Anyone Who Cannot Beat/Deal With Silver Zed Should Not Be Taken Seriously On Assassin Balance

WitchQueen Annie·Apr 26, 2018·16 votes·3,551 views

This is going to be a bit sharp but I'm just going to throw this out there.

Anyone who cannot beat/deal with a Silver/Bronze Zed should not be taken seriously on topics about assassin balance.

His kit is LOADED with counterplay both in lane and out of lane and any player worth his salt (i.e. anyone who's played mid for more than 100 games after level 30) should have had PLENTY of experience facing/studying Zed's kit to know it can be counter played.

If you can't beat a Silver/Bronze Zed (which is what you're going to be facing in Normals when he's "busted" on the casual tier lists), then why should you be taken seriously on the topic of assassin balance?

I mean... the counterplay is in your face. Its right there. If you've spend even 10 games facing a Zed/playing as Zed you would know his weaknesses.

He has 20+ second windows in which he is USELESS in lane.

His kit is designed for 1 vs 1 in a game where Zhonyas exists and where the emphasis is on 3 vs 3s/5 vs 5s. He's mechanically UNRELIABLE.

Banning Zed is also the most ignorant thing possible.

He can be counterpicked... not just from mid but also from bot lane and top. Tell me one other decent Mid who can be counterpicked by a freaking Support.

TLDR...

If you can't beat a Silver/Bronze Zed on average after 100 games past level 30... then your opinions on assassin balance should not be taken seriously

51 Comments

LilBadWitchApr 26, 201812 votes

Over the last month North American Zed Has a 56.98% win rate in Masters Has a 53.64% win rate in Diamond Has a 52.57% win rate in Platinum

(According to op.gg's data for NA as of this post)

Apparently "Silvers" aren't the only ones who have problems playing against Zed .

NyarlathοtepApr 26, 20185 votes

Dont bother trying to reason with lannister gold. He is way too biased.

TyroneWatermelonApr 26, 201810 votes

“Much counterplay”

play like a coward against him because he spams Q all lane and focus on dodging but you can’t dodge and bait all the timeand wait for that one time he catches you with shuriken teleport electrocute
bullying is pointless because he can clear waves as an assassin with no real resource, last hitting from afar and having handicapped style passive to help him last hit minions, while you struggle to manage your mana while he also gets hexdrinker
virtually ungankable unless your jungler sits and masturbates in your bush for half a minute to catch him with his W on cd
Point and click gap closer, followed by Duskblade Proc Shadow slash miss shurikens another auto attack but kill anyway with electrocute and base damage
even after a humiliating assassination fail he press R like ekko to run away with his tail buttplug

The only ‘counter-play’ is to literally Defy death with hourglass, guardian angel or a fishy bargain, or get jacked off by your local Lulu/Janna abuser that sucks at anything but Spamming buffs at you

AirKingNeoApr 26, 20186 votes

As Rubick (Master tier EUW guy) said during a scrim game with some team the opponent picked Zed mid and they flamed the fuck out of him because he was useless and had no waveclear.

Clev3r0n3Apr 26, 20185 votes

There was very recently a diamond player that wrote about how unbelievably hard silver is this season, he said it's actually harder than diamond because at least in diamond most people semi know what to do, but in silver you just have to pray for a team that's not a complete trash heap. So honestly it doesn't matter if they don't know how to deal with zed silver or zed diamond, the difference isn't in rankings it's in knowing how to deal with zed in general.

big boi edriApr 26, 20184 votes

Yeah that’s not the case, I’ve climbed out of silver on 3 accounts with relative ease and I’m only mid gold on my highest one.

If he’s Diamond and found Silver hard to climb out of, he’s either boosted or picking champs that can’t carry.

Clev3r0n3Apr 26, 20183 votes

Dude he's saying that this year silver is way harder than any other year. And he's right, at no other time could 1 player cost you the game every time. But right now they can and do.

ShablagooApr 26, 20181 votes

It isnt any different in gold

341123545652Apr 26, 20185 votes

Yea whenever I read an absurdly anti zed circlejerk comment, often times the first thing I do is look up their account on op.gg, nearly everytime its someone from bronze - gold5. Could be coincidence but just something I noticed personally.

