So... Thornmail

Tik115··19 votes·10,000 views

I like to consider Thornmail to be the Irelia of Items, The thing is on such a fine knife edge that any changes could very easily throw it into OP territory or Olaf'd Territory, But what I think that we should talk about this item because baring a few occasions Thornmail isn't a widly picked item, So lets look at why it isn't

item 3075 Costs 2.2k Gold 100 Armour Reflects 30% of AA damage back as Magic damage

item 3110 Costs 2.6k Gold 100 Armour 20% CDR 400 Mana Attack speed slow Aura

item 3143 Costs: 3K gold 500 HP 70 Armour Movespeed slow active Attack speed slow on hit passive

So lets go ahead and start with the most obvious one, Thornmail is a Selfish item the Frozen heart and Randuins bring something that can help the entire team, with the Frozen Heeart its the Aura, with Randuins its the Active but the Thornmail its just there only aiding if the person is attacked, Secondly the stats, the most gold efficient item there is the Frozen Heart with the CDR Mana and Armour and even the Randuins, if we go by the whole effective health mindset (1 armour = 1% more effective health on a champion with 1k Health Thornmail gives 2k Effective health where as Randuins gives 2.2k Effective health and the final one is counters, It is incredibly easy to counter Armour, a last whisper alone will counter Thornmail were as to fully counter Randuins you need 2 items (BoTRK for item 2) or can't counter at all (Frozen heart aura, Ardent Censor is too weak to be considered a proper counter to it since the Aura is constant).

This leaves Thornmail in a position where it is a very niche pick and only works on a few champions (Rammus ) and is outshined by the other armour items in everything except costs.

So should Thornmail be buffed? personally speaking I think it should since on paper it is the ultimate shut down for carries but is far too weak to do that job mostly because its a Selfish Item and is too easily countered, so I'm just gonna throw a few ideas I thought of and try to explain them regardless of how OP they are

  1. 30% of ALL Physical damage, this includes spells that do Physical damage There are far less AA dependent champions right now then when Thornmail came out, a Zed wouldn't bat an eyelid at Thornmail, Lucian Laughs at Thornmail and Khazix will happily claw at Thornmail without a care, by giving Thornmail this added threat of "if you use your damaging AD spell on me your going to get hurt" it would mean that AD casters would have to take a big risk engadging on a Thornmail user

  2. Active: For the next 5 seconds all AA and On hit effect damage causes a small explosion dealing (X + X% of Bonus Armour) around the player Basically what if Randuins had a damaging active for 5 seconds? this would move Thornmail away from being a selfish item into something that would give the enemy some concern, if they attack the Thronmail user then they risk taking damage from the active but if they wait that player has 5 seconds to cause havok in the lines or lock down the team for the follow up and the reason its damage scaled by Armour is just to prevent a none tank building it and becoming an unstoppable menace, the only real problem I see with this is a few champions (Namely Rammus and Leona) could become broken with this item

  3. Aura: Reduces Enemy Crit damage by X% Pretty simple, if it only gives 1 stat make it so that it can do something to offset its ease of counter, by reducing crit damage suddenly ADCs can't walk all over champions with their 1k Damage crits, Honestly though these seems the most broken of the suggestions I have

  4. Increase the Armour to 120 Simple is as Simple does.

  5. Reflects 30% of AA damage back as magic damage And applies Grievous wounds for 5 seconds

67 Comments

RiotPsyKzz10 votes

-2. Active: For the next 5 seconds all AA and On hit effect damage causes a small explosion dealing (X + X% of Bonus Armour) around the player

I feel it would be a little too strong with this, maybe nerf the armour along with it as well. Otherwise i like this change.

darkdill1 votes

I can see one major problem with this type: if a support were to accidentally shoot someone with a Thornmail at the wrong time, this could end up causing said support to kill his/her teammate.

Griefer potential located. Hard to pull off, but still there.

Skiren3 votes

Well it's unlikely the support would be the only one with the ADC by the time a thornmail is in play(assuming you meant a sup while in bot lane), it's just something you'd have to get used to. I mean I'm sure people even still AA Jax while he's spinning.

Serpents Embrace3 votes

That's a really harsh definition of griefing.

