextending sure, but he is also likelier to put himself in dangerous situations and make mistakes compared to Xerath, since he's melee and needs to get in your face.

LankPantsSep 28, 20151 votes

so I think there's an interesting dynamic of trying to bait him into an extended trade >4 seconds, where he can't use it to escape anymore.

If you do that he just ults on your face, heals off all the damage you did to him and most likely kills you. There's not really such a thing as a bad Ekko ult, minus retarded cases where he escapes then throws himself back into the enemy team. Even in it's worst case it's a huge heal.

Or you can try and win lane before he has his ult.

That's an option for around two champs. Most champ's can't lay down the pressure to kill an Ekko early and it's easy for Ekko to just safe farm and use his E for safety.

Also every time a champ can lay down the early pressure to force assassins out of lane they get gutted, just look at Syndra right now.

It can be harder to punish him for mistakes like overextending sure

That's the main mistake that should always be punishable. If it's not then you're removing an element of map awareness from the game. Bad players who overextend without warding and get ganked should be punished, either with a flash or death almost all the time.

Having a button to ignore that on a relatively short CD is not OK IMO and Ekko is by far the worst offender in this case of any champ.

Old Man TeetoSep 28, 20152 votes

Assassin's being usable as good answers to priority targets is fine

Assassin's being the only worthwhile pick was not fine

Currently assassin's are a little weak, but not to such an extent that you can't pick and play them into and with the right compositions.

Yasuo isn't a full fledged Assassin, he rarely 100-0's targets.

Lee Sin can be built as a type of Assassin but requires snowballing to do so, and then to land his Q onto a priority target as glass in a team fight is significantly more difficult than other assassins.

Zed is an assassin, but is rarely played due to how 1-3-1 split pushing was hit and the strength of Dragon/Baron objectives now.

Ekko can also be built as an assassin when solo laning, but has worse burst than other assassins if you avoid his R's damage, but is normally a jungle tank.

Fizz is a bit ludicrous, but has trouble in the laning phase against many opponents and can struggle to get rolling as an AP Assassin. Changes to his ultimate along with ease of QSS/Zhonya's on carries helps keep him in check, but he's probably the best currently.

All-in and hard engage is meant to counter champions with low mobility who want to spit out damage over time.

Syndra actually can all-in assassin's just as easily as they can to her (except Fizz) Zyra, Kogmaw, and Sona are extended team fighters, all-in assassin's are MEANT to destroy them. Xerath is a poke mage, designed to win before an engage can occur.

LankPantsSep 28, 20151 votes

Assassin's being usable as good answers to priority targets is fine

Assassin's being the only worthwhile pick was not fine

Currently assassin's are a little weak, but not to such an extent that you can't pick and play them into and with the right compositions.

Look at pick rates mid for a second. Top 10 picks are Yasuo, Ahri, Zed, Lux, Annie, LB, Viktor, TF, Fizz and Diana 6 assassins, as well as an assassin like burst mage.

Top 10 jungles are Lee,_ Yi_, Xin, Vi, Elise, Rengar, Ekko, Shyv, Amumu and Eve. That's 8 champs with at least assassin like traits, all of the top 7 picks have some assassin like traits, meaning you can expect to be VS a burst based jungle almost every game.

Yasuo isn't a full fledged Assassin, he rarely 100-0's targets

Have you tried doing the maths on a 3 item Yas's burst? I assumed Tri/SS/IE and 18 for ease of calculation. He deals 2293 raw mixed damage +- around 50 based on runes and masteries. That's fairly up there with assassins like Akali.

Lee Sin can be built as a type of Assassin but requires snowballing to do so, and then to land his Q onto a priority target as glass in a team fight is significantly more difficult than other assassins.

Regardless of build Lee still plays as an assassin in 90% of situations, his burst and durability change but he's still basically an assassin unless he's playing peel.

Zed is an assassin, but is rarely played due to how 1-3-1 split pushing was hit and the strength of Dragon/Baron objectives now.

That's just factually incorrect. Zed's play rate is around 13%, he's the 3rd most popular mid after Yas and Ahri. (who I didn't include because she actually feels fair to play against)

Ekko can also be built as an assassin when solo laning, but has worse burst than other assassins if you avoid his R's damage, but is normally a jungle tank.