ZedUsanGovosApr 26, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Yea whenever I read an absurdly anti zed circlejerk comment, often times the first thing I do is look up their account on op.gg, nearly everytime its someone from bronze - gold5. Could be coincidence but just something I noticed personally.

It's no coincidence. Four of the most infamous anti-Zed circlejerkers on these Boards are all low elo.

Correction: Five of them are low elo. I just found an old friend on this thread lmfao.

Devilreaper XIIIApr 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Genesis Xer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUt2dgNk,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-04-26T12:16:08.240+0000)

It's no coincidence. Four of the most infamous anti-Zed circlejerkers on these Boards are all low elo.

Correction: Five of them are low elo. I just found an old friend on this thread lmfao.

lol i don't care about elo or climbing, normals are too easy so thats the only reason i play ranked, i started ranked i think season 3 or 4 O.o could be season 2, but elo means nothing..... whether you play ranked or normals though there is an equal amount of trolls -.-

i'm not anti zed i'm just anti his kit/damage assassins are for picking off solo roamers, yet assassins can jump in 1vs5 and kill 2 at least O.o its easy to spot a good or a bad zed, good zeds waveclear with shurikens, the bad ones use shadow to opt out of waves -.-

[{quoted}](name=Genesis Xer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUt2dgNk,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-04-26T12:25:14.319+0000)

Coming from a mage main who has complained time and time again that Zed has no counterplay OMEGALUL.

he doesn't have counterplay, zhonya is not a counter nor is stopwatch, they are situational items that allow you to avoid damage, zed's ult not excluded. not every champ has shield and shields don't always prevent you from zed his ult. yes it can help, but don't forget you are playing 5vs5 so if 1 person gets killed by zed, zed snowballs like crazy and becomes practically unstoppable :/ so many champions can't kill popping their ult and than have no other means to cause damage, mainly supports are what i'm talking about, relying on abilities and mana, whereas zed relies on basic attacks and energy, and energy regenerates FASTER than mana...... both energy and mana gain 1% regen with BLUE buff. zed can opt out of cc with shadow, so if zed gets caught its the player's fault for miscalulating the situation O.o so cc doesn't help zhonya has a longer cd than zed his ult, stopwatch is 1 use only, and the chance 5 opponets have a shield is lower than winning the lottery..... so yes assassin mains should start using their brains, isntead of trying to solo pick off, roam with a teammate..... coordinate and choose/make your oppertunities carefully.

ZedUsanGovosApr 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUt2dgNk,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-04-26T21:15:43.020+0000)

lol i don't care about elo or climbing, normals are too easy so thats the only reason i play ranked, i started ranked i think season 3 or 4 O.o could be season 2, but elo means nothing..... whether you play ranked or normals though there is an equal amount of trolls -.-

i'm not anti zed i'm just anti his kit/damage assassins are for picking off solo roamers, yet assassins can jump in 1vs5 and kill 2 at least O.o its easy to spot a good or a bad zed, good zeds waveclear with shurikens, the bad ones use shadow to opt out of waves -.-

Assassins are for solo fights. But certain champions like Katarina, Zed, Ekko, and Fizz are good at fighting 1-2 (at most 3) people at once simply because of their kit. Talon is only good for solo kills. As are Rengar and Kha'Zix.

he doesn't have counterplay, zhonya is not a counter nor is stopwatch, they are situational items that allow you to avoid damage, zed's ult not excluded.

Yes, they are. Was QSS a counter? It also allows you around 2~ seconds of invulnerability to either be saved by an ally or to flash out immediately and escape. In addition, it completely nullifies Zed's ultimate and/or ultimate damage if timed correctly.

not every champ has shield and shields don't always prevent you from zed his ult.

Which is why you build a team around Zed. Lulu/Janna, Vayne/Tristana botlane. A Zed counter mid. A tank top, and someone like Kha'Zix or Shaco JG.

yes it can help, but don't forget you are playing 5vs5 so if 1 person gets killed by zed, zed snowballs like crazy and becomes practically unstoppable :/

Zed can't snowball off of one single kill. He needs to be like, 3/0 in order to actually wreck players.

so many champions can't kill popping their ult and than have no other means to cause damage, mainly supports are what i'm talking about, relying on abilities and mana, whereas zed relies on basic attacks and energy, and energy regenerates FASTER than mana......

And energy also gets expended faster than mana. There aren't energy runes anymore. Nor are there energy items. Supports aren't meant to deal damage either.

both energy and mana gain 1% regen with BLUE buff.

