Honestly, at this point I am just willing to accept that ADC will always be broken...

Raoul··28 votes·7,481 views

Going back to being a support main, so I can at least be in the only lane that matters, with jungle second, so i can camp the only lane that matters.

After years where adcs were either op or got buffed hard the second they had counterplay, I just give up.

The ADCs in this game have DotA level power, while no other class has an equal power to counter them.

But this seems to be the game RIOT wants. so... well, I give up.

All Hail for our ADC Overlords...

https://i.imgur.com/aQaoVfE.jpg

56 Comments

Sun Wu Ryuumoku6 votes

Going back to being a support main

Support is the most broken/strongAF role atm.

CrestfallenNight6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEFmoaEF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-05-13T13:01:36.982+0000)

Support is the most broken/strongAF role atm.

lmfao, fam.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

You have right to :

  • not understanding the game
  • not being good at your role

But... this dosn't make adc stronger than supp. Even the best player in the world (Dopa) say it )

supports I feel are #1 in terms of carry potential. 1:Support, 2:Mid, 3:ADC, 4:Jungle, 5:Top

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/89x8s1/apdodopa_youtube_qa_translation/

SwiftKitten882 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEFmoaEF,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-05-13T16:50:04.720+0000)

You have right to :

  • not understanding the game
  • not being good at your role

But... this dosn't make adc stronger than supp. Even the best player in the world (Dopa) say it )

your right.. that's not what make, stronger than supports... common fucking sense does...

why do u think support have such a big impact on the game in the first place

why do you think junglers are forced to camp bot.

i can guarantee you its not to "make sure the support will carry them"

its because ADC are so fucking broken, that regardless of how any other lanes does w/e team has a stronger more fed adc wins.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

why do u think support have such a big impact on the game in the first place

Honestly too many things, cant list all but :

  • "big income" without Csing
  • cheap items cost (cheap but strong)
  • this role's very mobile (its more risky to let ur adc alone the lower you are tho)
  • decide if bot wins (more or less along jng) = mean if adc will scale or not.

why do you think junglers are forced to camp bot.

  • tower bot is squishier
  • bot scale as two not like one and a demi guys like used (they're supposed to SHARE ressource but riot didn't balanced them as)
  • bot lane decide the game (adc include).

ADC is strong af, and yes its broken. But support is stronger. But this is more subtile (mean its harder to notice at lower elo).

its because ADC are so fucking broken, that regardless of how any other lanes does w/e team has a stronger more fed adc wins.

if its only adc fed, and other are bad (supp include) it will be nothing other than a lost.

Smooth561 votes
  • tower bot is squishier
  • bot scale as two not like one and a demi guys like used (they're supposed to SHARE ressource but riot didn't balanced them as)
  • bot lane decide the game (adc include).

That's not true, they said they wanted for botlane to scale like two, support is a full role as others. It is normal that botlane scales like two, there are 4 people playing botlane, and a botlane advantage is the same as mid+top advantage or mid+jun whatever.

Trust me it's frustrating when you play botlane and mid+top are loosing, the same as when you play mid and adc+supp is loosing.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

{quoted}

That's not true, they said they wanted for botlane to scale like two, support is a full role as others. It is normal that botlane scales like two, there are 4 people playing botlane, and a botlane advantage is the same as mid+top advantage or mid+jun whatever.

no, its not same. When your bot win, your game is close of won, when its your top, mid or jng its not. And to begin they're no fairness to have same scaling as solo laner (cs alone, caring of self safety without a guardian angel, sharing xp...)

Trust me it's frustrating when you play botlane and mid+top are loosing, the same as when you play mid and adc+supp is loosing.

its not same... ofc at some extend.

Smooth561 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEFmoaEF,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-13T20:21:49.012+0000)

no, its not same. When your bot win, your game is close of won, when its your top, mid or jng its not. And to begin they're no fairness to have same scaling as solo laner (cs alone, caring of self safety without a guardian angel, sharing xp...)

its not same... ofc at some extend.

Yeah you didn't read correctly. I said it is the same as if your mid and your top loses, not mid or top or jun alone. People often say "when bot win it is close to won", but in reality it is the same if your mid and your top wins, which represents the same amount of players so it's logical.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

But your logic isn't good (IMO). Mid and Top have 2 lanes, means 2 ressource source. Bot share one lane. They shouldn't be impactful like 2 lanes.

