Please, if you really want to rework Darius and Garen, don't f*cking ruin them.

Agidyne·Jul 31, 2015·30 votes·2,974 views

Please, for all that is sacred, don't put as much counterplay in them as there is in someone like Sion where the enemies can always f*cking sidestep your ult unless they were CC'd before or you caught them in a very small angle in which they cannot escape.

It's almost never up to me to land the ult, it's up to my enemies to dodge it.

Anyway, back to Darius & Garen.

They are lane bullies, they have always been.

They are supposed to make the enemy laner feel like shit unless the enemy laner is a lane bully himself.

As a trade-off, they don't scale to late game aswell as other top laners and despite being somewhat strong in a 1v1 or 1v2 scenario, they are still inferior versions of someone like Jax.

But we all know what's going to happen.

Garen will probably lose his Silence simply because of "muh counterplay".

And Noxian Guillotine will have a "can only be casted on Slowed targets with at least 3 stacks of Hemorrage after 5 seconds of being in combat that will root Darius in place and force Jarvan to record a One night stand with Fiora with Teemo and Evelynn watching it in the background" slapped on it's tooltip.

45 Comments

PraetorAmalthusJul 31, 201513 votes

Ist already stated by Meddler that in case of Garen the removal of the silence is not necessary ( due to counterplay, funny) Example: Kassadin pre-nerf with his silence vs Garen. YOu Play...lets saaay... Viktor. Kassadin hops in your face, silences, plops all his damage, hops away and the s wears of. You can not do shit against it, he suddenly jumps in your face. Now Garen. His sword glows you know what Comes now, playe your w and run away. There is the counterplay. you know what follows and can prevent it. And Garen cant really 100-0 you in a second so yeah he is going to Keep it.

AgidyneJul 31, 20152 votes

Well, thank god.

A Miss FortuneJul 31, 20151 votes

I still don't like such a long silence in a colossal tank. Garen is a REALLY good tank, he can ignore a lot of CC similar to Irelia, and he can get a lot more Armor and Magic Resistance. Though I don't really think he should have a silence or such a long silence, it just doesn't fit his kit. I would say just reduce his silence. It's not really that overpowered, but I don't feel like one of the best tanks (in my opinion) should have such a long one on top of his movement speed buff.

Ser GarlandJul 31, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUs9uVbh,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-07-31T15:17:08.520+0000)

I still don't like such a long silence in a colossal tank. Garen is a REALLY good tank, he can ignore a lot of CC similar to Irelia, and he can get a lot more Armor and Magic Resistance. Though I don't really think he should have a silence or such a long silence, it just doesn't fit his kit. I would say just reduce his silence. It's not really that overpowered, but I don't feel like one of the best tanks (in my opinion) should have such a long one on top of his movement speed buff.

Cho'gath

A Miss FortuneJul 31, 20153 votes

Am I the only one that thinks Cho'gath is basically freelo?

He has a ton of sustain on top of the offensive masteries that you get for killing minions, so even poke lanes don't really work that well.

He has a lot of CC with stupid range and are so easy to hit, and he can easily knock-up, slow, and silence an entire team for 5 seconds of CC total, all doing damage as well.

If he gets ahead he's impossible to kill since he's a tank, and can easily just Q > R the enemy ADC.

If he's behind he can still instakill most squishy people and since his ult does true damage, it isn't hard for him to kill tanks either. Even if not, he still has a ridiculous amount of CC.

I've heard mixed opinions. Some think he's overpowered but has counterplay, some think he's balanced.

TheI3igDaddyAug 1, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUs9uVbh,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2015-07-31T17:39:32.924+0000)

Am I the only one that thinks Cho'gath is basically freelo?

He has a ton of sustain on top of the offensive masteries that you get for killing minions, so even poke lanes don't really work that well.

You don't beat a Cho'gath by randomly poking him whenever your skills are off cooldown. He doesn't give a shit. You're supposed to beat his FACE in early on, and then zone him from farm. If he can't farm, he can't heal. Denying farm is the number one thing you can do to fuck Cho up early on, since he loses out on both gold and healing. Unfortunately some people aren't as aggressive as they should be against him.

He has a lot of CC with stupid range and are so easy to hit, and he can easily knock-up, slow, and silence an entire team for 5 seconds of CC total, all doing damage as well.

Q does have good range but it's delayed, along with the short foot stomp animation he does beforehand. Silence is good too, but he can only fire it in one direction and hope that he hits people. Cho excels in teamfights for this very reason, you want to know how to counter it?