He's normally a jungle assassin, his most common build is straight AP. Him having bad burst is a myth, even completely ignoring his ult he has 1280+170% AP damage, assuming he never procs his W passive. Akali has 640 (not even making that up) + AA damage + 180% AP + 60% bonus AD in a single rotation.

Is Akali a low damage assassin? Because her numbers look about the same as Ekko's when you completely ignore two of his abilities.

Fizz is a bit ludicrous, but has trouble in the laning phase against many opponents and can struggle to get rolling as an AP Assassin. Changes to his ultimate along with ease of QSS/Zhonya's on carries helps keep him in check, but he's probably the best currently.

I don't think Fizz is that much of a problem right now. He's frustrating but he lacks the same BS factor that the other champs I listed have. He's also just a lot less popular.

Syndra actually can all-in assassin's just as easily as they can to her (except Fizz)

She gets pushed out of lane by all these champs, unlike them she has actual mana costs. Also her Q isn't even an ability until rank 3.

Zyra, Kogmaw, and Sona are extended team fighters, all-in assassin's are MEANT to destroy them.

I'd agree, but there should be an innate risk to doing so. When an assassin CCs you for 2.25 seconds, bursts you 100-0 in that time frame, then peace's out two screens away that just feels bullshit as hell.

BluePolarizerSep 28, 20152 votes

Those are all issues in low elo. The game is not balanced for low elo. If you think you are better than low elo then use what you think is OP, and get out of it.

LankPantsSep 28, 20151 votes

Most of my info is sourced from champ.gg, it's all plat+. Where it's not sourced from champ.gg it's maths and comparisons.

Very few of my points are at all subjective, but it's easier for you just to dismiss maths and facts that don't match your opinion based on ranks isn't it?

BluePolarizerSep 28, 20151 votes

Fizz has a negative win rate in all positions so he must be bad and needs a buff. Buff Fizz.

Ekko is one of the worst laners in the game while his jungle is just mediocre. Buff Ekko.

LankPantsSep 29, 20151 votes

I never once mentioned a win rate. I don't like using win rates as indicators of power at all, I don't think they're very good.

Matthias9119Sep 28, 20152 votes

Immobile mages especially just feel terrible right now.

They may "feel" terrible to you, but according to champion.gg (which you cited), the five highest-winrate midlaners right now are, in order:

Lux
Heimer
Malz
Annie
Veigar

All of which are immobile mages.

Top and Jungle have a pretty good mix of different champion types doing well, just eyeballing the list sorted by winrate. Assassins might be popular -- Lee continues to be the most-picked jungler despite being consistently terrible all season in solo queue -- but they don't seem to be crowding out other champions or winning at concerning rates.

khorneySep 28, 20151 votes

there really isnt a such thing as a meta but okay. ohh gee so your compl you have to build certain items to ignore burst thats your complaint

LankPantsSep 28, 20151 votes

My complaint is that I see a Zed, Yasuo, Lee Sin or Ekko every single game, often I see 3 of them.

khorneySep 28, 20151 votes

funny thing zil counters all of them his ult is a direct counter to zeds

LankPantsSep 28, 20152 votes

Playing Zillian is gimping yourself. He's not a strong enough champ to justify picking right now.

Sure you counter the Zed but you're still less useful than him.

TBH I'd like to see Zil be a viable pick, because yes he is strong into assassins.

khorneySep 28, 20151 votes

not when i use him he is hella strong late game and peopel have to understand that his q are not easy to land but pretty much 90% of the games i have played we won becuase of me or only lasted as long as becuase of me since his q has a 90 ap ratio he is liek annie in a way do not group or you will die. he has a free ga that is 30 cd thats not good how ,.... people compl then when they get ulted he is magicically useful. and his movement speed increase and slow down off his e i like using him.

LankPantsSep 28, 20151 votes

You're gimping yourself by picking a champ with 0 damage into late game.

That's not to say he can't work, more just that he's not a reliable champ right now as a counter to assassins.

