Garen is worse off than he was before the Juggernaut changes

Chaotic Reks·Oct 9, 2015·21 votes·1,739 views

But his ult does true damage to one person under unique circumstances so he's obviously OP. ffs people... http://replygif.net/i/197.gif

36 Comments

MatezoideOct 9, 201510 votes

"BUT HE DID 2k TRUE DAMAGE TO ME WHEN I HAD 10 HP LEFT OMFG RITO PLZ"

Maximum MordeOct 9, 20157 votes

He's worse off in the sense that he is permabanned.

Chaotic ReksOct 9, 20153 votes

Everything in his kit is worse than pre juggernaut changes. The only thing he got was free armor/mr and a gimmicky ult passive.

Ignis0Oct 9, 20152 votes

Yeah except all those items they added. You do realize that although his personal stats were nerfed he received an overall buff because of the new items?

Chaotic ReksOct 9, 20152 votes

The only thing that was added recently that was good for him was item 3742 . Some people buy item 3748 but it's kind of a niche pick that only works with his Q.

Edit: He also uses item 3053 really well

CroaninOct 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEEWgGXb,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-10-09T13:13:26.777+0000)

He's worse off in the sense that he is permabanned.

Seriously, I can't deal with the Riven mains that dump my Wukong anymore with Garen permabanned.

On a serious note, he's stronger then he was before imo. Largely because he does far more damage while building less damage.

However the real annoying issue is how popular he. Even in Season 3 when he was constantly spammed it's annoying dealing with Garen all the time cause the fucker just doesn't die.

Maximum MordeOct 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Seriously, I can't deal with the Riven mains that dump my Wukong anymore with Garen permabanned.

On a serious note, he's stronger then he was before imo. Largely because he does far more damage while building less damage.

However the real annoying issue is how popular he. Even in Season 3 when he was constantly spammed it's annoying dealing with Garen all the time cause the fucker just doesn't die.

Take Chogath or Morgana top lane and dumpster her ass.

NazZomLordOct 9, 20156 votes

Before the juggernaut changes he was decent early, best mid and feel off pretty hard late. You cant be as agro as before with the smaller healing on passive, mid game is his best and you better make good use of it, and late game you just are a hunk of meat that takes damage and never dies. But unlike before you can get stun locked pretty easily, and rely on Villains to get damage and kills. http://orig03.deviantart.net/ac5f/f/2012/329/1/9/facedesk_by_tao63-d5m3rzb.gif

71389310_DELOct 9, 20155 votes

Call me crazy, but I actually like the "gimmick" of Garen's new kit. I returned to LoL recently, am now in the process of re-learning the game from scratch, yada blah-ha, etc. One of the things that is keeping me here now is the fact Riot is experimenting with new ideas for champions/their kits, etc. and while some of them, when put into practice, are just shy of being an abomination ( Mordekaiser, Skarner, Bard, etc. ) I felt Garen's was one of the better ones. Don't get me wrong: Old Garen was strong ( underestimated IMO ) and New Garen, in spite of having had his skills nerfed, may be just a bit too strong due to his synergy with items/spells such as ( feel free to hover over the item pictures/champs below to see stats ) Black Cleaver + Zz'Rot Portal + Deadman's plate allow him to rush into the fray because of the movement speed boosts/tankiness, add in a Last Whisper and you have lots of armor pen; supports with any sort of movement speed boost, slow or shield help Garen to stick onto a target and do shocking sums of damage, etc. but the "gimmick" of having a "villain" to slay made him a lot more fun to play.

Having a rival to best gives me a clearer goal when I play Garen: attack and/or protect my team from X in skirmishes. Getting a teammate to boost my speed or shield me is exciting now because I know I can keep up with my target and potentially destroy them. When I'm not involved in teamfights I can splitpush using my strong waveclear and Zz'Rot portal and draw people off my team. If my foes aren't thinking well they send the Villain to fight me and if I'm in a duel I can't win I know I can just outrun my foe because of my massive movespeed. With the old Garen everything was binary and/or predictable which made him less fun to play.