DON'T FUCKING GROUP UP IN A BALL. Cho's eyes instantly light up at that. You need to spread out and force him to make a decision.

If he gets ahead he's impossible to kill since he's a tank, and can easily just Q > R the enemy ADC.

Cho's a slow fatass who has to deal with an entire frontline if he ever wants to kill the enemy carry. If said carry dies, then that's either shitty positioning on their part, or their teammates can't peel at all.

If he's tanky, he doesn't have to damage to nuke someone. If he does have said damage, he's actually possible to kill. Really. Pay attention to his build. AP Cho might LOOK menacing, but that's an illusion that he wants to you believe. If multiple people dump on him, he's going to die.

If he's behind he can still instakill most squishy people and since his ult does true damage, it isn't hard for him to kill tanks either. Even if not, he still has a ridiculous amount of CC.

If you kick Cho in the balls hard enough, he won't have the damage to kill anything. And what the fuck are you saying that 'because his ult does true damage, he can kill tanks too'. True damage is COUNTERED by building health, something that tanks do? Quite often? Cho also lacks any %health damage in his kit. So guess what, if you buy a Banshee's Veil or Spirit Visage, you're neutering his damage hard.

I've heard mixed opinions. Some think he's overpowered but has counterplay, some think he's balanced.

Cho's one of the most balanced champions in the game. He trades mobility and dueling potential for amazing AOE disruption, sustain, and strong base damages on his abilities. I wrote a longass guide on him, so if you really want my insight on how to counter him, I can post the link and you can look at the lane and jungle matchups.

A Miss FortuneAug 1, 20151 votes

The guy with a broken 650 point and click true damage ult that scales off 70% of his AP and also indicates when it will kill the target has no dueling potential lol?

So basically he trades mobility for everything else in the game? CC, damage, sustain, tankiness, range.

TheI3igDaddyAug 1, 20151 votes

Feast doesn't do 650 base true damage until he's level 16, and by then, EVERY CHAMPION in the game will have much more health than that. Even the squishy carries will have anywhere from 1800-2000 health or so. That's basically a third of their health bar if Cho decides to go full tank. Enemy tanks will have more health and thus will take less %damage from it.

And yes, Cho will usually build some AP and make that true damage higher, but he can only hit one champion with it. He's not Captain KillSteal here Darius .

Cho has low dueling potential because he has no combat steroids. Olaf's W, Poppy's W, Trundle's W, these will all instantly boost their respective champions DPS and make them more powerful. Cho doesn't have something like that. This makes landing his CC extremely important, because if he misses, he's a sitting duck.

His sustain also falls off pretty badly after laning phase. He only heals when he (HE) kills something. He has no on-hit sustain like Irelia and Nasus. In teamfights, as long as you stay away from large waves of friendly minions, Cho has no sustain whatsoever for the fight.

A Miss FortuneAug 1, 20151 votes

tl;dr

cho'gath falls off late game, but since he's also a tank and has a long ranged AoE slow, knockup, and silence he doesn't really fall off and pretty much has everything but mobility.

TheI3igDaddyAug 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUs9uVbh,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-01T19:46:50.863+0000)

tl;dr

"I don't feel like discussing this anymore, I'm just going to keep my original opinion and ignore anyone defending another one."

A Miss FortuneAug 2, 20151 votes

Because it feels like you're just trying to defend a champion you love, which I understand perfectly, though you relatively provide no actual weaknesses aside from him having no mobility.

Him having not dueling potential is a lie, since he can 100-0 most squishy people and his ultimate allows him to not really struggle with tanks that much. Obviously there are matchups that he loses to, though making a mistake post-6 usually can result in a death and make Cho'gath even more difficult to deal with.

Him falling off late game is just totally inaccurate since he can instakill any ADC late game unless they're hypermobile freelo like Vayne, and even if he can't he still has more than enough tankiness and CC to provide for his team that he never really falls off.

TheI3igDaddyAug 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUs9uVbh,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-02T03:55:20.431+0000)

Because it feels like you're just trying to defend a champion you love, which I understand perfectly, though you relatively provide no actual weaknesses aside from him having no mobility.

Okay, here are a few more.

He reverse-snowballs if you can kill him post-6. He loses ult stacks on death, and that means he walks out of base with less max health. And that makes him easier to kill. You shouldn't just let Cho'Gath get max Feast stacks in lane, but some people just see his sustain and think 'well fuck this, he's not going to die' and leave him alone. That's what he wants. You need to GET IN HIS FACE.