Obviously griefing is doing something intentionally to harm your allies. If you could USE your OWN Thornmail to kill an ally, yeah - that'd be griefing.

Having an ENEMY cause something that you kill an ally with is different. You'd need to have the enemy activation their thornmail within range of the ally you wanted to "grief" and then go to town. There's so much coordination there that you don't control and don't really have the access to influence that calling that griefing is kind of absurd. In the same thought train you must consider Zilean to be a huge cause of griefing, since it's possible for his bombs to be brought by his opponents to their low health allies.

ChaosThief1 votes

I think he means the ally hits the enemy with said effect and that kills their ally.

RiotPsyKzz1 votes

To combat this you could return based of the AA damage along with the amour.

Skiren3 votes

Personally I like the first option the most, because typically tanks don't have much they can do against like bruisers and even assassins, with thornmail helping with that not at ALL.(it feels like a waste to buy an item for only the ADC when really the ADC wouldn't even be going for you if they're good) And even ADCs do do a lot of AD damage with their abilities, it would be nice to combat all the poke a bit.

RIPGG Cali 2 votes

1 For Sure.
Option 1 Brings TM from the Passed into the future with ad casters.

Tik1152 votes

-2. Active: For the next 5 seconds all AA and On hit effect damage causes a small explosion dealing (X + X% of Bonus Armour) around the player

I feel it would be a little too strong with this, maybe nerf the armour along with it as well. Otherwise i like this change.

Obviously I'm not too savy with game balance being a lowly Gold but my mindset was this

Thornmail while very powerful against all AD team is an incredibly Niche pick, now don't get me wrong we need niche picks and niche picks are going to happen but at the same time just because its a niche item doesn't mean it shouldn't get some love every now and then, so I figured a simple question "What if Thornmail was a more aggressive Randuins?" and came up with that

I mean I think the passive alone would be a good pick-up even if it had an armour nerf so long as its not so extreme.

So Lemmi give this another shot, if the passive went through but the Armour was lowered I'd go with

item 3075

Cost: The same Recipie: The same, or swap the cloth with ether another Chain vest or iunno...A Longsword? (Cause its like knifes on the armour, eh? eh?...forget it)

Stats: 80 Armour Unique Passive: Reflects 30% of AA damage back to target as magic damage Unique Active: Shattering Spikes: For the next 5 seconds all AA damage and on hit effect spells cause a small explosion dealing (Champion level X 5) + 10% of BONUS Armour as magic damage Dealing less damage (up to 40% less) nearer to the edge (Range about the same as Randuins Active)

Mindset: The armour is nerf obviously because it apparently needs it (I don't agree personally but what do I know?) now the active, if a Champion is level 18 with 300 Bonus armour Thats 120 a hit at close range and 76 as hit at the edge, it basically creates a situation where the Thornmail user becomes a form of Zoning but not to the point where it becomes stupid but just enough so that just sidestepping the damage wouldn't leave you unscaved (unless you have alot of MR in which case you can laugh at the damage)

Again I'm not expert on game balance and would love to hear more input on this (and the others don't ignore the others cause a red liked this one).

RiotPsyKzz3 votes

Whoa Whoa, im only Gold as well, and really my gameplay knowledge is limited at best. Im just giving my own opinion on what I think, you've most likely got a better opinion than me anyway.

I didn't want to knock your idea either, i just wanted to make you think.

I always tend to play devil's advocate, even at work (to others dismay )!

Tik1151 votes

Well I wasn't wording it to say "This guy is a red he knows more then me" I was just thinking more "Huh, I wonder if he asked anyone in the office first?".

I mean if thats the case I'll give my opinion on why I don't think the armour nerf would be needed if it got that passive

If the active is on a midly long cooldown (Lets say 120 seconds) That gives Thornmail a window where it is more of a "Selfish item" (People have said it isn't but personally speaking it feels like one to me) meaning it loses a significant level of efficiency since now the holder of it has to depend on the enemy team all blindly focusing him to do the same effect, which of course they won't do. most of the time which means for 120 seconds after that active the tank has lost a significant amount of threat, if a fight erupts before those 120 seconds are up the enemy team know that should the thronmail user dive in they'll be safe from the AOE damage.

