Azir has too many Identities.

Fadedpf··54 votes·4,740 views

Currently Azir can be identified as a Zoning mage, Lane bully, Hyper carry, Poke mage, Siege mage, Wave clear mage, Tank shredder, Disengage mage, Sustained damage mage, And a Mage with burst. He Benefits way to much from item 3165 and is pretty hard to catch due to his Dash, Ult, Soldier zoning and Long range. I don't know what could be done to make him less powerful but really shouldn't be this strong at so many things. I also think he shouldn't be able to chunk turrets with his W an Azir could go 25/3 or what ever type of score and completely destroy an enemies base. While defending his own without even using his W on the enemy turrets. So the fact that he has it is unneeded power if you ask me. Lets discuss about Azir and his current state because he is just too strong.

87 Comments

Velasan32 votes

This post made me lose all faith in the forums...

Ok so lets get one thing out of the way. I was an Azir main all through s4, and I still play him in this season when there is a favorable match up.

His kit -IS- overloaded, but parts of it such as the turret passive are largely only useful in a niche situation. The attack speed from CDR he absolutely needs because without it he wouldn't do any damage considering Nashors is literally the only item to grant both attack speed and AP for him. The fact that he has some strengths in multiple areas doesn't make him OP because he also doesn't excel at any of those areas right now. He's moderately good at all of them, but not actually doing better than any other champion.

Overall his win rate is sitting at 6th lowest in the game (under urgot). Even between platinum and diamond level he resides around 44-45% winrate. Azir sees play in LCS because those are premade teams who know their roles and work together everyday. So, they can do things like plan to pick Nunu and Azir to combo out. You can never do that in soloQ, and if you could there are plenty of other combo oriented champions (like yas and any knock up for example).

I just can't even believe anyone is still talking about nerfs for him. He's been nothing but nerfed since release. Azir was easily twice as strong on release than he is right now. His range, damage, damage on his w to turrets and so on have all been nerfed more than once.

The biggest issue I see with Azir is a flat out misunderstanding of who he is as a champion and how he works. For example, he doesn't actually shred tanks, it's just that many tanks don't build up as much innate MR and Azir has sustained damage. So, for example, a Maokai will usually build rod of ages first, but is not likely to build any extra MR until later into the game.

His high skill cap and all that has nothing to do with his actual winrates or how much power he should have. Rather he gets a little bit more power from his soldiers because of the level of micromanagement involved. In other words instead of being an ADC and right clicking on your enemy Azir has to Q to said enemy line up his soldiers and start trying to auto them while keeping them in that circle.

Why is this even a thread and how did it get so many upvotes? There is no actual discussion of gameplay on the "gameplay and balance" forums... it's like 90% complaint threads and very little solid facts about why anyone thinks these champions are OP. We have another thread going on today about how OP fizz is... and you know what his troll bubble probably is a little too strong.. but instead of saying why there are 20 comments on how anyone who plays fizz is a #&#^@*.

C'mon people. Where is the league community?

AbiwonKenabi5 votes

{quoted}

Why is this even a thread and how did it get so many upvotes? There is no actual discussion of gameplay on the "gameplay and balance" forums... it's like 90% complaint threads and very little solid facts about why anyone thinks these champions are OP. We have another thread going on today about how OP fizz is... and you know what his troll bubble probably is a little too strong.. but instead of saying why there are 20 comments on how anyone who plays fizz is a #&#^@*.

C'mon people. Where is the league community?

I would upvote for this alone, but you made a lot of good points as well.

Azir's "poke" and "burst" is still oriented around his management of his soldiers, which is also the source of his sustained damage. I just don't see any necessary nerfs to be made, even if we all agreed his poke and burst needed to be nerfed. The vast majority of his damage are already on his soldiers; I suppose Q has decent damage too, but not nearly as much as pretty much any burst-y mage you can think of. Azir has no "rotation" so while Q might hurt, it's not like an Ahri Q or a Leblanc....anything. They have a rotation to follow up on that initial damage. Azir does not have that, he relies on enemies remaining in the range of his soldiers (through various means--ally CC, Q movement, etc) for a long while, to deal damage over time. And that's exactly the definition of sustained damage.

