Juggernauts need more damage

hoganftw·Aug 24, 2017·21 votes·1,207 views

I mean if they're gonna be a big hulking mother-trucker, they might as well hit like one. They should be like battering rams. Once they get to their target, they oughtta just pummel the opposition.

46 Comments

MordepoolAug 24, 201715 votes

{quoted}

Once they get to their target,

Found it. There's your problem.

Dasdi96Aug 24, 20177 votes

If anything they need more base durability. The tank update fucked up their tankiness when they shifted to more resistances I think all juggs should get +10 hp/level. For example, darius will now have 110 hp/level.

LankPantsAug 24, 20175 votes

Juggernauts don't really need more damage, they need the game to shift to a point where they can actually function.

They need tanks to be looked at in general, they just have too much CC right now, they also ADC damage to be toned down too. They're the primary victim of all the most cancerous things in the meta conspiring against them, the solution isn't to make Juggernauts just like what's holding them down, it's to fix the cancerous things above them so they can function.

VolphiAug 24, 20173 votes

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LankPantsAug 24, 20174 votes

No they haven't.

Look at older tanks for a sec

Chogath : Only hard CC on Q Amumu : Only Q and R for CC Malphite : Only hard CC on R Old Maokai : Hard CC on W and Q Rammus : Hard CC on E and Q Old Sejuani : Hard CC on Q and R Old Zac : Hard CC on E and R

The only tanks who used to have this much CC were support tanks like Leona , Alistar and Nautilus who traded all their damage for CC. Now it's standard for tanks to have 3 hard CCs.

VolphiAug 24, 20172 votes

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LankPantsAug 24, 20177 votes

The champions who used to have this much CC were support tanks who actually have no damage on their kits at all. Sejuani, Zac, Poppy, Maokai, Galio ect. can't have no damage because they need to be able to at least function alone.

You cannot balance 3 hard CCs with having damage and you can't remove damage from these champs as they need it to lane or jungle.

It's a different kind of tank who used to have this much CC, but it's unarguable that tanks on average have more CC now than ever before.

VolphiAug 24, 20172 votes

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LankPantsAug 24, 20175 votes

Reworks aren't old champions, they're new champs in old champs skins. Sejuani, Zac, Maokai and Galio are all new champs.

Teridax68Aug 24, 20172 votes

Hold on. In the comment above and the one before in this chain, you claim that tanks have "always had this much CC", yet in this comment you specifically bring up reworks, which is a clear indication that those tanks did not always have that much CC. So what is the truth?

To expand on LankPants' point, there was once a time where Nautilus was considered potentially game-breaking because he had 4 separate instances of CC. Until then, the upper bar for tank CC was 3 different effects, and even then, one of them was usually soft or short-duration CC. By comparison, Nautilus being able to apply continuous CC to the same target for 4+ seconds was unheard of.

Nowadays, though, we are at a stage where not only is it much more common for tanks to apply that much crowd control, but they can also do it to multiple targets. Galio, for example, can apply 4 seconds of continuous hard CC to several enemies at once, and he only has 3 CC effects. Gnar can apply 5+ seconds of CC, while also laying down tons of damage. Ornn can also apply 5+ seconds of CC, not counting its amplification. Many of these crowd control effects are displacements, which cannot be reduced by Tenacity either. Tanks have a lot more crowd control nowadays, more so than Nautilus, which is also one of the reasons why the latter no longer feels unique in the game anymore.

VolphiAug 27, 20171 votes

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Teridax68Aug 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

There is +3 CC in champions he listed because I forgot about them. But overall this doesn't make much difference.

Except he also listed exactly how much CC each of those champions had, which directly contradicts your point that tanks always had that much CC.

{quoted}

We are talking about hard CC.

No, we are talking about CC in general, and even then, Naut having 3 separate, strong instances of hard CC was also unique on its own.

{quoted}

And what was game breaking then isn't right now. If it was, Nauti would be ban or pick. And you are just proving my point - according Nauti was overwhelming with his CC so in the past so having this much CC has always been the case.

This makes no sense at all. The point I am making is that Nautilus once represented the upper bound for CC, but now that is considered insufficient, because newer tank designs have emerged with even more crowd control. This change shows that having this much CC has not always been the case, and whereas Nautilus was once pick-or-ban for his CC, he is now considered underwhelming.

{quoted}

Nowadays there is more champions so obviously there will be more tanks with hard CC.

But that's not at all what I'm pointing out, though. You can have as many new tanks as you want, but they don't need to out-CC each other if you have a solid upper bound. Unfortunately, the Nautilus bar got breached in recent times, and the new normal for a tank is to have lots of AoE knockups. This is CC creep, and more specifically knockup creep, in action.