And...? That's supposed to justify Zed being broken... how?

zed can opt out of cc with shadow, so if zed gets caught its the player's fault for miscalulating the situation O.o

He can't opt out of CC. If it's point and click, he still gets hit even if he swaps shadows. If Morg's Q hits Zed right before he swaps, he'll still swap but be CC'd.

so cc doesn't help zhonya has a longer cd than zed his ult, stopwatch is 1 use only, and the chance 5 opponets have a shield is lower than winning the lottery.....

CC does help, Zhonya's can still help in a teamfight, Stopwatch helps prevent that potential early lead, and only the support needs shielding. Hence, Lulu or Janna.

so yes assassin mains should start using their brains, isntead of trying to solo pick off, roam with a teammate.....

Perhaps everyone else should use their brains to play against assassins, instead of being shit on by them and then taking to the Boards to bitch about it.

coordinate and choose/make your oppertunities carefully.

Right back at you.

Devilreaper XIIIApr 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Genesis Xer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUt2dgNk,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-27T13:27:55.536+0000)

Yes, they are. Was QSS a counter? It also allows you around 2~ seconds of invulnerability to either be saved by an ally or to flash out immediately and escape. In addition, it completely nullifies Zed's ultimate and/or ultimate damage if timed correctly.

its not a specific counter against ults, they are situational activatable items

Which is why you build a team around Zed. Lulu/Janna, Vayne/Tristana botlane. A Zed counter mid. A tank top, and someone like Kha'Zix or Shaco JG.

if you get to counterpick.

Zed can't snowball off of one single kill. He needs to be like, 3/0 in order to actually wreck players.

nonesense... he just needs 1 kill like every other assassin.

And energy also gets expended faster than mana. There aren't energy runes anymore. Nor are there energy items. Supports aren't meant to deal damage either.

eh no... it costs zed 165 energy tops with all abilities on level 1 he has 200 energy max with 35 energy left energy regen is 50 per 5 seconds, 50 + 50 + 30 + 35 = 165 meaning it takes zed 13 seconds to use 2 abilities again. by 22 seconds he can do 3 abilities and by 120 he gets to ult again. which is faster than the average champion..... and zed his ult is costless. zed can stay in lane forever if he doesn't get damage.

And...? That's supposed to justify Zed being broken... how?

lol just mentioned both mana and energy get the same bonus.

He can't opt out of CC. If it's point and click, he still gets hit even if he swaps shadows. If Morg's Q hits Zed right before he swaps, he'll still swap but be CC'd.

but he's safe, especially if he opts out of range or uses QSS.

CC does help, Zhonya's can still help in a teamfight, Stopwatch helps prevent that potential early lead, and only the support needs shielding. Hence, Lulu or Janna.

cc can help, but its rare..... zhonya takes too long to build, stopwatch is 1 use only, not every match has janna or lulu O.o and 1 shield doesn't actually stop an assassin... unless the assassin doesn't keep the shield in mind....

Perhaps everyone else should use their brains to play against assassins, instead of being shit on by them and then taking to the Boards to bitch about it.

if even standing under your own tower doesn't help anymore.... thats the problem with asassins you can't counter them, zhonya takes too long to build, stopwatch is 1 times use, no champ has 24/7 hard cc and no champ has 24/7 shield, so when assassins tower dive and oneshot you and dash/jump/blink/shadow away how are we supposed to play? remain in base? not much anyone can do tbh..... you don't even have to to react... whereas you can certainly react to most cc and sidestep it.....

Right back at you. lol read the above.

DOUBLE TAPPED EApr 26, 20184 votes

Zed used WQE! Katarina avoided the attack! Katarina used EWQ! A critical hit! It's super effective! Zed used Flash! But it failed! Katarina used Ignite! Zed took damage from Ignite. Zed tried to run away. No! There's no running from a trainer battle! Zed took damage from Ignite. Zed tried to run away. No! There's no running from a trainer battle! Zed took damage from ignite. Zed fainted! Katarina gained 20 LP! Katarina leveled up!

RevaliApr 26, 20183 votes

People who can whine about zed their arguments can be summed up in 3 words

'but muh damage'

TotalJerkApr 26, 20183 votes

The problem isn't his kit though. He is overtuned.