Plus he's got a pretty high skill cap so it's hard for me to say any nerfs are justified; most nerfs would just punish skill players, it's not like he's freelo for people who don't play him.

Messaiga2 votes

I have to concede that Azir is far from freelo. If you take a look on champion.gg, even players who are Plat+ still have a low winrate in ranked games with Azir, until they play about 50 or more. At that point its slightly above average (which would be expected for any champion that somebody plays consistently and repeatedly).

Also, your main statement here gave me a lot to reflect on. I never really thought that over; "Azir does not have a rotation.". I still firmly believe his poke is a bit too strong, but that leaves me a lot to think about in why I enjoy Azir.

DirkTarTar1 votes

I guess you can consider is potential bullying in the beginning of the game as strong poke, however that is easily dealt with by buying an early set of boots.

He has 0 burst without items and it is usually a bad idea to run ignite on him. Which means that you can duel someone, come out on top, but have to capability to force that person to stay in lane other than threatening their tower.

I love Azir. When he was released I was so sad because he was so amazing but was held back by glaringly HUGE bugs. Now that some of the bugs are gone, he has been nerfed suuuuper hard because he can be quite punishing to players for making mistakes.

Now he is barely at 50% his normal strength, has an incredibly low winrate, and is needing advertisement on the homepage as an effort from Riot to say "look! Azir is totally viable!" just like they did with Viktor not too long ago to try to spike his pick rate.

Messaiga1 votes

His low win rate is the result of his rather large play rate. There are too many people that are inexperienced on him bringing it down. He's still very capable and I find myself running ignite most often unless I am in draft pick / ranked and I know I am against a burst heavy matchup (Talon, Zed, LeBlanc, etc).

He really isn't too big of a bully until he gets the components to Morellonomicon, that is when he actually starts to have strong harass potential.

Dedrius5 votes

{quoted}

Overall his win rate is sitting at 6th lowest in the game (under urgot). Even between platinum and diamond level he resides around 44-45% winrate. Azir sees play in LCS because those are premade teams who know their roles and work together everyday. So, they can do things like plan to pick Nunu and Azir to combo out. You can never do that in soloQ, and if you could there are plenty of other combo oriented champions (like yas and any knock up for example).

Well to be fair after 125+ games his winrate is like 59% which is the highest (I think)

kile1471 votes

I would argue that asking for nerfs in this way isn't always a call to weaken a champ, but to trim unneeded/toxic stuff off their kit to make room for power that is more useful/enjoyable. The Veigar rework was kind of an example of this, as they tried to nerf his stun in order to reduce the toxicity of his kit and allow him to be more powerful in other areas (his Q).

Manwalrus31 votes

I think that anyone who's 25/3 will shred turrets.

Jeddy01719 votes

Soraka - 25/3 Even the turrets don't expect the Banana.

DomainSpecific2 votes

I remember when I was first got to lvl 30 in Normals, there was a Diamond IV guy who went AD Soraka, got fed and could chunk turrets faster than, say, Corki.

MLDzXnRRR6 votes

Seeing how Azir bullies other ranged champions = balanced... (Watch yesterdays LPL ) You shouldn\t be way stronger than almost anyone during laning, if you outscale them pretty hard.

Earl Eulrich5 votes

yea, it´s pretty silly that atm he mostly revolves around a weird insec-engage-move and burst though he should be a backline-dps-mage...

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

But if he was a True Back Line Mage, he'd be impossible to kill. Most siege mages have at least something in their kit that promotes getting near an enemy.

MasterVidallis5 votes

Azir's kit is overloaded, and he is really overwhelming right now in the hands of a player that plays him even reasonably well. He needs targeted nerfs that emphasize some sort of strength while creating some clearer weakness.

Messaiga5 votes

As somebody who mains Azir (and has since the end of April) I think I have a good idea as to what Azir's identity should be, what it is right now, and what changes would need to be made to accommodate it.