Syndra's in a similar position, where she actually has neutral match ups into most assassins. (that's unfortunately as good as her matchups get) She has good peel that's almost instant and her CC's long enough to kill most assassins. That doesn't make her an assassin counter, it just makes her actually playable into single assassin teams. Even as a Syndra player I wouldn't ever actually recommend picking her right now, even into her best matchups.

I feel like Zil is almost the exact same in that regard, sure if you're skilled with him he can work as a counter, but he's not really.

The only actual assassin counter in the game right now is Kayle, but that just feeds back into my point of assassin metas are super restrictive in terms of picks.

khorneySep 28, 20151 votes

1 his q does alot of damage 2 it has a high ratio 3 u can instant cast it how is that weak ....

LankPantsSep 28, 20151 votes

I can also dodge his Q almost 100% of the time, It's not reliable damage.

khorneySep 28, 20151 votes

i dont have to hit u for you to take the damage.... i can hit a cs and u take the full damage as well

SirsirSep 28, 20151 votes

feels like assassin metas ruin the game?

or Sona support

Slight contradiction there. Neither are fun to play against.

Also assassins right now are not really that prevalent. If anything they are weaker than normal ATM since they can't really assassinate juggernauts. If they are doing well it is because your team comp is ill equipped to deal with them. If you have nothing but squishy CCless champs and a Shyv, Assassins will run amok. But if you have some decent lockdown, positioning, and focus they are no real issue.

LankPantsSep 29, 20151 votes

Slight contradiction there. Neither are fun to play against.

That depends what you define fun to play against as, some people really hate heals, I don't. She's also loaded with counterplay since she has slim to no defensive abilities.

Also assassins right now are not really that prevalent.

The majority of top picks are assassins.

If anything they are weaker than normal ATM since they can't really assassinate juggernauts.

They don't have too, jugernauts are 100% bans. They're not even as popular as assassins in normals, where they can't be banned.

fukimissHarambeSep 28, 20151 votes

Lucky for you it's not the assassin meta!

LankPantsSep 29, 20151 votes

The majority of top picked champs are assassins.

Kat HeadSep 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The majority of top picked champs are assassins.

That is because people enjoy playing them, not everyone plays champions purely based on the power they bring. If these people were only concerned with winning they would be picking over powerd non mobile mages such as lux, viegar and annie. Crowd control wins games.

LaserDeathBladeSep 29, 20151 votes

But they're far from the highest win rate and they're definitely not the allies I'm looking to get in champ select

The Queen ViperSep 28, 20151 votes

Assassins = Cancer

LaserDeathBladeSep 29, 20151 votes

If your team is behind, Mages can waveclear for days. If your team is ahead, Mages have superior siege. If the game is tied, Mages have the best kits for breaking that tie. As long as you ward, play smart and don't die 24/7, Mages can completely dictate the pace of a game like no other class because they're naturally in the 'advantaged' position because in a non-all in situation they're the only class that can harass and make trades, whereas the burden of killing them lies with the other classes. Mages only weakness is immobility which can be overcome by not being retarded or building a Zhonyas.

You might not think it's fun being killed a bunch of times by Lee Sin or Zed, but when it comes down to it Mages have a much stronger influence over the outcome of a game than pretty much any other class let alone assassins because they have the tools to stall a losing match or snowball a winning match. I'd say without strong Assassins, Mages would be way too powerful and the game would be much worse because it puts too much influence into the hands of 1 player.

BluePolarizerSep 29, 20151 votes

I disagree. ADC is the #1 class because every game revolves around getting the ADC fed and they are mandatory to pick.

If behind, ADCs can waveclear for days Jinx Sivir Varus Kalista Tristana Graves item 3087 or simply farm champions because they have amazing duelist kits Vayne . If ahead, ADCs will pentakill your entire team. If tied, the game is decided by who has the ADC survive longer.

The meta is defined by which class can either shut down the enemy ADC or peel for your own ADC. When people say the tank meta, they actually mean "the ADC meta where the tanks effectively CC and burst the enemy ADC while peeling for yours". When people say the assassin meta, they actually mean "the ADC meta where assassins shut down the enemy ADC before they can react". If it was truly an assassin meta, they'd replace Vayne with a Fizz or Zed or something. But they don't. There's always an ADC on a team.