Unfortunately, some champs just don't have the early damage to kill him.

You have to treat the lane like Nasus, but instead of preventing the dog from getting stronger damage-wise, you're preventing Cho from turning into a brick.

And while it's not technically a weakness, I consider his Vorpal Spikes a second passive. You don't need to turn them off, so he REALLY has 2 passives, 2 normal skills, and Feast. And due to the power creep of the game, his kit is lacking in comparison with newer champs. If Cho were released today, I guarantee you Vorpal Spikes would be the second part of his passive, and he'd have a new E entirely.

Him having not dueling potential is a lie, since he can 100-0 most squishy people and his ultimate allows him to not really struggle with tanks that much. Obviously there are matchups that he loses to, though making a mistake post-6 usually can result in a death and make Cho'gath even more difficult to deal with.

I don't think you get the difference between dueling and bursting. You're talking about bursting. If Cho bought AP and is somewhat fed, then yes his BURST combo can kill squishies. And shouldn't it? He causes a huge-ass tremor, screams your ears off, and then EATS you. He's alien Godzilla, it makes thematic sense.

I'm talking about dueling, AKA 'sitting there auto-attacking each other'. Cho can only duel if he builds specific items, like Wits End. Otherwise, champs that have lifesteal and magic resist can absorb that first chunk of damage and then continue to beat his face in, and then he's boned because he's slow and fat.

Him falling off late game is just totally inaccurate since he can instakill any ADC late game unless they're hypermobile freelo like Vayne, and even if he can't he still has more than enough tankiness and CC to provide for his team that he never really falls off.

I read my earlier posts and I didn't claim that he falls off as a whole lategame. I said his sustain falls off, and it does because he's not always sitting next to a big wave of enemy minions. In teamfights, he has next to no sustain and any damage you do to him will stick.

Cho's an anti-carry, you're right. Any opposing ADC's need to watch for Rupture, and once you see it go off, get out of the way. Then afterwards, your team needs to engage when it's on CD, because now Cho only has half of his CC available for the fight.

HeraldOfDemaciaJul 31, 20152 votes

The silence is the only form of crowd control that Garen has. The only way he can get more is to build a slowing item like Randuins or Frozen Mallet. That's why he needs it. Other top laners have just as much bullying potential and loads more CC (Pantheon, Wukong, etc. ). Garen is special because he has loads of resistances, loads of sustain, and a touch of soft cc. Literally he is a damage sponge that is successful because he can run in, soak damage, silence a priority, run out, heal up. Take away the silence and Garen cannot trade NEARLY as effectively in lane (which is already hard in a lot of matchups if the enemy knows how to control a minion wave), and he runs the risk of being blown up either in the midst of his damage soaking or on his way out of a fight.

A Miss FortuneJul 31, 20151 votes

But should Garen have CC, or instead more of a direct way of fighting the enemy? I don't know, I feel like Garen should kind of fulfill the knight-warrior role. He should be a tank by all means, though I feel like he should also be given access to damage aside from just spinning.

HeraldOfDemaciaAug 5, 20151 votes

Well Garen's ult, now and after the changes, is a MASSIVE amount of damage. Right now it's good for dealing with squishies after surviving crowd control and tanks mid-game and in team fights. With the changes, I feel like Garen will become a serious split-push threat. "Oh Garen is split pushing. He has good waveclear. We need to send someone to deal with him. Do we send our tank with tp? Yea that would be fine if he could stop the push but he can't. He'll just get shoved out of lane. Do we send our mid laner to waveclear? No we need him for fights. Let's send 3 people because that's the only way we can stop him and he will probably still get at least 1 kill because of the insane ult damage. GG their team pushed our nexus while we barely killed Garen."

Ser GarlandJul 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Ist already stated by Meddler that in case of Garen the removal of the silence is not necessary ( due to counterplay, funny) Example: Kassadin pre-nerf with his silence vs Garen. YOu Play...lets saaay... Viktor. Kassadin hops in your face, silences, plops all his damage, hops away and the s wears of. You can not do shit against it, he suddenly jumps in your face. Now Garen. His sword glows you know what Comes now, playe your w and run away. There is the counterplay. you know what follows and can prevent it. And Garen cant really 100-0 you in a second so yeah he is going to Keep it.

Yeah that's great and all, but when has Garen gone mid?

PraetorAmalthusJul 31, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUs9uVbh,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2015-07-31T16:42:03.873+0000)

Yeah that's great and all, but when has Garen gone mid?