CrestfallenNight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEFmoaEF,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-14T19:49:05.204+0000)

But your logic isn't good (IMO). Mid and Top have 2 lanes, means 2 ressource source. Bot share one lane. They shouldn't be impactful like 2 lanes.

They're one lane with FOUR people. Lol.

Pika Fox1 votes

Supports have the highest carry potential in higher ELOs. Lower ELO? Forget about carrying unless youre playing an AP mid.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

support is a role not a class (at least in the ranking things). So yeah in lower its better to pick an AP. But still even with a Thresh or an Alistar you can carry.

Pika Fox1 votes

Very difficult, because youre still relying on your team to do more work than you would need them to do if you were, say, brand or velk.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Support was buffed 6 times in a row. How aren't they?

CrestfallenNight1 votes

{quoted}

Support was buffed 6 times in a row. How aren't they?

Elaborate. Saying that is like saying: The army has gotten stronger. Which army? Which supports? What kind of buffs? Lol.

AirKingNeo1 votes

gold like 6 times

MohawkBird1 votes

[deleted]

CrestfallenNight1 votes

{quoted}

On top of ridiculous gold income buffs, Riot also reworked some items and introduced new ones, which gave even more ways for supports to shield and heal.

So we have more gold and we have more items (and therefore more shields/heals), which then leads to supports getting those items much earlier than they used to.

So now we have supports earning more, healing more, shielding more, and doing all of that much earlier in the game than before. Damn right they've been buffed a fuck ton.

Yeah, more shields you say? By items? Im listening. I'll just remind you that Face of the Mountain item 3309 got removed :DDDD Hmm... gold buffs eh? Without the debt rune you literally won't build as fast as someone else. They get stuff earlier you say? Funny, because I have seen countless topics about people ranting on the acquistion of wards, which IS quite hard if you even get out of lane ONCE. ME INCLUDED have gotten wards AFTER 20 MINUTES. 20 MINUTES.

MohawkBird1 votes

[deleted]

CrestfallenNight1 votes

{quoted}

Your argument proves exactly nothing. One item got removed. Riot also added item 3107 item 3109 and changed other support items like item 3190 item 3504 item 3222 item 3174. The only item on this list that doesn't provide something to do with shields and heals is Knight's Vow, and even then, 12% DR is nothing to laugh at. Censor and Crucible both increase heal and shield power, which stacks with Aery as well. To say that shields and heals are at an all time high barely does it any justice.

Says you? Am I just supposed to believe your word here with nothing else to support you? Gold income was buffed many times for support, and that is literally an objective fact. It's also a fact that support items are the cheapest in the game, and since the gold income buffs, have either had gold decreases or stayed at the same price (which also happens to be really low). Cut the bullshit about the debt rune, because supports are getting items faster than they ever have before in this meta. This isn't even considered the Triumph rune, either.

Also, you cannot compare the acquisition of supports getting their items versus a carry getting them. It's obvious the carry roles farming and getting will have more gold. The fact of the matter is that supports have been closer than they ever have before to keeping up with items with other roles. Sometimes they are even in items with their carries too.

I didn't know people board rants were considered pieces to use in an argument? Exactly what are you trying to prove by saying "people on the boards rant about it." People on the boards rant about tons of stuff, but it doesn't make it any more true. Also sounds like typical boards exaggeration. After 20 minutes is just straight bullshit. You have to be building other items first (or just are feeding an ungoldly amount) , in which case it's perfectly fair if you choose to do that, but don't complain about getting wards late when you are the one purposely delaying it.

Can you do something else besides trying to tell me numerous times that im invalidated to say anything because of x or z? Lol "which gave even more ways for supports to shield and heal" This is FALSE. No new items were included to add "new ways", this is bullshit and you know it. Locket got nerfed ... No one bitches about it anymore. If by anything I say you're just telling me I lack argument then I must just say you lack game knowledge, because it seems we're not playing the same game. You are literally telling me, (AGAIN) you won't believe anything I say because Im simply writting, but... aren't you doing it as well? LMFAO. Nope, try finding for yourself people complaining about those things. So following your mindset 90% of the things in boards are bullshit, so, I guess that people would take their time to write about something they wish changed without a possibility of it ever happening? Just because? Just because it's cool to be on the boards?

MohawkBird1 votes

[deleted]

CrestfallenNight1 votes

{quoted}

If you would come up with an argument that isn't purely anecdotal then I would not have to discredit what you say.