I mean I suppose if those from the balance team say its too powerful then maybe iunno maybe a reduction of its Armour when its on cooldown? add a little risk/reward for it? Idunno

Ark Angel HFB1 votes

My God... a humble red that is honest and like discussions...

Can... can you like go hang out with the Narrative Team and maybe like... rub off on them or something.

#-bitterlorefanisbitter

Jesus is Savior1 votes

How about making it build into a higher tier item (for like 1000 more gold?) so it can give you like 300 health too?

The actual reason most people don't buy it is because tanks melt if they don't buy health, and Warmogs is garbage. So if you buy a thornmail, you're reducing your total health in your final build. ESPECIaLLY if you also have a Frozen Heart.

PatMcGroyn1 votes

Warmogs + Thornmail is actually a really nice combo- it scales a lot better than a Sunfire Cape does. In a normal bruiser build though, you're right that it's either Frozen Heart or Thornmail; functionally there generally isn't enough slot space for 2 armor only items. Especially when you want the Randuins AoE slow. That said, if your champ has a good amount of CC already, you could always just go Warmogs + FH + Thornmail, and skip out on the omen. That would leave enough item slots for boots, an MR item, and an offensive item.

GhastlyGhoulMan1 votes

I think that would be a cool active ability, especially since it gives it a buff while introducing some counterplay with that active (stop attacking the tank for 5 seconds or you will kill your team). Riot should try it out on the PBE and experiment with it. :)

67chrome8 votes
  1. 30% of ALL Physical damage, this includes spells that do Physical damage

Main purpose of Thornmail is to counter life-steal. Physical abilities only use spell vamp for sustain, which is a stat basically no champions are going to have.

Also - burst damage has the issue where you QWER something without that 4~6 second warnign your health is gradually draining out. As amussing as watching a Lee Sin explode himself while nuking you would be, that's pretty solidly off the knife edge and well into broken territory.

  1. Active: For the next 5 seconds all AA and On hit effect damage causes a small explosion dealing (X + X% of Bonus Armour) around the player

Not opposed.

Really like the armor scaling idea, rather than using your opponent's scaling against them.

Also seems very Legion Commander or Axe, where you actually turn the numbers of your opponent's against them if they keep smacking you. Pretty solid for fulfilling a tank fantasy.

Certainly my favorite ability of the bunch.

  1. Aura: Reduces Enemy Crit damage by X%

Horrible idea. %AS slows still reduce the overall %DPS of AD, AS, Crit, life steal, and critical strikes. So does the %DR from armor as well as the %auto-attack DR on Tabi.

Specifically targeting crit damage only hits crit damage, which only, like, 3 champions actually start with.

tack it on at a low value, and it's useless.

Make it actually useful - and then Bloodthirster+Kingblade+Last Whisper+Black Cleaver+Hurricane builds could become a thing - once again making caster-esuqe marksman the supreme choice in the most 'auto-attack' reliant class, giving us another year of champions like Corki, Ezreal, and Lucian being the top picks rather than marksman actually focused on AAing things like Tristana and Kog'Maw.

  1. Increase the Armour to 120

Making it simply more cost-efficient is mostly placing it in the "useful because OP" zone. You're simply inflating it with more power.

Unless it would get a price hike with the change, in which case you'd arguably make the item worse - as it would be more unavailable as a counter-build choice, and more limited specifically to tanks.

RookPusher4 votes

I buy it when necessary. If the person I fear most on their team is high AD, then I'm going to take it as 5th item. To give you some context I Jungle Main as Maokai. I'm always going to run Gauntlets, Boots, Sunfire, and SV first. After that I'm assessing. Generally I'm taking Frozen Heart or Randuins next, but it's a gut-feel thing.

I don't think it's a dumb item. Returning 30% damage hurts, but the return has to be there.

A Dirge4 votes

Pretty interesting options. I don't mind Thornmail where it is as a niche pick, personally. Sure, it's always going to be efficient against double ADC comps. Just like Aegis is always going to be efficient against double AP ones. But unlike Aegis, by the time someone gets around to building a Thornmail(fourth or fifth item a lot of times), the ADC's generally have enough sustain/at least the start of a BV/GA that mitigates a lot of the reflective damage anyway.