ManBearPygApr 26, 20182 votes

Do players in Silver/Bronze get taken seriously on any topics pertaining to game play and balance? There's a reason we're in Silver/Bronze, and its not because of our elite laning. YI, Zed, Darius, etc are banned often because teams dont work together, can't cc champs like yi, etc. Who cares, you can still ban who you want.

AsterfixApr 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Do players in Silver/Bronze get taken seriously on any topics pertaining to game play and balance? There's a reason we're in Silver/Bronze, and its not because of our elite laning. YI, Zed, Darius, etc are banned often because teams dont work together, can't cc champs like yi, etc. Who cares, you can still ban who you want.

I don't think players in general get taken seriously about anything. Submit a ticket won't let me log in to submit a ticket and after making posts about it in the help section I got nothing. So not only can I not submit a ticket about an actual problem but I can't even get a response on why my particular submit a ticket request is blocking me out.

MhihnjApr 26, 20182 votes

The common mistake people do against Zed is Back off when he has used his WEQ to harass instead of retaliating properly.

NyarlathοtepApr 26, 20183 votes

We back off once after his weq (if we get dmged that is) because usually we are on about 30% of our hp. A proc from his passive and an ignite is more than enough to kill us.

ZedUsanGovosApr 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

We back off once after his weq (if we get dmged that is) because usually we are on about 30% of our hp. A proc from his passive and an ignite is more than enough to kill us.

Here's a cool idea. Try moving. WoAg. Moving helps people dOdgE aBilItiEs?!1/!? WoAHG YOU'RE TEllIng ME tHAt gEttIng hIt bY aLl hIs DamAge aNd aN EleCtroProc iS sUppOSed to PunIsh pLayErs???!???!1/ wOw.

NyarlathοtepApr 26, 2018

You do know that if you get hit by his w-e you are also getting slowed right? Good luck evading an almost point blank range q under a slow as an immobile mage.

ZedUsanGovosApr 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You do know that if you get hit by his w-e you are also getting slowed right? Good luck evading an almost point blank range q under a slow as an immobile mage.

You do know that getting hit by one Q is far better than being hit by two?

You also do know it's called moving unpredictably? So that even if Zed does manage to hit WE, his Q would be thrown off massively.

NyarlathοtepApr 26, 2018

Again, under the effects of a slow, sidestepping becomes increasingly difficult. And dont you dare say "evade w-e", when his w has a speed of 1750 (for a reference his q has 900) and his e has a radius of 290? Again as an immobile champ chances are that you cant do it in time.

ZedUsanGovosApr 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Again, under the effects of a slow, sidestepping becomes increasingly difficult. And dont you dare say "evade w-e", when his w has a speed of 1750 (for a reference his q has 900) and his e has a radius of 290? Again as an immobile champ chances are that you cant do it in time.

Again, it's called moving unpredictably. It's not an instant-hit like a projectile. It's also not that fast.

Stop acting like immobile champs are poor, weak, slow champions who cannot do anything against Zed. That's completely false and utterly retarded. Half of his counters are immobile, and all of them can lane against him well. His WEQ has simple counterplay.

Move unpredictably. It's just like any other skillshot. And it has a 22 sec CD. It's not difficult to not get hit. I've dodged Zed's WEQ. People have dodged my WEQ. It's not a Herculean task.

NyarlathοtepApr 26, 2018

Again, it's called moving unpredictably. It's not an instant-hit like a projectile. It's also not that fast.

Indeed its not instant. But the speed is high enough to be almost impossible to avoid it. Couple it with the big ass e radius and its nigh impossible to avoid if you are immobile and the zed player knows what he is doing.

Stop acting like immobile champs are poor, weak, slow champions who cannot do anything against Zed. Half of his counters are immobile, and all of them can lane against him well. His WEQ has simple counterplay.

I never said they are weak. I just stated a fact. Immobile mages (that dont outright counter him ofc) have limited choices against him (especially those that rely on skillshots). Zed is made to counter those kind of mages. Besides mages on average are slow. The highest base movement speed currently is on rumble (345) . The rest of mages have 340 or less.

Move unpredictably. It's just like any other skillshot. And it has a 22 sec CD. It's not difficult to not get hit. I've dodged Zed's WEQ. People have dodged my WEQ. It's not a Herculean task.