Except I provided multiple items that were either changed or added that allow new ways to shield/heal. All I have to do is mention one of those, say item 3107, and your point is proven wrong. Are you going to deny that Redemption was added or something?

No one bitches about Locket specifically anymore, but people are certainly bitching about the strength of shields and heals in general, which applies to Locket as well.

What exactly do I lack about game knowledge? I'm saying your argument is lacking because you do nothing to try and integrate any sort of logical premise or reasoning within it. The only point that wasn't anecdotal or pulled out of your ass was the fact that Face of the Mountain got removed, which was a tank support item anyways, a class that is not notorious for being overloaded with shields and heals. Enchanters are the real problem.

Yes, we are both simply writing, but the difference lies in the substance. I am attempting to use multiple facts about items, changes, runes, buffs, etc. to try and prove a point. You are simply stating things like "I have seen countless topics on the boards..." which does not prove anything. The boards is far from an ideal place to attempt to pull evidence from.

Not saying all stuff on the boards are bullshit, since I certainly find some substance and actual argumentation/talk about game balance, but the vast majority of it is just people circlejerking and constantly exaggerating points that prove absolutely nothing. There is a difference between people writing "My teammates have been feeding for the past 100 games" and actually proving it. The majority of the boards is simply people making broad/exaggerated claims without anything to back it up. Using what people say on the boards does not qualify as evidence.

If you want to use what they say, back it up using your own reasoning. If people on the boards are saying they get wards after 20 minutes, talk about reasons why. That's all I am saying. In my argument I have given plenty of reasons for the big question of WHY. All you said was "people on boards rant about this" with no further detail or context. That's not an argument, that's a statement. You turn it into an argument by providing analysis on why you believe it to be true.

Nice bait.

MohawkBird1 votes

[deleted]

CrestfallenNight1 votes

{quoted}

I mean he is not really far from being wrong. It may not be the most "broken/strongAF role" but it sure as hell contributed a lot to the power of the bot lane within these past months. All the changes, new additions, and buffs the support role received put them in a spot where it is perfectly conceivable to think of them as the strongest role. It's just hard to consider given that supports often play in the background. What people focus on is an ADC popping off and doing a fuck-ton of damage, not necessarily the 3 health bars worth of shields the support gave them.

I'd honestly say that supports being able to keep their ADC alive so easily may be what led to this bot lane meta to begin with.

You can disagree if you want, but it is by no means worthy of a simple response like "lmfao, fam." Now if he said that about top lane, then it'd be worthy of that response.

ADCs so strong so good. "Watch me carry guys!" Gets one shot from a Rengar whose reaction you LITERALLY CANNOT JUST STOP "Yeah, Rengar is balanced and so are assasins. This is fine."

thefourtysn4 votes

Seems like people don't seem to get the point of adcs. Adc has the most potential for Dot (Consistent dmg) while Mages/Assassins can quickly burst down a enemy. This goes into point that if you can kill the adc asap you'll most likely win the teamfight, or burst down the hp of the tanks. Top laners are mostly tanks, but some bruisers are mostly there to soak up the dmg. They do equal amount of dmg between Adcs and Mid laners. Top laners seem to do %Health dmg if u think about it, and supports are there to help the team (mostly adc). So in a nutshell yes Adc is strong, but without the backbone structure of (a team) adc won't be a thing. There's a factor to every Adc champ, like Lucian with mobility, Double Aa on passive, and low attack range. Also Kog with no mobility, Kill potential on his passive, shreds, and burst. It all goes to builds on adcs.

Raoul17 votes

I am well aware of the role that ADCs are supposed to play.

BUt I am also not blind to the fact that they reach powerspikes early on that are just insane compared to the power any other class can obtain.

Like I wrote: We have DotA Level Carries, without DotA level counters.

FunkyMonkey36961 votes

I would also like to add that they had ridiculous sustain. You can poke them to 1/4 hp if they misposition and they can heal back to full hp in one minion wave. Plus the adc items giving them shield, dmg reduction and move speed on almost every crit item makes it busted.

With the mana Nerf for mages aka pokers/bursters in late game, hopefully they tune down adc sustain.

You can get to a certain point late game where adds can literally stand still, no kiting and burst you down while healing more dmg then you can put out. Kog, runaans ashe, cait, jinxie all can do that.

I really like your points, their advantage is having range, they should in addition have most dmg. They can apply dmg more consistently because of their range.