TL;DR: I think Garen 's new mechanic makes him more exciting to play and that his "gimmick" is one of the better ones released recently. I think he just has more synergy with items ( item 3512 item 3071 item 3742 ) than he used to. I think he has more synergy with champions kitted with speed/shield buffs ( Zilean Morgana Lulu ) than he used to. I think that the new Garen , by himself, is weaker than the old Garen was.

JustMyBassCannonOct 9, 20154 votes

To be fair, bruiser item changes also helped. A lot.

Unlucky Number7Oct 9, 20153 votes

but garen's kit is so simple he's in danger of being overshadowed by a champion who does bassically the same thing but because he has a higher skill floor he's better in every way.

EpicusmaximoOct 9, 20152 votes

Yeah... it's a shame that Riot has a track record of buffing/changing, then knee jerk reaction over nerfing. Honestly the way I feel about it is I don't want to see anymore buffs, because there's a really high chance that Riot will fuck it up, and just over nerf and the champ will be worse off over the original.

Big LincolnOct 9, 20152 votes

the villain mechanic is kinda dumb

would pref just having stronger kit instead of a gimmick

XaviorZeroBlazerOct 9, 20152 votes

no it's that he's stupid hard to kill if he's slightly ahead or has good farm. I ban him because he is a massive pain in the ass, same with blitz

AyRe CoNteMpTOct 9, 20151 votes

new garen pretty good!

shadecrapperOct 9, 20151 votes

I see what you did there. Good one ;)

KnighRriderOct 9, 20151 votes

The problem with Garen is not his ult. Its that hes picked EVERY GAME and is always strong regardless of whether he feeds or not, and I still haven't seen a champion that can 1v1 him late game. I tried playing Riv top the other day and was up against a Garen. I didn't do bad, I didn't feed him i just kept my distance.. then he DCs for like 10 minutes and I took top turret. Now I'm 3-4 lvls above him with 2 full items. He reconnects, rushes me wile im recalling so decide to kill him. Only instead for some reason he tanks all my dmg and kills me in 5 seconds(I wasn't the villain), then proceeds to carry his entire team to victory! We were forced to choose in a teamfight to focus his team or him, and if we focused him; his team would kill us(he still usually survived), and if we focused his team; HE would get a quadra kill! it was retarded he was like fed Alistar tanky only with crazy bruiser damage.

CroaninOct 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The problem with Garen is not his ult. Its that hes picked EVERY GAME and is always strong regardless of whether he feeds or not, and I still haven't seen a champion that can 1v1 him late game. I tried playing Riv top the other day and was up against a Garen. I didn't do bad, I didn't feed him i just kept my distance.. then he DCs for like 10 minutes and I took top turret. Now I'm 3-4 lvls above him with 2 full items. He reconnects, rushes me wile im recalling so decide to kill him. Only instead for some reason he tanks all my dmg and kills me in 5 seconds(I wasn't the villain), then proceeds to carry his entire team to victory! We were forced to choose in a teamfight to focus his team or him, and if we focused him; his team would kill us(he still usually survived), and if we focused his team; HE would get a quadra kill! it was retarded he was like fed Alistar tanky only with crazy bruiser damage.

That story sounds exaggerated, 4 levels ahead on a Riven if you avoid his silence you should have wrecked him. But your absolutely right, I almost always see Garen end with an impressive KDA by the end of the game no more then 5 deaths or so with like 7+ kills because he can just stay in the fight for so long.

BiBoX2Oct 10, 20151 votes

He does not exaggrate, it's just his Riven had repelled a gank, and had like 8% HP left while recalling...

KnighRriderOct 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That story sounds exaggerated, 4 levels ahead on a Riven if you avoid his silence you should have wrecked him. But your absolutely right, I almost always see Garen end with an impressive KDA by the end of the game no more then 5 deaths or so with like 7+ kills because he can just stay in the fight for so long.

