can you become unkillable with thornmail?

arc95·Jun 25, 2015·1 votes·674 views

can you get to the point where you wont lose a 1v1 because of thornmail...e.g tank vs adc

like lets say the adc doesnt have any armor pen/shred and no life-steal (so a bad build :P)...just flat ad/attack speed etc.

can you build enough armor/health mixed with thormails damage that the thornmail will always kill the adc before they can kill you?

i was thinking if you can get enough armor for 75% ad reduction... and Thornmail returns 30% damage wont you kill the adc if you just sit there(assuming they only auto you)?

15 Comments

SkypualJun 25, 20152 votes

In theory yes, but nobody is dumb enough to not build lifeseal and arpen.

arc95Jun 25, 20151 votes

you haven't played many bronze matches have you?

lets just say there isnt much penetrating going on

StillshadeJun 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

like lets say the adc doesnt have any armor pen/shred and no life-steal (so a bad build :P)...just flat ad/attack speed etc.

if youre in bronze where people dont know what to build it would work but any adc with a brain would build arpen and lifesteal as a part of there core build. so unless you're so far ahead that you can buy it before they get either lifesteal or arpen it could work, but in 90% of cases no.

arc95Jun 25, 20151 votes

i can see it happening in bronze...

ADC: OMG WTH I CANT KILL YOU...you must be hacking

TANK: laughs

Laughing FishJun 25, 20152 votes

In theory yes. But both the ADC and the Tank would have to build specifically for it to happen.

IxozielJun 25, 20152 votes

Depends on the AD carry, how much MR they have, and who the tank is. Malphite for example has a ton of passive survivability from his shield and his armor multiplier on W. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Kog'maw could rely entirely on his damage from W and his other abilities to kill you, thus taking little damage from thornmail while doing a large amount of magic damage. If you look at a straight up physical auto attacker like Jinx, though, she would have major problems with thornmail's reflection if she had no lifesteal. She could definitely kill herself on a tank.

At 30 base mr, if she crits for 800 she will take about 172 damage. Assuming the tank has 400 armor, he's going to take about 200 damage. Now he will have a lot more health than her, so even if she just sits there autoing him, she will die first even if he does absolutely nothing. Last whisper would increase teh damage of that crit to 304, though, but she is still likely to die because he will probably have 2x her hp.

This is assuming neither one uses abilities, in which case it likely becomes heavily skewed towards the tank due to CC / nukes / etc.

DJ Di0Jun 25, 20152 votes

Taric item 3047 item 3025 item 3075 item 3717 item 3083 item 3143 Damage? What's that?

3TWarriorJun 26, 20151 votes

that thing that mages do XD

Baby GhoulJun 25, 20151 votes

If you're building that tanky, then you're likely not going to be able to be a problem for for the carry either. They will just ignore you.

Also don't underestimate people in bronze/silver. Yes you will see 6 boot builds, but people do build armor pen and lifesteal frequently, even in games without unkillable tanks. When I'm in top lane as a melee AD carry, and there is very low killing potential on both sides, I will roam and pick off enemies and get fed that way.

G1RadiobotJun 25, 20151 votes

Yes you can. Just play Taric.

ErockandrollJun 25, 20151 votes

Tank V.S. ADC, is partially a skills matchup. Is the Tank going to be able to engage and lock up before the ADC out kites them?

People keep saying that LifeSteal is the counter to thornmail, but that's not completely true since LifeSteal is post Armor. So it doesn't work real well without Armor pen.

BT has 20% life steal. 100 armor will cut damage in half. reducing the life steal to about 10% of your damage in healing. Thornmail will do 30% of the attackers damage as magic damage, yet the ADC won't have more than 100 MR so Thornmail damage won't be completly stopped by life steal.

Though it's very unlikely that the ADC will just kill themselves on just the Thornmail. And becomes less effective against casters and mix damage ADC's (Kog'maw, Corki, Vayne.)

67chromeJun 25, 20151 votes

can you get to the point where you wont lose a 1v1 because of thornmail...e.g tank vs adc

Yes.

But that point is pretty much in lane as your first major item. In 1 major item builds. And against specific opponents.

On top of the starting ~30ish armor you get a low levels: the 100 armor on Thornmail will increase your lifespan by 80% against physical damage.

Thornmail will then proceed to reflect damage back to your attacker before it's mitigated by any of your armor. After your opponents 30 MR it's only reflecting 23% of their attack power, but with 130 armor you're only eating 43% of their attack power: causing you to reflect ~53% of the damage they deal.

And you survive 80% longer than your opponent if they built a pure-damage.

Which means for them to kill you, they're pretty much going to eat 95% of their maximum health if they just resort to auto-attacks, don't have armor penetration, life steal, or noteworthy magic resistance. You only have to take out 5% of their max HP to kill them, and AFK auto-attacking them you should be able to take out much more than that.

So: in lane vs. a Aatrox Fiora Yasuo Tryndamere Gangplank Vayne Tristana Draven Jinx Rengar Ezreal ?

Thornmail is pure cancer. As a ranged champion you can usually just ignore it and focus on CS though - but you can't really poke, harass, or bring any sort of lane presence.

Thonrmail is also pretty cancer against all those champions in Dominion, to the point I've gotten triple-kills on Thonrmail Fiora vs some AD heavy teams, which is kind of sad considering the lack of synergy it has with her kit.

Late game though?