But rito will never Nerf their poster childs.

Critmaster Garen23 votes

{quoted}

Adc has the most potential for Dot

they shouldnt. the advantage of playing a ranged carry is exactly that. being ranged, which means more consistent damage through a higher threat range, which gives them also more potential to take down objectives. in return theyre a lot squishier than melee carries.

there is absolutely no reason, marksmen have a higher potential sustained damage than everybody else. their benefit is already in how reliably they can apply their auto attacks.

juggernauts and skirmishers should be equal or even stronger when it comes to damage potential. their downside is, that they have to make it into a position from where they can carry first, while its difficult for them to stay in that position, and theyre also ineffective when they cant get there.

the benefit of range is, that it allows marksmen to practically always have some effect.

i also hate the notion that its ok for marksmen to burst the fuck out of tanks and fighters as if they were made out of toilet paper. sustained damage is supposed to be a better tool to take down beefy targets, than burst damage. but that doesnt mean theyre automatically supposed to shred them like they were squishies.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

And it goes to show how disproportionately critical hits benefit from armor shred/penetration, yet riot wonders why ninja tabi have been the go-to shoe.

Smooth562 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEFmoaEF,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-05-13T08:08:56.829+0000)

they shouldnt. the advantage of playing a ranged carry is exactly that. being ranged, which means more consistent damage through a higher threat range, which gives them also more potential to take down objectives. in return theyre a lot squishier than melee carries.

there is absolutely no reason, marksmen have a higher potential sustained damage than everybody else. their benefit is already in how reliably they can apply their auto attacks.

juggernauts and skirmishers should be equal or even stronger when it comes to damage potential. their downside is, that they have to make it into a position from where they can carry first, while its difficult for them to stay in that position, and theyre also ineffective when they cant get there.

the benefit of range is, that it allows marksmen to practically always have some effect.

i also hate the notion that its ok for marksmen to burst the fuck out of tanks and fighters as if they were made out of toilet paper. sustained damage is supposed to be a better tool to take down beefy targets, than burst damage. but that doesnt mean theyre automatically supposed to shred them like they were squishies.

Yes they should, that's how they were designed. And a lot of melee champs have or can have as much consistent damages (yi, jax and maybe others), and they all have tools in their kit to get to close range, control their opponents or replace themselves etc...

The thing is it is necessary for adcs to have the benefit of the range, because they build no defense and are really squishy. If jax or yi builds full AD for instance, it would not work they would get destroyed late game.

That beeing said, the amount of damages must be adjusted correctly. And I trust Riot in this task :)

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

Yes they should, that's how they were designed.

nope. they were designed around their damage being consistent. it shouldnt be as high as that of melee carries and skirmishers who are as squishy as them, but dont have the luxurity of 550 and upwards auto attack range.

their range gives them a massive advantage during the lane phase, siege scenarios and teamfights. thats their main strength. there is no reason for them to have the largest damage potential in the game on top of it all.

when it comes to mobility and self peel, a lot of marksmen are just as well equipped as melee carries are in their engage tools. so thats not really an excuse.

the strategic benefit of being ranged for marksmen is so massive, that they have been mandatory to every team for 8 years now. somewhere, there needs to be an offset. you cant make them as strong or even stronger carries than less consistent melee champions, while giving them more strategic advantages. it leads to exact the cancerous marksmen meta we have been through since the start of season 6.

Smooth562 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEFmoaEF,comment-id=0000000100010000,timestamp=2018-05-13T18:05:43.500+0000)

nope. they were designed around their damage being consistent. it shouldnt be as high as that of melee carries and skirmishers who are as squishy as them, but dont have the luxurity of 550 and upwards auto attack range.

their range gives them a massive advantage during the lane phase, siege scenarios and teamfights. thats their main strength. there is no reason for them to have the largest damage potential in the game on top of it all.

when it comes to mobility and self peel, a lot of marksmen are just as well equipped as melee carries are in their engage tools. so thats not really an excuse.

the strategic benefit of being ranged for marksmen is so massive, that they have been mandatory to every team for 8 years now. somewhere, there needs to be an offset. you cant make them as strong or even stronger carries than less consistent melee champions, while giving them more strategic advantages. it leads to exact the cancerous marksmen meta we have been through since the start of season 6.