Oh well I didn't have the match right before that post so I probably did exaggerate a bit from memory. but your solution was avoid his silence... its a basic attack and I only have a .75 second stun xD i dont get to avoid that. Unless i run away until its gone and go in when its up, but ive been in that situation and he still does enough dmg and stays alive long enough to have it off cool down to use again(not to mention if his ult is up). I'm just tired of seeing him run to my team mate out of no where, spin for a few seconds, and then just ult for the kill.

For The AlliancéOct 9, 20151 votes

Garens rework was literally designed so anybody can use him. For example: when somebody first plays LOL they don't know who to focus in a fight but with Garen's ults passive the idea is whoever is getting kills is the one worth focusing therefore it shows there face above his head and you can kill them easier. He's strong because he's so simple and can get shut downs easier so he gets more gold when he gets kills. He's easy to beat if you can kite him and keep your hp up or if you not the villian and you can out duel him.

JefftiffyOct 9, 20151 votes

The problem with the people who are pro-Garen right now. You don't realize how much increased speed and damage means in 1v1. You don't realize that tank itemization was also hard buffed. You also don't realize they gave Garen a mechanic that helps when you are behind but useless while ahead. If the enemy team gets 0 kills you will never have a Villain. The thing was not only did they make him even more toxic with the rework they gave him items that help him get in and stick better as well as gave him a trade off for being 1v1 instead of a downside. He is a tank and he is meant to spin in the enemy team and soak damage not 1v1 some fed person and yell Demacia all game. Yelling Demacia may be his specialty but it is supposed to be something reserved for people who are low on hp in a team fight or very early 1v1s. He shouldn't be hunting down some random guy from across the map because they have been marked or given an incentive for chasing someone out of a team fight because they are doing well.

NemeBroOct 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The problem with the people who are pro-Garen right now. You don't realize how much increased speed and damage means in 1v1. You don't realize that tank itemization was also hard buffed. You also don't realize they gave Garen a mechanic that helps when you are behind but useless while ahead. If the enemy team gets 0 kills you will never have a Villain. The thing was not only did they make him even more toxic with the rework they gave him items that help him get in and stick better as well as gave him a trade off for being 1v1 instead of a downside. He is a tank and he is meant to spin in the enemy team and soak damage not 1v1 some fed person and yell Demacia all game. Yelling Demacia may be his specialty but it is supposed to be something reserved for people who are low on hp in a team fight or very early 1v1s. He shouldn't be hunting down some random guy from across the map because they have been marked or given an incentive for chasing someone out of a team fight because they are doing well.

Garen has very little crowd control. If he did no damage, there would be no reason at all to focus him, since he would be easily ignored in team fights.

Tanky, high damage, low mobility, and weak crowd control. Fair.

Slamurai JackOct 10, 20151 votes

How does everyone forget that his E scales way, way , way harder than it did pre-rework?

JustMyBassCannonOct 10, 20151 votes

But it has a worse early-game, which was the focus of the old Garen design.

Slamurai JackOct 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But it has a worse early-game, which was the focus of the old Garen design.

You can keep your stronger early game. I'll happily take meaningful scaling as a trade.

JustMyBassCannonOct 10, 20151 votes

Didn't say the scaling shift was a bad thing necessarily, only that it was the old Garen's strength.

Garen lost a lot of early game power in favor of late-game strength. Which makes perfect sense, but gets people complaining because he's more than a surprise pick kicking them in the teeth for the early game.

Slamurai JackOct 10, 20151 votes

I'm not convinced that Garen is that much weaker early than he was. His spin damage is less, yes, but having 175 auto range instead of 125 makes an absolutely enormous difference and can get you plenty of free damage that pre-rework Garen wouldn't have gotten. All in all, Garen takes a slight hit early game for massively stronger scaling and the very powerful villain mechanic, as well as access to the new Juggernaught items which are amazing on him. Overall, it's an enormous net buff even after being nerfed multiple times since the rework, and I'm glad Garen is no longer a joke champion anymore.