After the 16 Minute~ mark for the teamfights lelele

JofeyyJul 31, 20157 votes

Ive seen it, its actually a cheese counter to yasuo, talon, and zed.

Rinky DinkyJul 31, 20152 votes

lmfao this is such a noob ass comment xD

PoskeAug 1, 20153 votes

Ehm so silence only counters midlane champions?

Sorry but silence counters everything Only few champions dont care about it

doombotMECHAAug 1, 20151 votes

silence is the reason garen gets to be an occasional counter to fotm bruisers--riven is actually kinda bad without her spells, darius can't axe while silenced, etc.

MongooseJul 31, 20155 votes

{quoted}

And Garen cant really 100-0 you

oh yes he can

Kuroi86Aug 1, 20155 votes

Garen item 3071 item 3074 item 3046 item 3031 item 3158 item 3026 For Spinmacia!!!

BârdAug 1, 20153 votes

You spin me right round baby right round like a record baby right round round round

AkabaneKunJul 31, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Twin Arrowguns,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUs9uVbh,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-31T10:04:16.088+0000)

And Noxian Guillotine will have a "can only be casted on Slowed targets with at least 3 stacks of Hemorrage after 5 seconds of being in combat that will root Darius in place and force Jarvan to record a One night stand with Fiora with Teemo and Evelynn watching it in the background" slapped on it's tooltip.

XD priceless.

And yes both ulties will be skillshots with 10+ more range for measure.

Zorae42Jul 31, 20152 votes

I just hope they don't over complicate Garen. There's been a trend of taking relatively simple champions and giving them some sort of new mechanic/mini game and making them much less simple to play.

I like that Garen is so easy. It lets me take a break from more difficult champs and not have to worry about skillshots or thinking to hard about what I'm doing. It's just spin to win :P

DJ Di0Jul 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I just hope they don't over complicate Garen. There's been a trend of taking relatively simple champions and giving them some sort of new mechanic/mini game and making them much less simple to play.

I like that Garen is so easy. It lets me take a break from more difficult champs and not have to worry about skillshots or thinking to hard about what I'm doing. It's just spin to win :P

The problem with these champions is that they're hard to balance /because/ they're so simple. Champions like Ekko or Thresh have a lot of ways you can tweak them and not leave them in shit tier. On the other hand you have champions like Sona, Garen, Darius who are very binary and there isn't much you can change other than numbers.

I'm not saying Garen should and is going to get 300 skillshots, but he definitely needs a raise in skill floor.

doombotMECHAAug 1, 20151 votes

i think garen is gonna stay pretty simple. he's got an identity as a champion that a lot of first-timers play as him, so he needs to be easy to learn

Nataan99Jul 31, 20152 votes

Oh god, my two counterpicks for Riven...

Sir YamazukiJul 31, 20151 votes

They said Garen isn't losing the silence since it's an auto attack and he is immobile. Either way, in my opinion, I'm fine with Garen no longer being a strong "bully" as long as he is equally compensated for the later stages of the game.

NemeBroJul 31, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUs9uVbh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-07-31T10:12:05.090+0000)

They said Garen isn't losing the silence since it's an auto attack and he is immobile. Either way, in my opinion, I'm fine with Garen no longer being a strong "bully" as long as he is equally compensated for the later stages of the game.

Riot seems to want to get rid of lane bullies. They said they wanted to nerf Darius' laning as well.

But without lane bullies, who is there to stop late-game hypercarry champions from reaching their late game?

Penguin EclipseJul 31, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUs9uVbh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-07-31T10:12:05.090+0000)

They said Garen isn't losing the silence since it's an auto attack and he is immobile. Either way, in my opinion, I'm fine with Garen no longer being a strong "bully" as long as he is equally compensated for the later stages of the game.

Not losing his silence doesn't mean his silence will still be any good. Look at Soraka. She kept her silence. But it is complete trash compared to her old silence.

PraetorAmalthusJul 31, 20151 votes

Garen isnt really a tank more a really tanky bruiser. Sion is a tank. what can sion do? slow you, knock you up, do it again etc. garen just lacks the cc to be a tank, so he is a bruiser. he is just fcking tanky thats all. In my eyes garen isnt a tank, i´d pick a seju amumu sion naut malphite over him, hell even jax is more of a tank. vs garen, all that is needed is some peel and he is useless since he can only deal dmg to squishy´s

MetalGearTeemuJul 31, 20157 votes

Garen is to AD what Morde is to AP.

he's a killing machine that can't really hold you still and has limited methods to catch up to you, but god help if he gets his fucking hands on you, because you're going to have a bad time.