The main issue I have with it being that it seems to have a difficult time actually doing it's job. It's a counter item..with easy counters. The ADC's it's meant to help shut down don't really need to consider buying anything differently than they normally would to mitigate its effectiveness.

That said, it's still extremely effective in the right situation. If you're tanky and can force the ADC's to deal with you first, it's going to help. It's just hard to put above more rounded options like Randuin's or super cost efficient ones like FH.

Tik1152 votes

which is the reason why I tried to incite discussion, sure Thornmail is good in some picks BUT 90% of the time you just roll a Randuins, since it has been well over a year (well 1 year since its last any kind of update or almost 2 years since any kind of stat or cost change) since the last update I figured it might want some love, i get theres tons of items needing some love (Executioners calling) but I'm just going by Items that I like

thunderingice4 votes

First, thornmail is semipopular at the pro level already on any tank champion if it is against the right team comps (double ad or all 3 lanes bringing physical damage) so I don't think it is in a bad spot. It a niche item, but it fills its niche very well, and unlike many niche items, its niche comes up fairly frequently.

Second, I don't think it would healthy for the game to make it a stronger item. Items that punish ppl for doing good things (auto attacking is not supposed to feel bad) are inherently questionable at best. I could see arguments for a rework, but putting thornmail in the slot that ranuins used to occupy (most recently) seems both bad for itemization on tanks in general as well as bad for the game health in role interactions. I would argue that currently all of the major armor items have a specific role that they should fill in tank itemization. I really don't think the balance between them should be messed with.

redniwediS3 votes

I typically buy Thornmail, but I will admit if I didn't main Garen I would likely swap it out for Frozen Heart. I mostly get it for the additional magic damage.

Samflash33 votes

Here's the problem I have with Thornmail. It is too counterable and doesn't offer any cool spell effect.

  1. Too Counterable - Thornmail relies on you to autoattack the opponent which is all well and good for dealing with Crit based Autoattacking enemies. But it poses a problem

a. Characters that build BorK can ignore a lot of the damage since BorK on-hit doesn't take much damage from it.

b. Assassins/spellcasting bruisers (which there are a lot of them) don't take damage from Thornmail since they hardly auto. They also build Black Cleaver which shreds that armour that would have been increased.

c. Last Whisper counters it even more

d. Isn't a tank item anymore. It's just a bunch of armor. When it could reduce damage taken, it was the real tank item. So why can't thornmail reduce all physical damage by a percentage?

e. Is countered by magic resist also. So Bork counters it, Magic resist counters it, enough lifesteal counters it, Last whisper counters it, spells counter it. Why even bother unless you're rammus?

  1. No Cool special effect - Why doesn't thornmail proc Liandry? (Lol jks but it would offer some cool itemization for tanky mages)
Tik1151 votes

As I said in my original post Thornmail consisting of 1 stat means it only needs 1 item to counter it, where as the Randuins needs 2 and the Frozen heart is mostly uncounterable (minus well used Ardent Censers) this along with its lack of gold efficiency leaves it buried under these 2 items hence why I decided to start a discussion about it.

Champion Skin1 votes

Actually Ardent Censer doesn't counter Frozen heart or Randuin's attack speed slows because the attack speed slows are counted last... so the more attack speed you have the more attack speed you lose

Zok723 votes

I tend to favor simplicity in balance and therefore support options 1 and 4, though option 3 (as a secondary way of reducing enemy throughput) is pretty attractive (though if you went the route of option 3 I would prefer it as a when-hit debuff like randuins AA slow).

As you noted already, the item with the greatest throughput (health efficiency) is randuins, which also has the greatest benefit against magic damage (the non-optimal case) and the most reliably valuable effect (AOE slow). Making it so that Thornmail was the king of throughput in the optimal case (against an ADC) would give it a valuable niche. This would help set up the three lategame armor items as each having its own separate value, Randuins would be the "generalist" (slow + health works against everything), thornmail would be the "anti-physical damage" (less damage from crits, more armor, works against AD casters, helps you kill AD in a duel), and frozen heart would be "CC/initiation physical tank" (CDR and mana for more spells, aura instead of on-hit effect so if other people get targeted they still get benefit).