Do you even know how to read? You can only cover that much distance when his w-e is so damn fast. His w is too fast for most mages to evade (provided they are around 650 range ofc). You are either in denial, or you confuse it with them simply being out of the initial range. Sure the cd give a chance to fight back without being in danger of getting chunked, but since its so easy to get hit by said w-e its most of the times not worth. Especially since he is going to just play safe until his w is up again.

ZedUsanGovosApr 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Indeed its not instant. But the speed is high enough to be almost impossible to avoid it. Couple it with the big ass e radius and its nigh impossible to avoid if you are immobile and the zed player knows what he is doing.

You're exaggerating the E radius. If the Zed player knows what he's doing, you better be playing Vlad or Zilean instead of Cassiopeia. If you can play either of those two correctly against him, it's an ez stomp lane.

I never said they are weak. I just stated a fact. Immobile mages (that dont outright counter him ofc) have limited choices against him (especially those that rely on skillshots). Zed is made to counter those kind of mages. Besides mages on average are slow. The highest base movement speed currently is on rumble (345) . The rest of mages have 340 or less.

Then don't pick them against him lmao. It's not a difficult process. You see Zed? Take Vlad. Vlad banned? Take Morg. Support already Morg? Pick Annie. Annie banned? Pick Malz. They gain more movement speed over the course of the game, and champs who take Phase Rush can gain more speed.

Do you even know how to read? You can only cover that much distance when his w-e is so damn fast. His w is too fast for most mages to evade (provided they are around 650 range ofc). You are either in denial, or you confuse it with them simply being out of the initial range. Sure the cd give a chance to fight back without being in danger of getting chunked, but since its so easy to get hit by said w-e its most of the times not worth. Especially since he is going to just play safe until his w is up again.

Do you even know how to play? His Qs have a fairly small hitbox. You just need to turn to another side. You aren't getting a 99% slow. Dozens of people I've seen have dodged only ONE shuriken, and I end up dealing no damage to them because there's no Electroproc. If you REALLY just cannot dodge it, then take Resolve secondary. Bone Plating+Second Wind. There's a myriad of things you can do to reduce damage as an immobile mage. While he's playing safe, push in the wave under turret. Punish him for trying to last hit instead of using Q. Then after around 20~ seconds, back off and play safely. Bait out his W by having your jungler come by and spook Zed into W-ing under turret, then continue pushing the lane. Or play Vlad, with infinite sustain and an untargetability.

NyarlathοtepApr 27, 2018

You're exaggerating the E radius

Im not exaggerating. Go check it. Or rather here let me help you. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zed

If the Zed player knows what he's doing, you better be playing Vlad or Zilean instead of Cassiopeia. If you can play either of those two correctly against him, it's an ez stomp lane.

What if i told you that i prefer to pick my most comfortable pick in ranked.

Then don't pick them against him lmao

Sometimes you just end up being first pick.

Do you even know how to play? His Qs have a fairly small hitbox

Indeed he has, again. You can only move so much when his e is going to slow you by 20%. (340 avrg speed of mage -20%=272) Sometimes you will evade it (or at least 1 shuriken) some others you wont. But the chances of getting hit by 2 are much higher when you are slowed.

Dozens of people I've seen have dodged only ONE shuriken

Cool. And I've seen double those dozens, being hit by two shurikens.

If you REALLY just cannot dodge it, then take Resolve secondary

I would gladly do it. But i cant since im always banning him. Now i know that you are wondering," why do you whine if you ban him". Because sometimes i end up having to play in blind. Though i hate him mostly because he is really not that great of a balance decisions (his kit i mean). Unless you outright conter him, they only way to win (provided he isnt braindamaged ofc) is to have your jungler camp you. Which is difficult to do so when you are solo.

Devilreaper XIIIApr 26, 20182 votes

assassin mains need to start using brains.

ZedUsanGovosApr 26, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUt2dgNk,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-04-26T07:52:51.559+0000)

assassin mains need to start using brains.

Coming from a mage main who has complained time and time again that Zed has no counterplay OMEGALUL.

Reaper SorakaApr 26, 20181 votes

He's tough to deal with for me, but I don't play mid too much. Usually Ahri or Annie.

When I do, he either uses his WEQ to waveclear which I cannot punish him because he's under his pushing wave, OR he used it on me and I'm a little too low to chase him under his wave.

