About Veigar (On his changes)

Crett·Feb 6, 2015·4 votes·679 views

I toyed with an idea for changing Veigar a while ago that focused on giving him insane zone control and the ability to trap you in his cage so he can try to land slow moving, imposing but easily avoidable skill shots on you, so I like the way his tentative changes seem to be heading.

But if Veigar's Q is a skillshot, then I think it needs to either pierce through minions (Which would probably be a massive buff for his wave clear), or it needs to be changed so that Veigar doesn't need to use Q to get AP from minions. His AP farming will be a lot harder if he needs to worry about the position of every minion.

9 Comments

Registeel1234Feb 6, 20151 votes

I think you're right about that. It wouldn't be possible to farm Q if it's a skillshot...

But I think the main problem is his stun. It's a nice ability, but has little counterplay. What if we gave it a cast time (ala Chogath), with a shorter CD?

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 6, 20152 votes

THIS. This is exactly what I've wanted on that little troll since I started playing. The ability to stun multiple people on an instant cast ability is INSANE.

Then you couple that with some of the biggest burst in the game? I'm not sure how he has gone untouched all this time. In my experience, you must 2v1 a good Veigar to win. Pretty much every time.

And this is what keeps him from being popular too. He pays for that ability in order to stay balanced. If you DO team up on him, he becomes worthless almost instantly.

Registeel1234Feb 6, 20151 votes

I think we should try to summon Meddler here xD

Anyway, giving his this short cast time would allow veigar to receive some buffs for DFG removal. However, I don'T think increasing his AP Ratios would be the thing to do. He alrealy have very good AP Ratios (60% Q, 100% W, 120% +80%EnemyAP R).

I would probably be a good idea to revisit his passive, in order to buff it. I heard (but I'm not sure) that it got a small nerf with the Mana/HP Regen changes (Passive doesn't count Mana Regen from items). we could give him something special for having a lot of Bonus AP, or give him more utility to some of his spells.

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 6, 20151 votes

Yeah, he definitely doesn't need more burst, and higher AP ratios would mean exactly that. To me, the Ahri changes prove that straight damage isn't always the best way to buff a champion, regardless of how much the community might complain about it :P

In any case, he's a very interesting champion, and if he weren't so darn annoying to play against, I think he'd be a great addition to the current champion roster. I'm not sure I care what they do as long as they add counterplay to that darn cage.

CrettFeb 6, 20152 votes

This thread is based on these quotes from Meddler.

When asked about Veigar specifically, Meddler elaborated: "Odds are very high Veigar won't just be straight buffed. His kit's got some serious counterplay issues (undodgeable instant stun when used right, two point and click nukes) that we need to address. Bundled with counterplay improvements though should be some better tools for Veigar himself (e.g. less binary tools, so he's got better options in tough lanes, lower mana costs, lower CDs, bit more range on some stuff etc - note these aren't set in stone changes though, just possibilities). With you on the megalomania feel, and we've got no desire to change that." He continued: "As above Veigar's got some counterplay problems. We want to make him healthier to play against, so it's ok if he's strong, rather than buffing him only to feel we immediately have to nerf him because of how he can be to play against." Meddler continued, noting a few ideas for these "counterplay problems": "Q as skillshot's one of the things we're trying, not sure if it's currently on the kit in testing or not. Giving E a brief delay to play up the 'where do I stand inside the cage?' aspect, and then potentially increasing its range or lowering its CD's also being investigated."

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 6, 20151 votes

Sounds intelligent. I have faith in Riot, as always.

junglerboy16Feb 7, 20151 votes

You mean 3v1. If one of you is a mage, he can instagib you and a whole other champion by the time the stun wears off by dropping R on you and Q+W on the other guy.

Teridax68Feb 7, 20151 votes

Thoughts on Veigar 's current kit:

The idea of trapping people in a cage and putting his victims through an arena of death is fantastic, but needs to be implemented in a very different manner to that of his current kit: right now, the main purpose of his Event Horizon is to nullify the counterplay to his Dark Matter, which is not a healthy point of design, especially since his E is already nearly impossible to dodge when against a skilled Veigar. I'd say he could have W on a stock system (e.g. he'd get multiple charges to cast in quick succession, like 's Void Rift or 's turrets), provided his E had more counterplay and didn't limit the counterplay to the rest of his kit as drastically (for example, his cage could just wall in units instead of stunning them).
Veigar's AP growth suffers from the same problem as 's Q stacking, where it basically means he has no choice but to hard farm during the laning phase if he wants to become a threat as soon as possible, which doesn't make laning against him really rich with interactivity. By contrast, champions like the new and , who both have infinitely scaling passives, get to have a much more dynamic laning phase because their stacks don't distort their gameplay. Even , whose stacking passive has been heavily criticized, gets rewarded for poisoning her opponent, and not just for farming. Infinitely scaling AP is definitely a cool feature on Veigar, and one he should keep, but I think it's something that should happen in a manner that, at worst, just occurs naturally (a la Sion or Cassiopeia), and at best rewards him for interactive play with his laning opponent (a la Thresh or Cass). Making his Q and even his R less reliable shouldn't interfere with this in any way.

CrettFeb 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thoughts on 's current kit:

The idea of trapping people in a cage and putting his victims through an arena of death is fantastic, but needs to be implemented in a very different manner to that of his current kit: right now, the main purpose of his Event Horizon is to nullify the counterplay to his Dark Matter, which is not a healthy point of design, especially since his E is already nearly impossible to dodge when against a skilled Veigar. I'd say he could have W on a stock system (e.g. he'd get multiple charges to cast in quick succession, like 's Void Rift or 's turrets), provided his E had more counterplay and didn't limit the counterplay to the rest of his kit as drastically (for example, his cage could just wall in units instead of stunning them).

Veigar's AP growth suffers from the same problem as 's Q stacking, where it basically means he has no choice but to hard farm during the laning phase if he wants to become a threat as soon as possible, which doesn't make laning against him really rich with interactivity. By contrast, champions like the new and , who both have infinitely scaling passives, get to have a much more dynamic laning phase because their stacks don't distort their gameplay. Even , whose stacking passive has been heavily criticized, gets rewarded for poisoning her opponent, and not just for farming. Infinitely scaling AP is definitely a cool feature on Veigar, and one he should keep, but I think it's something that should happen in a manner that, at worst, just occurs naturally (a la Sion or Cassiopeia), and at best rewards him for interactive play with his laning opponent (a la Thresh or Cass). Making his Q and even his R less reliable shouldn't interfere with this in any way.

Ideas I tossed around that were very similar to this: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/69Uf7cBE-veigar-rework

EDIT: I really like the idea of charges on his dark matter.