Thornmail is pretty garbo unless you're someone like Malphite or Taric, did well early/mid, have a ton of gold, and can get away with building nothing but armor.

3-major items in? There aren't any armor items that allow you to maintain the same massive boost in armor as Thornmail, so you're phys defense atrophies compared to the power it provides in-lane: where the damage potential of every auto-attacker grows exponentially. Double defense vs. double attack early is pretty swell. Triple defense vs. Octuple offense late, not so much.

life steal also pretty much obliterates the kill-potential of thornmail and turns it more into a minor annoyance. More importantly late game though: Life steal makes HP not help a whole bunch. It's just more life to steal, delaying the inevitable rather than preventing it.

Compound that with %armor penetration piercing ~1/3rd of your armor in the late-game phase, some miscellaneous MR/survival bonuses that will mitigate thornmail's damage, and the fact late-game is usually the team fight phase where you can easily focus someone besides the thornmail hulk as an auto-attacker and have the aid of tanks and supports when they try to force you to?

Thornmail is pretty much garbage late-game. Or in ARAM in general.

Anyways - main reason to get item 3075 :

You want to turn top-lane into paste. Probably as a mid-game bruiser like , with the intent of gaining a ton of leverage early and ending the game before it hits the 30 minute mark.
You're stuck top-lane as a tank that has to deal with a constant split-push threat from the likes of . Thornmail is still pretty strong in 1v1 situations against such champions.
You're playing Dominion, and a decent portion of the enemy team is all late-game, auto-attacking hyper-carries. Build Thornmail, proceed to capture all the points, and win the game depressingly fast without dying ever.

TLDR: item 3075 is auto-win as a first major item. And pretty much useless in a 3 major item build.

EffectFXJun 25, 20151 votes

Actually aatrox shouldn't have that many issues vs thornmail. His heal from his blood thirst doesn't apply based on how much damage he deals like regular lifesteal. Only on how much AD he has, if his health below 50%, and how often does he hit 3 times in a row. so with a hydra/botrk and a spirit visage built you can ignore thornmail.

BakedLotionJun 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes.

But that point is pretty much in lane as your first major item. In 1 major item builds. And against specific opponents.

On top of the starting ~30ish armor you get a low levels: the 100 armor on Thornmail will increase your lifespan by 80% against physical damage.

Thornmail will then proceed to reflect damage back to your attacker before it's mitigated by any of your armor. After your opponents 30 MR it's only reflecting 23% of their attack power, but with 130 armor you're only eating 43% of their attack power: causing you to reflect ~53% of the damage they deal.

And you survive 80% longer than your opponent if they built a pure-damage.

Which means for them to kill you, they're pretty much going to eat 95% of their maximum health if they just resort to auto-attacks, don't have armor penetration, life steal, or noteworthy magic resistance. You only have to take out 5% of their max HP to kill them, and AFK auto-attacking them you should be able to take out much more than that.

So: in lane vs. a ?

Thornmail is pure cancer. As a ranged champion you can usually just ignore it and focus on CS though - but you can't really poke, harass, or bring any sort of lane presence.

Thonrmail is also pretty cancer against all those champions in Dominion, to the point I've gotten triple-kills on Thonrmail Fiora vs some AD heavy teams, which is kind of sad considering the lack of synergy it has with her kit.

Late game though?

Thornmail is pretty garbo unless you're someone like Malphite or Taric, did well early/mid, have a ton of gold, and can get away with building nothing but armor.

3-major items in? There aren't any armor items that allow you to maintain the same massive boost in armor as Thornmail, so you're phys defense atrophies compared to the power it provides in-lane: where the damage potential of every auto-attacker grows exponentially. Double defense vs. double attack early is pretty swell. Triple defense vs. Octuple offense late, not so much.

life steal also pretty much obliterates the kill-potential of thornmail and turns it more into a minor annoyance. More importantly late game though: Life steal makes HP not help a whole bunch. It's just more life to steal, delaying the inevitable rather than preventing it.

Compound that with %armor penetration piercing ~1/3rd of your armor in the late-game phase, some miscellaneous MR/survival bonuses that will mitigate thornmail's damage, and the fact late-game is usually the team fight phase where you can easily focus someone besides the thornmail hulk as an auto-attacker and have the aid of tanks and supports when they try to force you to?

Thornmail is pretty much garbage late-game. Or in ARAM in general.

Anyways - main reason to get :

You want to turn top-lane into paste. Probably as a mid-game bruiser like , with the intent of gaining a ton of leverage early and ending the game before it hits the 30 minute mark.

You're stuck top-lane as a tank that has to deal with a constant split-push threat from the likes of . Thornmail is still pretty strong in 1v1 situations against such champions.

You're playing Dominion, and a decent portion of the enemy team is all late-game, auto-attacking hyper-carries. Build Thornmail, proceed to capture all the points, and win the game depressingly fast without dying ever.

TLDR: is auto-win as a first major item. And pretty much useless in a 3 major item build.

Actually, MR counters thornmail's damage more than lifesteal. Lifesteal applies AFTER damage reduction, so you'll always heal alot less against tanks. Someone did the math before and MR reduced the damage taken by quite a bit more

BakedLotionJun 25, 20151 votes

I had a full tank malphite suicide when i was rammus before. I was backdooring their nexus, and hitting it. The malphite was using his abilities and autoing me, i pressed w everytime it was up and he eventually suicided when i was still 3/4th of my hp LOL (i had thornmail)