The best results I have against him is just rushing Vamp scepter into hextech gunblade. I can recover a bit of his damage with vamp since i have to constantly auto to keep his wave out of my tower. Hextech lets me keep up in healing as items are built and burst him as fast as he does me. Zhonya's second, of course.

SnugglePuggle94Apr 26, 20181 votes

If you resort to attacking people like this because they are lower rank, and use that as an argument that their opinions are worthless, then I won't be taking you seriously.

Zed has less counterplay than you make him seem, and Zhonya's has been nerfed heavily, along with the stupid ult cd buff he got, he can ult over three times in the timespan that the 120 second cooldown is taking to cooldown.

SîlenceApr 26, 20181 votes

Im only speaking for around the top couple percent here on the boards, but I am much more inclined to listen to higher elo players than some bronze/gold player. By no means is this to degrade someone, however your knowledge for the subject isn’t vast enough for the job.

SnugglePuggle94Apr 26, 20181 votes

That's just mean. You don't know how much knowledge anyone has on any subject, so don't toss them to the side just because they are lower elo than you.

Scary DoorApr 26, 20181 votes

Zed has a 57% win rate in Master Tier currently. It isn't just Bronze/Silver that hate Zed. Ironic that you would rank shame, when you are barely out of Silver yourself, oh well, you look hungry, I'll feed you a downvote.

/thread

VekknaApr 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Scary Door,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUt2dgNk,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2018-04-26T14:13:23.282+0000) you look hungry

Thirsty is more like it.

VekknaApr 26, 20181 votes

The problem with Zed is that each rank in Q significantly increases his W damage without having to actually rank W. Then again at level 6, he starts triple-dipping those skill ranks in Q.

As I've said many times and in many places, assassin players and their enemies would have a much better experience if Riot would stop cramming so much of assassins' power/scaling into 2-3 abilities. This includes Zed's W, Akali's W, Kat's W, Talon's E, Panth's W, Kayn's E, Zoe's R, and so on.

Most of the time this creates oppressive power spikes and overpowered early damage, but by level 14 you're not getting damage from skill ranks anymore (except at 16). This causes a sharp drop-off in relative power as most other champs are gaining more damage from those skill points.

Zed and Pantheon are the worst offenders in this regard. Wouldn't it make everyone happier if they had early damage shifted to other skills, functioned better in late game, were less team-reliant for their win condition (closing games early), and still had higher win rates on average?

Like...I don't see why that isn't something everyone could agree on. Except for the set of players who enjoy feeling like gods and getting free gold until, like, level 10.

WitchQueen AnnieApr 27, 20181 votes

how can they function better in late game when in late game everyone gets Stasis, groups together, and many characters does as much damage as you can except from 200+ meters away with greater reliability and AOE?

VoraciousXApr 26, 20181 votes

The problem with Zed is that he only has to land one W>E>Q and you're dead. His W>E slows you long enough to where it's near impossible to dodge his double shuriken. If he lands one W>E>Q and has his ultimate, you're not likely to survive as long as he has a Serrated Dirk(and definitely if he has duskblade), whether you've dumpstered him until this point or not. If he doesn't have his ultimate, he can return to the W, auto, ignite, and you'll still likely die. It all comes from the moment he gets any minor amount of lethality. I feel the problem with this isn't Zed himself though(although he does have a lot more damage than he needs imo in his abilities), but more lethality. They changed Lethality a while back to where you get more early, and I feel this is where things started going wrong for Zed. Other assassins have to work harder to get their damage off, because they're close range champions, while Zed is more like an AD caster.

Thankfully for me, when I face Zed I just go dark harvest on Kat and he can't fight me. I've made Zed's literally ragequit with this and I love it(Although now I pretty much go dark harvest on Kat all the time).

WitchQueen AnnieApr 27, 20181 votes

1 WEQ auto combo cannot 100-0 you in lane unless he's already fed or poked you down somehow.

It is true that later on in the game, if even or ahead and he catches you by surprise, a single WEQ-auto-Ignite combo can 100-0 you.

However, it seems completely fair in light of the fact that the game is loaded with potential counterpicks against him (ex Lulu, Janna, Taric, Kayle etc) and everyone has access to the Zhonyas active in some way or another now (whether through a GA, runes, or the hourglass).