I see them giving him almost a Mogul Khan treatment. Obliterate your target with Demacian Justice? Gain team speed buff, or team damage buff, or make the screens of all enemy team members within X range Spin, play Dubstep, and show MLG logos on Garen.

W activation applying his health regen to nearby allies ( including his passive if active ) would also fit his targeted role, which is "the guy who laughs at poke", and provide a limited amount of that to his team.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 31, 20151 votes

The Garen and Darius changes are probably going to be MF level or less. I'm more interested in the Poppy rework, as it's apparently on the same scale as the Sion one.

Silents429Jul 31, 20151 votes

Garen will probably lose his Silence simply because of "muh counterplay".

Meddler already said Garen is keeping his silence.

And the changes for him will be larger then MF's gameplay update but drastically smaller then GP's

He is simply getting tuned up a bit around the new fighter item update that's coming.

As for Darius most of his changes will end up being buffs, but he has to get some form of a powershift because, even now he is a bit overwhelming to deal with even for a lane bully.

Have more faith in Riot.

Mr Sir LebowskiJul 31, 20151 votes

Garen.... oh Garen

How I love to love you

Unfortunately I know you're basically a worse version of Rumble.... far worse

Rumble performs the same duties as you yet is so much more effective. His aoe dmg is far superior, his tankiness scales with his dmg, he has multiple forms of CC without items.

Garen is a bit stronger early but quickly gets outgunned, and in teamfights he just doesn't compare.

Please give Garen something to separate him more from rumble than the slight differences they have right now or buff him to be more competetive, because again he's basically a worse version of Rumble, and I really like Garen 100x more than Rumble.

Garen used to be feared in the bush, now he's not really feared that much at all except by a couple top laners.

Rinky DinkyJul 31, 20151 votes

I like how you claim Garen will lose silence, when they already said he won't xD

Even more so when Garen doesn't even fit into group of champions who lost their silence xD

AgidyneJul 31, 20152 votes

When I created this thread, I didn't know they wouldn't be removing his Silence.

But either way, they also said Miss Fortunes Grievous Wounds were fine a few years ago, and look at them now.

FatesDefilerJul 31, 20151 votes

every rework except sion's was a poorly disguised nerf that did nothing to improve the character or the feeling of playing as that character. sion's is the only single rework that improved the character, making them more fun to play. good job holding it up as the sole example in a 'ruined reworks' thread. really good.

TehNACHOJul 31, 20154 votes

Ashe Tryndamere, where did I put my arrows?

DJ Di0Jul 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

every rework except sion's was a poorly disguised nerf that did nothing to improve the character or the feeling of playing as that character. sion's is the only single rework that improved the character, making them more fun to play. good job holding it up as the sole example in a 'ruined reworks' thread. really good.

Sion Ashe Gangplank Soraka Xerath Nidalee Viktor ???

doombotMECHAAug 1, 20151 votes

eve's second rework (the one that gave her the stealth passive) was what finally got her out of olaf tier. maybe she's still up, but she's actually playable.

BiffoloAug 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

every rework except sion's was a poorly disguised nerf that did nothing to improve the character or the feeling of playing as that character. sion's is the only single rework that improved the character, making them more fun to play. good job holding it up as the sole example in a 'ruined reworks' thread. really good.

Except ashe. And soon to be fiora.

Spizzle9000Aug 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Twin Arrowguns,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUs9uVbh,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-07-31T10:04:16.088+0000)

Please, for all that is sacred, don't put as much counterplay in them as there is in someone like Sion where the enemies can always f*cking sidestep your ult unless they were CC'd before or you caught them in a very small angle in which they cannot escape.

It's almost never up to me to land the ult, it's up to my enemies to dodge it.

Anyway, back to Darius & Garen.

They are lane bullies, they have always been.

They are supposed to make the enemy laner feel like shit unless the enemy laner is a lane bully himself.

As a trade-off, they don't scale to late game aswell as other top laners and despite being somewhat strong in a 1v1 or 1v2 scenario, they are still inferior versions of someone like Jax.

But we all know what's going to happen.

Garen will probably lose his Silence simply because of "muh counterplay".

And Noxian Guillotine will have a "can only be casted on Slowed targets with at least 3 stacks of Hemorrage after 5 seconds of being in combat that will root Darius in place and force Jarvan to record a One night stand with Fiora with Teemo and Evelynn watching it in the background" slapped on it's tooltip.