The thing is, there is a huge difference between say high, consistent damage and a bit higher, burst damage. A lot of melee champ have the potential to kill a 0 defense item target, in one burst / with their control etc. The adcs don't have that power. I think it is OK for them to have the higher dps, considering they don't have real burst potential (except if fed as for every champ).

Imagine if you toned down adc's dmg by 10%, they would instantly become trash as they were in the beggining of season 7. But I think riot rework will be good.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Imagine if you toned down adc's dmg by 10%, they would instantly become trash as they were in the beggining of season 7. But I think riot rework will be good.

they were never ever trash, including the start of season 7.

for some reason people dont understand that the state of carries had shit to do with the champions or their items themselves. even riot didnt understand this, or didnt care, because they knee jerk buffed the shit out of crit items instead of fixing the game pacing issues they created first.

marksmen were lategame scaling champions at the time. games typically ended between 12 and 20 minutes because 500 gold turret first blood snowballed the game so hard, that in the first 10 minutes, people repeatedly 5 man ganked bot lane.

put 1 and 1 together.

it was also the reason why bot lane ziggs even worked. when games are decided before the 20 minute mark because of turret first blood, then a champion who can 1 shot a turret from 40% health will be viable on bot lane, where the weakest turret is placed.

nothing about ad carries, their damage or their scaling was weak at the time.

Smooth561 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEFmoaEF,comment-id=000000010001000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-14T14:33:10.049+0000)

they were never ever trash, including the start of season 7.

for some reason people dont understand that the state of carries had shit to do with the champions or their items themselves. even riot didnt understand this, or didnt care, because they knee jerk buffed the shit out of crit items instead of fixing the game pacing issues they created first.

marksmen were lategame scaling champions at the time. games typically ended between 12 and 20 minutes because 500 gold turret first blood snowballed the game so hard, that in the first 10 minutes, people repeatedly 5 man ganked bot lane.

put 1 and 1 together.

Still, there were bad at the time for numerous reasons, the thing is now they are at a better place (imo). However the rng that comes with critical strikes isn't ideal, but it is controled rng so that the real % comes out faster than if it was real rng. And there are other problems too, but hopefully the next update will correct that.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Still, there were bad at the time for numerous reasons, the thing is now they are at a better place (imo). However the rng that comes with critical strikes isn't ideal, but it is controled rng so that the real % comes out faster than if it was real rng. And there are other problems too, but hopefully the next update will correct that.

they werent bad at all. games just ended so fast, that there was no way they could become relevant.

that wasnt an issue with adc or their items, but the game itself.

it doesnt matter which lane youre playing. if youre on mid and top lane and get ganked nonstop for 10 minutes because your turret decides the game, giving you no chance to farm or scale, and the game then ending at 15 minutes, then its going to feel like shit no matter which class youre playing.

that was the situation back then.

  • 500 gold turret first blood with >80% winrate. it practically entirely decided over win or loss of games.
  • strong aggressive early game junglers like LeeSin
  • no fortification on the bot lane turret, making it the weakest on the map and the easiest to take first
  • tp ganks were easier before the nefs to the summoner

it was a nonstop clown fiesta on bot lane over that first turret, and then the game just ended within 5 minutes. this is what happened back then, and all there was to it. nothing to do with marksmen themselves. there was absolutely no reason to buff them or their items back then. they just had to scale back the snowball and increase game times. which they eventually did after the crit item buffs and was to a major part responsible of the miserable bot lane coinflip meta that we had to endure for the rest of season 7 and part of this season.

Smooth561 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEFmoaEF,comment-id=00000001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-14T14:41:31.206+0000)

they werent bad at all. games just ended so fast, that there was no way they could become relevant.

that wasnt an issue with adc or their items, but the game itself.

it doesnt matter which lane youre playing. if youre on mid and top lane and get ganked nonstop for 10 minutes because your turret decides the game, giving you no chance to farm or scale, and the game then ending at 15 minutes, then its going to feel like shit no matter which class youre playing.

The adc's were not adapted to the game at the time (and the average game length was more or less the same as before which is 28-29 mins even if you say 15 :/), and you can chose to adapt the whole game or adapt the adcs, they decided to adapt the adcs.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

The adc's were not adapted to the game at the time (and the average game length was more or less the same as before which is 28-29 mins even if you say 15 :/), and you can chose to adapt the whole game or adapt the adcs, they decided to adapt the adcs.

no, it wasnt 30 minutes.

it was literally 12 to 20 minutes game time back then for most games. maybe in lower divisions, games took longer, but at plat and upwards where less throws happen, the bot turret fell as fast as the 6 minute mark, and games snowballed to end by 12 to 20. adc didnt have to be adapted to a meta that wasnt supposed to exist.

they just should have started with fixing game pacing and game times before they even touched marksmen.