{quoted}

W which slows him down and R which area of effect is shown before landing.

Literally none of this is relevant to the point being made, though. At the end of the day, Galio can apply a ton of hard CC, to a degree that outperforms Nautilus, who himself is balanced around being very slow and having very little damage.

{quoted}

Which require good positioning and mispositioning from enemies which requires knowledge of when to go in. Because Gnar needs to go totally all in in order to effectively apply his CC - unlike listed above tanks with almost point and click CC.

Again, not only is none of this relevant to the amount of CC in the game, but it's also easy to point out drawbacks on other tanks. Sure, it's possible for Gnar to not land his full CC... but that can be said for literally any other champion as well. Listing weaknesses and tradeoffs goes both ways.

{quoted}

Because Ornn is stupid on his own and we are talking about tanks in general.

Okay, but he is still a tank, and I'm bringing him up as an example of how modern tank designs are loaded with CC. You can't just special-case out champions because they contradict your statement.

{quoted}

But that's not only problems with tanks, but with displacement in general.

Sure, but tanks are overwhelming beneficiaries of displacement, as they have been receiving the most of it on their kits, again with Ornn being a prime example.

{quoted}

Tanks have always had a lot CC. Cherry picking won't help you in proving your point.

Except it has been demonstrated at length that it is you who are cherry-picking here. You've deliberately ignored kit updates and release dates, and claimed special pleading for a number of tanks and points that were brought to your attention. It is demonstrably true that tanks, despite being a CC-heavy class, did not have as much CC overall as they do now.

VolphiAug 28, 20171 votes

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Teridax68Aug 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

And I already said I forgot about them ergo admitted to mistake, so what is your point here?

My point is that you have contradicted yourself, and despite repeated insistence, still refuse to admit your mistakes. Even in your reply, you repeatedly accuse me of cherry-picking when I have listed more evidence than you ever have, and so after you have repeatedly tried to call each of my examples a special case.

{quoted}

And also, this doesn't change anything. Tanks are meant to have a lot of CC.

Tanks are meant to have a lot of CC, but there is such a thing as too much CC, which is the point I and everyone else who has replied to you is trying to make. The CC creep that has occurred in the game is a demonstrable fact, regardless of your own opinion on the matter.

{quoted}

Then go back to previous comments and see what CC has LankPants listed.

Or I could just go back to their actual first post about tanks having too much CC in general, which you replied to. What you just did is in itself an example of cherry-picking.

{quoted}

Also just because Nauti was unique doesn't mean it's wrong for him to not be unique anymore.

This is completely wrong. If a champion is meant to be unique at something, and they no longer become unique because other champions do what they do, something is very wrong. Naut himself was released with his claim to fame being that he had the most CC in the game, and he paid a heavy price for it. He was, as I've been trying to point out, the upper bar for CC on a single champion kit in the game. The fact that several champions objectively have more CC than he does now, not the same amount, shows that that bar has been breached, and that Nautilus has lost that unique quality as a result. Roster size has nothing to do with this either.

{quoted}

Actually Nauti still has the highest amount of all soft and hard CC in game probably along with Ornn.

Let's count:

Nautilus has one 1.5-second single-target root, one single-target displacement, one 1.5-second AoE slow, and one 2-second AoE knockup/stun on his ult. That's three instances of hard CC, one of soft CC, for a total of a little over 5 seconds of crowd control against one target.
Ornn has a 2-second AoE slow, a single-target displacement, a 1-second AoE knockup, and a 2-second AoE knockup/slow on ult. That's three instances of hard CC, one of soft CC, for a total of over 5 seconds of crowd control against one target. This is not counting his Brittle debuff, which can allow him either an extra on-hit knockback with his ult or enhance the CC of an ally.
Maokai has a 0.25-second AoE knockup/slow, a 1.4-second single-target root, a 2-second AoE slow, and a 2.4-second AoE root on ult. That's three instances of hard CC, one of soft CC, for a total of 6.05 seconds of crowd control against one target.
Mega Gnar has a 2-second AoE slow, a 1.25-second AoE stun, a 0.5-second AoE stun, and a 1.75-second AoE displacement/stun on his ult. That's 2 instances of hard CC, 2 of soft CC, for 5.5 seconds of crowd control against multiple targets, on top of very large damage and an alternate form.

So there are actually quite a few champions who have more CC than Nautilus nowadays, not just Ornn.

{quoted}

So since when Nauti's CC is insufficient right now? You are making up things.

It is insufficient for a champion whose core strength is having the most CC in the game, in an environment where many more champions have comparable or more CC with additional advantages. You can take a look at his dismal performance and see for yourself whether I'm "making up things", or ask any of the Nautilus players who have voiced the same opinions as me on here.