Also as everyone says, a 3+ item ADC does as much damage as he does except from longer range.

He does need to be a threat and if he doesn't deal damage, then why not just pick a safe wave clear mage with guaranteed late game impact?

VoraciousXApr 27, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lannister Gold ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUt2dgNk,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2018-04-27T02:03:21.422+0000)

1 WEQ auto combo cannot 100-0 you in lane unless he's already fed or poked you down somehow.

It is true that later on in the game, if even or ahead and he catches you by surprise, a single WEQ-auto-Ignite combo can 100-0 you.

However, it seems completely fair in light of the fact that the game is loaded with potential counterpicks against him (ex Lulu, Janna, Taric, Kayle etc) and everyone has access to the Zhonyas active in some way or another now (whether through a GA, runes, or the hourglass).

Also as everyone says, a 3+ item ADC does as much damage as he does except from longer range.

He does need to be a threat and if he doesn't deal damage, then why not just pick a safe wave clear mage with guaranteed late game impact?

If a Zed has a dirk, his damage goes out of the roof compared to other assassins, especially AP assassins, because they can't get magic pen in their core item(and it costs way more). I have had Zed's slice through me like butter with one combo and an auto+ignite after killing them at least 1 time in lane and being up in CS. Luckily my new standard build obliterates him and I usually have a full item before he has half of one.

WitchQueen AnnieApr 27, 20181 votes

AP assassins generally have more reliable methods of dealing damage though so it seems fair

Zed must land multiple Qs.

Kassadin doesn't have hard skills to land, Kat's skills are AOE and easier to land, Akali is point and click and so forth...

I might say Fizz needs higher numbers but his kit is already overloaded and has a far far guaranteed greater advantage laning vs mages than Zed (he doesn't even have to throw his Ult, just continuously zone with it).

AzadetheApr 27, 20181 votes

Wrong.

Kass needs people to spam abilities and lacks post ult play.

Kat has a higher skill cap than Zed, because you actually have no control over where daggers drop. You actually have to learn how to time and chain them in small corridors with few options for where daggers can fall to cross large distances. Watch a Kat in Masters play her and then watch a Bronze one. Kat in Bronze doesn't cross 2000 range. a Kat in Masters does, and can do so until 3-4 champs are dead.

Zed you can secure everything hits, because it's just fixed geometry.

Akali falls off hard because CC and non targetted skill shots drop her and teams coordinate. She is the easiest in Bronze though.

WitchQueen AnnieApr 27, 20181 votes

if Kat can cross 2000 range then the fact that Zed has better itemisation is balanced.

Akali falls off hard... and so does Zed. Its much easier to play Akali optimally in lane then Zed because Akali doesn't have to aim anything. And so Zed being higher risk reward early with the stronger dirk makes sense.

VoraciousXApr 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lannister Gold ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUt2dgNk,comment-id=000f000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-27T02:34:46.715+0000)

AP assassins generally have more reliable methods of dealing damage though so it seems fair

Zed must land multiple Qs.

Kassadin doesn't have hard skills to land, Kat's skills are AOE and easier to land, Akali is point and click and so forth...

I might say Fizz needs higher numbers but his kit is already overloaded and has a far far guaranteed greater advantage laning vs mages than Zed (he doesn't even have to throw his Ult, just continuously zone with it).

Except the only thing he has to land to land those qs is his W>E, since it slows by a crazy amount. Zed just stays back and tries to land a W>E>Q, and if he does he goes in, if he doesn't he just farms until his W is back up again or you initiate, then he ults.

The Bearded BardApr 27, 20181 votes

I agree that he has a lot of counterplay, but he's also annoying to play against so I'm going to keep banning him every game.

AzadetheApr 27, 20181 votes

Vs an experienced Zed player, none of this is actually true. Zed can outwait a Zhonya's, bait it out, and can kill you with skills outside of his ult.

The counterplay exists, but it just doesn't do enough to be credible. if Zed has 3 Shadows out, it doesn't matter if you do something to mitigate his ult. He can kill you with the shadows instead.

I know the topic is about Bronze/Silver, but I have played Zed twice since 2014, and can STILL 13/8 him while ham handing his kit. I don't ult people with Zhonya's Up. I don't waste too much of my kit knocking out a GA. I suck at maximizing his skill order, but I sure as heck don't let items counterplay me. On ANY champ.