Smooth561 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEFmoaEF,comment-id=0000000100010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-14T14:52:30.317+0000)

no, it wasnt 30 minutes.

it was literally 12 to 20 minutes game time back then for most games. maybe in lower divisions, games took longer, but at plat and upwards where less throws happen, the bot turret fell as fast as the 6 minute mark, and games snowballed to end by 12 to 20. adc didnt have to be adapted to a meta that wasnt supposed to exist.

they just should have started with fixing game pacing and game times before they even touched marksmen.

Cognitive bias. You see the past worse as it actually was. Statistics are recorded, and the average game length didn't move a lot during this period, and was 28-29 minutes. (it's a fact you can look it up).

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Cognitive bias. You see the past worse as it actually was. Statistics are recorded, and the average game length didn't move a lot during this period, and was 28-29 minutes. (it's a fact you can look it up).

75% of the player base is playing in bronze and silver, with the majority of those in bronze. did this only take higher ranked games into account or all of them? because if its all of them, then its not a surprise as lower divisions skew those statistics heavily towards longer games.

people in those divisions just blamed their losses on "weak" adc, and spammed the "adc2k17" meme every time they lost their game.

WatchYourHeadM83 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEFmoaEF,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-05-13T08:08:56.829+0000)

they shouldnt. the advantage of playing a ranged carry is exactly that. being ranged, which means more consistent damage through a higher threat range, which gives them also more potential to take down objectives. in return theyre a lot squishier than melee carries.

there is absolutely no reason, marksmen have a higher potential sustained damage than everybody else. their benefit is already in how reliably they can apply their auto attacks.

juggernauts and skirmishers should be equal or even stronger when it comes to damage potential. their downside is, that they have to make it into a position from where they can carry first, while its difficult for them to stay in that position, and theyre also ineffective when they cant get there.

the benefit of range is, that it allows marksmen to practically always have some effect.

i also hate the notion that its ok for marksmen to burst the fuck out of tanks and fighters as if they were made out of toilet paper. sustained damage is supposed to be a better tool to take down beefy targets, than burst damage. but that doesnt mean theyre automatically supposed to shred them like they were squishies.

Lol yea let’s make the mobile melee champs that spam and life steal their way to a penta take over games because the immobile ranged squishies are too broken. Real intelligent ideas here. Honestly I think we should just remove all armor from the game as well so tanks can’t just sit there tanking abilities all fight. It’s just so unfair to the damage players that this tank can tank abilities. Tbh we should just nerf every role but mid because mid should do the most damage, have the most versatile abilities, and last the longest in team fights because that’s more balanced than splitting damage and damage mitigation roles between the front, mid, and back line.

Imagine a world where the weakest and most immobile champ didn’t do any damage and we called it balanced LMFAO

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Lol yea let’s make the mobile melee champs that spam and life steal their way to a penta take over games because the immobile ranged squishies are too broken.

im going to stop you here and then not bother with any further responses, since youre busy building a strawman.

i could make the same argument how spamming auto attacks and lifestealing your way to penta kills on a ranged champion is fucking stupid, because its even easier to accomplish for them.

and the other mistake you made is not realizing, that half the marksman champion pool isnt immobile.

JavelinJoe3 votes

tl;dr : ADCs should be the best physical damage threat on a team since that is their role's design. They are mean to take objectives and kill tanky champions efficiently. They pay for it in low defense. Tanks should not expect to last long vs an ADC because they are not meant to for the most part. They are meant to block incoming burst damage and abilities, engage/disengage enemies, peel, and use CC to protect the team and/or disrupt the enemy. Fighters are meant to be that lingering damage threat second to burst and ADCs though. They are meant for picks, and extended fights because they usually have some kind of sustain or shielding and some or multiple forms of high mobility/cc. If they are not targeted, they should deal good damage, but if focused, they should die fairly quickly because they usually have the means to escape but with lowish defense.

If we think about balance between ADC tanks and mages, then it is similar to a rock, paper, scissors match up. ADC > Tank > Mage > ADC.

juggernauts and skirmishers should be equal or even stronger when it comes to damage potential.