As you might have noticed, my final version of thornmail includes 1, 3 (as an effect that occurs when hit), and 4 but remains bad against magic damage and has no offensive capabilities (except when being dealt damage) and is still purely selfish. The idea here is to add power to thornmail in a way that retains its identity. It shouldn't be a less selfish item, it should just be the *BEST *selfish item.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I don'T think thornmale does really need any buffs. It'S more armor in generall that could use a bit help. The main problem is armorpen, with a item 3071 in ur team and item 3035 on ur self, u ignore over 50% of the enmys armor, which is combined with the hyper multiplicative scaling from adc a deathsentence for armor in the lategame.

Zanphyra2 votes

I don'T think thornmale does really need any buffs. It'S more armor in generall that could use a bit help. The main problem is armorpen, with a item 3071 in ur team and item 3035 on ur self, u ignore over 50% of the enmys armor, which is combined with the hyper multiplicative scaling from adc a deathsentence for armor in the lategame.

This. Also BOTRK passive makes it a bit less effective.

g07h4xf003 votes

Your entire post completely undervalues item 3075 .

This game has been sitting on an ADC meta for a while. The whole point of Thornmail is to make it so that you can still hurt ranged AD champions that try to kite you forever. Also, you're suppose to build thornmail with one of the other items that compliment it.

Suppose we have a DrMundo or maybe a Irelia (since you mentioned her). Really it could be any front line champion that builds defense items.

If that champion runs at a Lucian (who is a terribly designed champion that needs to be gutted) while having item 3047 item 3143 item 3075 , that Lucian is going to have a really bad time.

It's true that item 3075 might not proc with his abilities, but it definitely procs with his auto attacks which (by mid/late game) is far more devastating and does way more damage than any of his abilities. Take it from me, I play frontline tanks all the time and everytime I look at my death summary it says something like:

-"200 total damage from abilities" -"1900 physical damage from basic attacks"

Also, that 30% return is BEFORE armor calculation. With the 3 items I mentioned above, a front line champ can easily hit 300 armor. TAke off 39% from item 3035 + mastery penetration and another flat 20 from item 3142 and you have 163 armor. That's equivalent to 62% physical damage reduction. Reduce another 10% from item 3047 and you have a total of 66% reduction from auto attacks. If Lucian somehow crits you for 1000 damage, he will take 300 damage and you will take 333 damage. Auto attacks are the primary way for ADCs to do damage. Just from item 3075 you're almost matching his damage completely. If you then go on to use any of your abilities, auto attacks, etc, that Lucian will likely die first unless they have a pesky Nami to save their ass / peel for them.

In summary, Thornmail is not a niche item. It's superior to item 3068 in every way. If you play a frontline tanky champion (Singed DrMundo Amumu Irelia Shyvana etc) then you pretty much have to buy item 3075 , unless the enemy team has like 4 AP champions and a KogMaw, in which case you're better off just sticking to a item 3143 and some MR items. It's too bad MR itemization currently blows.

In summary, buff item 3075 with one simple change: make it immune to penetration (since it's an all-armor item). Maybe then it will get more people to notice it and buy it more.

Tik1151 votes

I think FULL immunity to penetration is a bit much I mean think about it if Thornmail had 100% immunity to Armour pen then literally everyone would get it, EVERYONE and if the small stage where the game became League of Cleavers or League of Warmogs is anything to go by, thats not healthy

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

I would really like it if it did SOMETHING. Especially with the large prevalence of AD casters compared to the inception of this item. (Since League's release, we've steadily been getting champions who build AD yet focus more on using abilities/have abilities that do most of their damage. See: Darius Ezreal Garen Graves Khazix Lucian Pantheon Renekton Talon, etc)

Frayace2 votes

I like number 1 the best. If it's a problem, they can reduce the number to like 27% or 25%

Imperial Red2 votes

Thornmail is not a selfish item. It provides the initiator with some free damage just by being a target, weakening the enemy team. Does a nice bit of life steal counter as well, like when a Warwick is coming at you. Not a total shutdown, but enough to keep him from staying completely healthy.

Mawootad2 votes

Thornmail is a good item though. It's one of the biggest threat items a tank can pick up late game; another big tanky item might make you live a second longer, but the sheer damage output of a thornmail can be enough to actually let your seriously threaten the enemy adc. It's a late game situational item, and unless it was changed in a way to completely gut its current role, it will never be a common pickup because even in the games where it is a good buy the game typically wont go long enough for it to be the right buy.