JustMyBassCannonOct 10, 20151 votes

He lost a significant amount of early-game power. Silence duration went down, his mobility went down, his resistance bonus lost the Tenacity and scaling, and the spin is weaker early-game.

Yes, the attack range boost and the late game scaling are nice, and it's obvious that it's doing wonders for him. I'm not saying the rework didn't make him better, I'm just saying it would be absolutely ignorant to deny that his early game was actually pretty significantly nerfed in favor of making his late game actually effective, instead of having a spinning meat slab that either did jack shit (because he built no damage) or died instantly (because he built pure damage).

Slamurai JackOct 10, 20151 votes

I'll grant you that the spin is weaker and the mobility is lower but that's it. The silence duration is the same until lvl 8 anyways and early game is over by then. The flat resistances that W gives you for CSing are almost always more than the 20% bonus resistances would have given you by the time you have W, since it stacks from your very first CS. The loss of tenacity on his W is a far bigger deal in teamfights than it is in lane, although it is still technically worse for his early game. The lower mobility and weaker spin are definitely not as good but not so much worse that is really changes how you have to play Garen. You can still very easily bully most of the same people that old Garen bullied. His pre 25 minute win rate is still really high for a reason.

JustMyBassCannonOct 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEEWgGXb,comment-id=000e000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-10T06:52:00.352+0000)

I'll grant you that the spin is weaker and the mobility is lower but that's it. The silence duration is the same until lvl 8 anyways and early game is over by then.

Fair enough.

The flat resistances that W gives you for CSing are almost always more than the 20% bonus resistances would have given you by the time you have W, since it stacks from your very first CS.

If your runes and masteries aren't giving you any bonus resistances, and you don't buy any early-game, then that's true.

The loss of tenacity on his W is a far bigger deal in teamfights than it is in lane, although it is still technically worse for his early game. The lower mobility and weaker spin are definitely not as good but not so much worse that is really changes how you have to play Garen. You can still very easily bully most of the same people that old Garen bullied. His pre 25 minute win rate is still really high for a reason.

You make fair points, and I wasn't trying to imply that they removed Garen's early-game strength. There was a power shift, and power was taken from his early- and mid-game to put towards his late-game.

CroaninOct 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He lost a significant amount of early-game power. Silence duration went down, his mobility went down, his resistance bonus lost the Tenacity and scaling, and the spin is weaker early-game.

Yes, the attack range boost and the late game scaling are nice, and it's obvious that it's doing wonders for him. I'm not saying the rework didn't make him better, I'm just saying it would be absolutely ignorant to deny that his early game was actually pretty significantly nerfed in favor of making his late game actually effective, instead of having a spinning meat slab that either did jack shit (because he built no damage) or died instantly (because he built pure damage).

He's weaker early game but due to his naturally tanky nature and passive not many champions can bully him out of lane, before he starts ramping up.

KnighRriderOct 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEEWgGXb,comment-id=000e0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-10T06:28:33.193+0000)

I'm not convinced that Garen is that much weaker early than he was. His spin damage is less, yes, but having 175 auto range instead of 125 makes an absolutely enormous difference and can get you plenty of free damage that pre-rework Garen wouldn't have gotten. All in all, Garen takes a slight hit early game for massively stronger scaling and the very powerful villain mechanic, as well as access to the new Juggernaught items which are amazing on him. Overall, it's an enormous net buff even after being nerfed multiple times since the rework, and I'm glad Garen is no longer a joke champion anymore.

Not even sure if hes weaker early game.. I'm up against him almost every match I play top and I'm always on my toes because poke is useless with his passive, and if you try to kill him and don't your screwed because he come back full heath and you'll still be low.

GunpointOct 10, 20151 votes

Idk what you are trying to say. Garen is an all around good champion. item 3742 item 3053 item 3071 item 3065 item 1321 item 3031 is my build and seems to work very well.