Azir right now has a lot of things he can do. His Q and W allow him to poke somebody substantially, his E gives him some mobility (which can become very high mobility if used correctly), and his R can completely change the landscape of a fight. His passive is simply an AA steroid (one that is made to work with Azir's itemization) plus the turret active (which is cool af). Right now if played correctly (which fortunately takes a fairly decent amount of time to learn how) he can respond to just about every situation.

Azir intended niche is a mage who specializes in control, sustained magic damage, and safety. I would define safety as strong waveclear, decent (but properly gated) mobility, and a CC that gives you a chance at redemption from a bad situation. The very nature of his kit gives him lane bullying because of his W, but that spell is so integral to Azir that it probably cannot be modified much if at all. Azir should be strong at killing tanks much like an ADC, and through his Ult and placement/movement of his soldiers he can control the pace of a fight and how it plays out if the player is adept at Azir. What Azir shouldn't be doing is taking most of a champion's HP with just a Q -> AA once he has a Deathcap.

The solution to this? Well, Azir has a lot of multipliers throughout his kit. Sustained damage generally scales through these multipliers. For Azir, these multipliers are attack speed, CDR, AP, and magic penetration. Additionally, striking enemy champions with more than one soldier with Q or an auto-attack makes the second strike deal reduced damage (but still acts as a damage multiplier).

A good solution (without being too drastic) could be reducing the AP ratio of his Q further (maybe down to 30%?), lowering the AP Ratio on his W (down to 50%), and then increasing his base attack speed from .625 to something more commonly found on an ADC (.658 is common). If needed, they could also increase the attack speed he receives from his passive. This would encourage item builds, runes, and masteries to include some source of bonus attack speed outside of his passive. You can still easily achieve high levels of AP without a Luden's Echo and the AP item changes on PBE will also be a catalyst for this.

Personally, I never build Luden's on him (unless stupidly fed). I prefer to purchase a Stinger after building Morellonomicon -> T2 Boots -> Deathcap. I then proceed with a normal build until my final item (where I would finish Stinger into Nashor's Tooth). I generally end up with 1.5-ish attack speed, 720 AP or more, and 40% CDR (over-capped by 5% because of masteries). I may not be able to poke as hard (keep in mind, your poke is still EXTREMELY potent), but in teamfights I'm feared by tanks and squishies alike. It also just feels more natural, more how I feel Azir should play (and thus became my preference).

Also, they could remove the tower-damaging active from Azir's W if they wanted. It feels like unnecessary power in my opinion, and doesn't really contribute too much to Azir's theme.

Cats Are Food1 votes

[deleted]

Messaiga2 votes

I can agree that at times Azir's E may feel a bit over the top for the fact that Azir's wall is already impassable (barring Fizz E and Vlad W, as well as the few blinks in this game). He honestly does have a lot of fallback plans if something goes haywire. And also, perhaps that idea for a short delay as to when the soldier(s) can attack after moving his Q could work. I feel as though it could feel a bit wonky at times, but we'd have to see first.

There's honestly a lot of power that could be shaved from Azir and then dispersed throughout his kit in more fitting ways, its just identifying everything. A few things such as his W being able to damage towers for magic damage (when targeting an enemy tower), or his Ult knocking you back if you dash into it after it has been placed (like, if the initial cast is already over and an enemy dash into the wall as it stands still they will be knocked back again).

If any balance changes toward Azir were to be focused on changing his damage, I'd strongly encourage they focus on making him the premier DPS mage (second only to Cassiopeia, who is supposed to be a poison mage. Poor Cass players).

Cats Are Food1 votes

Sorry moved the post after re-thinking the concept tweaks...

I'm not sure about making him the top tier DPS mage, as one would think that Malzahar ultimately holds that title of Bruiser Buster. However I think he should indeed be the premier sustain mage/pusher, he has the kit for it already (Sorry Heimerdinger). My only real issues are his extreme mobility (mobility is good, it can go too far) and... well yeah, not certain if the attack delay would work, it's something that would have to be tinkered with and checked out. Otherwise just a slightly larger ratio reduction, but I feel that would reduce his long range harass.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

or his Ult knocking you back if you dash into it after it has been placed (like, if the initial cast is already over and an enemy dash into the wall as it stands still they will be knocked back again).