I highly oppose this. They should be higher than tank but less than ADC in terms of damage because they should have the tackiness to survive with the damage to kill, but not burst or heavily chunk. Juggernauts have low mobility, but also have a beefy build and can get enough damage from just 1 offensive item to kill their target. While skirmishers are more mobile but should have less defense than juggernauts because of it. ADCs have almost no defense but have very high damage and sometimes mobility. The more mobile should have less damage, or more DoT type damage (like Lucian) and immobile ones should be the highest damage dealers outside of burst mages and assassins (champions like Kog and Jhin).

there is absolutely no reason, marksmen have a higher potential sustained damage than everybody else. their benefit is already in how reliably they can apply their auto attacks.

the number 1 reason is because they have such a low defense that without sustaining, they likely would never be able to last a fight. As for allowing them to hit from safety because of range, well, melee tanks should not pose much of a kill threat to them because of their roles.

i also hate the notion that its ok for marksmen to burst the fuck out of tanks and fighters as if they were made out of toilet paper. sustained damage is supposed to be a better tool to take down beefy targets, than burst damage. but that doesnt mean theyre automatically supposed to shred them like they were squishies.

I always see this argument used. Tanks do not win vs ADC by a design and balance standpoint. ADCs are meant to tank shred by late game. Some do it sooner than others, but all do it eventually more or less. Fighters though, should also be included in this because they offer more offensive damage while also having defensive capability and mobility (often hard CC too). Tanks should last longer than fighters, but both should get out damaged by ADCs.


Maybe my point would be clearer if we look at it though a point allocation perspective.

Say every champion is given 10 points to use in their stats. And every champion has 3 stats. Damage (AD/AP/%health/True), defense (Health/Armor/MR/Shield), and mobility/utility (MS/Blink/Leap/stun/snare/Dash/etc...).

ADCs load up in damage, put almost nothing into defense, and maybe a few points to mobility/utility. Tanks do almost the inverse, while fighters balance it out between the three.

Say an ADC puts 8 into damage, 2 into mobility/utility, and 0 into defense (someone like Jhin). A tank would put 6 in defense, 1 in damage, and 3 in mobility/utility (someone like Braum). A fighter would be something like 4 damage, 3 defense, and 3 mobility/utility (someone like Vi).

Now this is not a hard restriction. Some fighters have more damage and mobility/utility with less defense than others (Divers) while some are low in mobility but higher in damage and defense (Juggernauts)


I think the main issue with strong ADCs is with the generalist ADCs (Lucian and Ezreal are the 2 big ones). They have usually no significant weaknesses and should pay for it with limited to no strengths. But items/runes tend to cover that cost when the meta is balanced or favorable (remember when Lucian was played every single game vs an Ezreal?).

Wild Geese3 votes

Nowhere close to Dota though, due to the item efficiency and several other reasons like access to hard cc and magic immunity.

Jungle Pennywise3 votes

ADC's complain that they're too squishy and assassins are busted. Assassins get nerfed/ADC's get items that prevent them from being killed. ADC's turn into unstoppable monsters. ADC's get nerfed and assassins get buffed. ADC's begin crying "busted" again and the cycle continues round and round.

All the while tanks and juggernauts are "lul k" hardstomping because "just kite them" doesn't work when every tank/bruiser has a movespeed buff of some kind or takes runes that give it to them anyways like Darius. Meanwhile the excuse that "game isn't balanced on 1v1" means there's an entire class of the game that cannot be 1v1'd by anything, no matter what.

Lmao. Cool balance, Riot. No wonder LCS is braindead to watch. 3 tanks, a mid-range control mage and a safe ADC like Tristana or Sivir in 9/10 games makes for some ResidentSleeper.

AirKingNeo3 votes

#ADC OVERLORDS ######but the boards has like 5 adc players

also can I please remind you nerfing ADC builds by 700 fucking gold is huge. BoRK literally went unviable from a mere 200 gold nerf, you all said IE became too strong from a 200 gold buff. 700 is WAY FUCKING HUGE!

Pika Fox2 votes

The problem is you think adcs are OP. That circle jerk died last patch. Assassins and tanks are the new circle jerk.

CrestfallenNight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEFmoaEF,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-05-14T14:55:22.736+0000)

The problem is you think adcs are OP. That circle jerk died last patch. Assassins and tanks are the new circle jerk.

Tank meta being new lol

KZ Engel1 votes

supports break adc*

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