SnowFall2 votes

I would go with 1st one

Tik1152 votes

I'm honestly surprised on how much discussion and opinions this has gotten, hopefully we can get more reds here and have a real big discussion.

fingers crossed

Tik1152 votes

after some looking into it I added a 5th possible buff

Reflects 30% of AA damage back as magic damage And applies Grievous wounds for 5 seconds

Why? Because BOTRK alone can counteract Thornmails healing/kills the target so quick Thornmail becomes useless

Diamonesd1 votes

[deleted]

Tik1152 votes

See I would shut up but it appears to be making discussion so I'm afraid I can't do that, go take your rudeness elsewhere.

Blobby Flay1 votes

Passive: Total/bonus armor is increased by X%

Tik1151 votes

Could work but I don't think it fits the Thornmails Theme, I'd expect the Frozen heart to have that active since it seems more Thematic to what it is

Apiuba1 votes

In my opinion:

  1. Definetly yes
  2. Maybe, but the cd on 120 or more. Combined with the first and you have the ultimate ad counter. To preserve that put during the 5 seconds the damagereflection to 20% + % armourscale and on 40% if not used.
  3. Nope
  4. Wouldn't fix the problem
SnowFall1 votes

Maybe make the passive deal true damage

Tik1151 votes

that would send it flying so far in to broken OP turf that it would need to be worth 20k gold alone to match its power.

I mean think about it, a carry has around 1.8k health at level 18 and deals 1k damage a crit, that means he'll automatically die in 6-7 hits

SnowFall1 votes

that would send it flying so far in to broken OP turf that it would need to be worth 20k gold alone to match its power.

I mean think about it, a carry has around 1.8k health at level 18 and deals 1k damage a crit, that means he'll automatically die in 6-7 hits

It's not that much more of a power increase, currently you can do the same with magic penetration and they don't die right away before you die.

Tik1151 votes

The thing is though is your mindset is "Build thornmail then build magic pen" which sure it may work and may be OP but I'm looking at Thornmail as it is built on a Tank, if your a Magic pen champion with it then you'll be a threat from your abilities (since assuming your using a champion with magic damage spells) but on a Tank that threat is less.

Also I think just slapping true damage on something is a stupid and cheap way of balancing something not to mention unfair, the reason it deal magic damage is to stop it being so absurdly damaging, I mean look at it this way, if you have Thornmail and it dealt true damage next to nothing but casters and mages could fight you and odds are you'll be tanky to the point of not caring.

I mean Thornmail isn't the end all counter to AD AA champions and with good reason, an item that counters an entire critical part of the game will always be unfun and impossible to balance.

Linna Excel1 votes

I think it's okay as a 2nd or 3rd defensive item against an AA heavy AD team. When the other team's only source of magical damage is blitzcrank, you might want to consider getting this.

Not sure what I'd do to change it though. Maybe let champs who AA you bleed max% for a few seconds or get a passive that boosts your own AA damage would be cool. Like on hit you do 1% of your max heal in physical damage. One of those things in addition to the current passive would make it more desirable.

If riot goes the second route, maybe they could delete or rework atma's impaler.

I Eat Thyroids1 votes

For 1 30% of burst AD reflected back at you is probably too much. but if the passive was like 30% aa damage and 15-10% of ad ability damage that could be cool. It is a little lame that there is no real counter itemization besides armor to ad casters while there are plenty of solid counters for both aa users and ap casters.

Sageace1 votes

I wouldn't mind the 1st Option. Make it 30% of damage from Auto-Attacks is returned as Physical OR Magical damage, but only Half or a Third of the damage is returned if struck by a Physical Ability.

And maybe make Thornmail build out of 2 Chainvests instead of 1 and a Cloth Armor.

Tik1152 votes

So basically if hit by AA or on hit effect spells 30% and any physical damage spells that don't reflect 15%?

Also I think adding another item to build it seems a little...iunno excessive? especially given how expensive Chainmail is I mean sure to make a Tiamat you need 4 items but 2 of them cost pretty much some boots.

Critkeeper1 votes

I agree, dismantle thornmail.

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