{quoted}

Nauti already has AoE knockup with his ulti. Also you conveniently are talking about AoE knockups now instead of AoE CC which at the end of the day doesn't make that much difference to be taken separately. This is nothing but manipulating the course of discussion to make your statement seen better.

Except the AoE knockups I am talking about are largely found on basic abilities, and it is you who are trying to manipulate the discussion by fabricating the impression that I discounted AoE CC, when it is in fact you who have been cherry-picking the CC you wanted to take into account, such as your insistence on talking only about hard CC.

{quoted}

And new tanks don't out-CC each other, tanks in LoL are just meant to have a lot of hard CC or really strong ones.

They do, though. Galio's rework added 2 AoE knockups to his kit when he was previously exceptionally low on crowd control, Sejuani's rework gave her a stun on her basic ability, Zac's rework gave him an extra displacement, Maokai's rework gave him an AoE root on his ult and Rammus's rework gave him an AoE slow on ult. Ornn's release gives him some of the most CC in the game. At this point, arguing that none of this constitutes CC creep is simply wilful ignorance.

{quoted}

No, sure. Just completely ignore that Nauti has 2 point and click CCs which is FAR easier to apply than Galio's CCs.

Galio's PBAoE taunt is not difficult to land either, and he has many advantages that Nautilus does not, such as damage, mobility, etc. Again, picking apart the kit of just one champion in the hopes of claiming that there's no CC creep is cherry picking, as you're ignoring the mountains of evidence pointing to the contrary.

{quoted}

Also lets just pretend that perfect situation will occur every time you are in a combat and Galio will his everyone with every CC he has. Because, you know, it conveniently fits so well with your statement.

The same can be said for Nautilus, who could whiff his Q and thereby also not be in range to land his W or root, and if you want to start arguing that he'd be using his ult first, this is already presuming a scenario where things work out perfectly for your own calculations. Because that would conveniently fit whichever point you are trying to prove.

{quoted}

No, sure, conditional and relatively hard to apply CC is not relevant.

It's not when discussing the raw amount of CC each champion can output, and if you want to factor in conditionals, you then need to start factoring in other advantages those champions have that affect how they work, i.e. mobility, damage, reliability on other effects, etc. Focusing on just one potential counter-argument, without acknowledging the host of other equally relevant characteristics that defeat the point you're making is, again, cherry-picking. This applies for gameplay knowledge, alternative forms of power, and so on, which you have selectively brought up or omitted at the pleasure of your argument.

{quoted}

But you can use cherry picking to support your statement, right?

Where is this cherry-picking you accuse me of doing? Please point it out, as I've taken great pains to bring up numbers, statistics, and a wealth of examples to support my point.

{quoted}

I haven't ignored kit updates

You very deliberately have, as pointed out to you by not just me.

{quoted}

Yeah just cherry pick tanks and call it a day. Good job, keep your eristic going even harder.

I don't have to, I counted the CC of every champion in the game, by hand, the fruits of which I invite you to see. I know exactly how much CC is in the game, for any given champion and class. All of that data, all of those facts show you are completely, utterly wrong on every single point you have tried to make thus far in this entire line of conversation. You picked exactly the wrong person to argue with on this subject.

SpoofghoulAug 24, 20172 votes

Sion Has tons of hard cc

technically only 2 hard cc but at full duration (charged Q/R) it lasts pretty long He also has a slow + shred

I think the issue is not the amount of cc but rather how much counter play it has

i do not really think tanks are the issue here

but rather how much access to mobility & soft cc carry classes have just look at the zeal items or stuff like ludens echo It's difficult enough for immobile melee to get to their target through all the stuff from champion kits alone that gets thrown at you But now your targets can walk faster then you too and you get slowed all the time

LankPantsAug 24, 20171 votes

technically only 2 hard cc but at full duration (charged Q/R) it lasts pretty long He also has a slow + shred

Sion has 2 hard CCs and a soft CC, he's just getting towards the border of where there's too much CC, but he's not really there. If Sion had an extra stun he'd most likely be just as cancer as champs like Sejuani and Zac.

There's a large difference between a champ with one basekit hard CC and a champ with two base kit hard CCs. A champ with 2 hard CCs on their base kit had better make a lot of tradeoffs because they have a lot of power in CC. If you're Leona and deal shitall damage you're fine, if you're Sej and you need damage to function it's not OK to have that much CC.

Sion is fine because his CC is super limited compared to Zac/Sej/Maokai/Galio and he makes appropriate tradeoffs. He deals more damage than someone like Naut, but he has a lot less CC. That is how this should work.

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 24, 20171 votes

i have no issue to tank having much cc... But jesus make them skillshot (hi stupid point and clic root mao, same for nauti ult...). And most of all, adress their base stat, they tank since the first minute and nuke u too.

Tanks don't need to deal so much damage to work.

LankPantsAug 24, 20173 votes

Tanks don't need to deal so much damage to work.

Yes they do. Tanks at the moment deal about the bare minimum damage they need to either clear waves top or clear the jungle.

The problem is that tanks who deal some damage like Sej and Zac and who need some damage to function should make a tradeoff for that damage. Sej and Zac should not have as much CC as Nautilus or Leona.

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 24, 20171 votes

Yes they do. Tanks at the moment deal about the bare minimum damage they need to either clear waves top or clear the jungle.

thats what i say... they don't need it. For jungle u just need a "damage change" (don't know how to ward it, but i mean like kayn or zac).

The problem is that tanks who deal some damage like Sej and Zac and who need some damage to function should make a tradeoff for that damage. Sej and Zac should not have as much CC as Nautilus or Leona.

They don't need these damage if u exclude their jungle clear. And they don't need to have a good clear waves either.

RalanrAug 24, 20173 votes

Tanks need an appropriate level of damage to be threats in top lane so they can encourage some interactivity over just farming under turret.

If they had no chance to actually win lane or beat their opponent in a fight, then why pick them top?

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 24, 20172 votes

lel, they don't need. When u lane against a tank the lane already become a farm fest.

If they had no chance to actually win lane or beat their opponent in a fight, then why pick them top?

For team fight. And tank can easly set up gank. All pick don't need to win their lane.

look at MonkeyKing when u are against Renekton Malphite Gragas (and can go on, cause wu lose most of his match up). All top laner don't need to win their lane.

RalanrAug 24, 20173 votes

Riot doesn't want it to be a farm fest. That's why top lane tanks have damage.

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 24, 20171 votes

maybe... but it shouldn't.

by the a tank vs tank lane is a farm fest

RalanrAug 24, 20173 votes

And farm fests are boring.

Plus it's not always tank vs tank.

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 24, 20171 votes

yeah farm fests are boring, laning against tank too.

RalanrAug 24, 20172 votes

That's why they have tanks damage so they are able to fight and make the lane interactive.

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 24, 20171 votes

There no interactivity with tanks

RalanrAug 24, 20172 votes

Riot's been trying. They're more interactive than they used to be.

Say what you want about Poppy, but compared to Malphite she's more interactive in lane.

Wet DrymanAug 24, 20171 votes

I find Tanks more interactive than most of the Diver roster (with the biggest offender being Wukong with Xin) to be honest.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 24, 20171 votes

So that you have a tank and CC in the team when you have a carry jungler and enchanter supp for example? Ever heard of team comp? There is no reason why they should be able to outdamage idk DAMAGE TOPLANERS.

RalanrAug 24, 20171 votes

What do you mean by outdamage?

GayFluffyUnicornAug 24, 20171 votes

No they do not LOL. Why should tanks be able to clear waves with their abilities in the first place? Are bruisers actually allowed to exist in this game or not? When tanks without items deal the same damage until 25+ mins, have more cc, more durability and more sustain. What exactly is the tradeoff when they ALSO should have waveclear??? If jungle camps are a problem here: deals 50 bonus damage to monsters. done.

RexxieeAug 24, 20175 votes

Yeah, no.

They are already oppressive to other melees, lets not make them auto win vs melee.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 24, 20173 votes

no, other melees are oppressive to juggernauts right now

sorry sir

Teridax68Aug 24, 20175 votes

I feel the issue isn't so much that juggernauts deal too little damage, but that the damage output across DPS classes is kind of out of whack. Equalizing them so that picking any DPS class gives you about the same amount of damage, while still providing unique and valuable contributions on the side, would help juggernauts a lot, as currently their two main strengths are AoE persistent damage and durability, and it's often easier to get the same amount of teamfighting power from other classes that do more. Ideally, players should all be choosing either fighters or marksmen for DPS, where the choice would be between durability and range, and then for fighters you could specialize into AoE (juggernauts), burst mobility (divers), or persistent mobility (skirmishers/light fighters/melee carries). For that to happen, though, the game would likely have to go through a serious amount of rebalancing, as currently the tradeoffs are not equivalent.

DragonSheaAug 24, 20174 votes

Juggs need more baseline Durability and baseline tenacity. With all the CC around they don't feel like slow moving beasts that are slow but pray you kill them because they are gonna fuck them up.

ZT XperimentorAug 24, 20172 votes

Agreed, along with reverting mercury treads and boots of swiftness. Slows are disgustingly prevalent when mobility creep was already ruining this class.