This is actually a technical limitation, not a balance one. The point it to make it impassible by all possible means. If they use a standard wall, people will simply dash through it (see Anivia). If they use a stun or a root (see Vieger), the people would have to be allowed through after the CC or become permanently CC'ed. The knock-back prevents them from getting through and removes them from the "CC Zone". They're aren't really any other options to achieve the intended goal with LoL's current technology.

Messaiga1 votes

That would explain this behavior. At least the wall isn't coded as minions, right? item 3070 JarvanIV item 3070

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

It is, I think. But the knock-back overrules anything that would ignore unit collision.

There's a lot more re-textured minions than most people realize. Thresh lantern and wards, for example.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Personally, I prefer bruiser build Azir. Build some tank on him, fly into people's faces, then watch was 2-3 soldiers begin out-DPS'ing the ADC on your poor victim. Of course, I also run a really weird lane control build featuring item 3060 & item 3512 .

With that in mind. If Azir needed power shifting, I would be in full favor of moving it from his poke to to as soldiers' attacks. Or maybe even gutting the Q damage and lowering its CD (further). Make it a stronger positioning tool for managing your soldiers.

Messaiga1 votes

That sounds like a fun build I should try sometime, focusing on mainly attack speed and magic pen I assume.

I've heard quite a few people suggest gutting Q's damage in full favor of enhancing his potential DPS, and I have to say I could get behind it if done right.

Divewing1 votes

Thing is. I used to go RoA into Nashors into Rylais into situationals, because I enjoyed the AP carry feel of the soldiers AA spam to win the fights. Then I tried the Morellos-NLR build and realised it was just better... At least in solo q. I honestly don't like how much burst he has, I like the soldier attacks much more than Q poke spam.

Messaiga1 votes

I used to attempt that too when I first started learning Azir. The problem is that it delays CDR on him and requires time to ramp up. With Morellonomicon or Athene's you get the instant AP, CDR, and mana regen which allows you to pursue pure damage on your next item (often a Rabadon's Deathcap). Otherwise, that build would be perfect for Azir.

theragingnerd4 votes

high skill cap champs deserve power bud

Fadedpf13 votes

Just because a Champion isn't EZ PZ doesn't mean they are immune to nerfs and don't have many things that need tweaking to balance them. Thats like saying Leblanc Riven Vayne are 100% fine because of "muh skill cap"

alvisez4 votes

i really dont understand how people keep saying he is op. have you played him before talking at least? look at lolking he has a 45% winrate. since there are 10 players in an average match evryone should influence the outcome of the match for 10%. this means that he plays bad in the 75% of his matches. also i would like to say (never actually played riven so i wont talk about her) leblank and bayne are op and way too easy to play. leblank has a free flash and clone to save her and vayne is probably the easyest adc ever. try to make a mistake and get out of a difficult situation with twitch or kog maw and then try to make the same with vayne. this is a game where you have to push 4 buttons and for her there are only 3. how can she be hight skill?

Stiv12346 votes

vayne is probably the easyest adc ever.

No. Just no.

alvisez1 votes

ok then. name 3 adc who if focused can escape better then her and has a good early, mid and late game as her. kalista is way op but you can say it's hard to master (you can still win with her without using her passive and being a noob) but vayne is really easy

Trídent5 votes

Vayne isn't good early game. Just because she is strong, doesn't mean she takes no skill. Most mobile champs have a high skillcap, for LC$BIGPLAYZ

3TWarrior2 votes

miss fortune, corki and tristana are a few (not completely serious but MF and corki are two of my favorites)

miss fortune's slow allows her to escape without an escape especially if her passive gets built up and tristana and corki have large dash mechanics

corki is also an anti-tank in this tank meta, something invaluable

Ratbert2 votes

MF's slow doesn't exactly allow her to escape with all the mobility in this game and you really need like 3 levels in it to be useful. She also loses her passive if a minion hits her. Remember that vayne is one of the few adcs with non ultimate hard cc, which is incredibly strong.

theragingnerd1 votes

{quoted}

No. Just no.

vayne is not the easiest that obviously goes too corki but shes not that hard idk why people dispute this

Trídent7 votes

He's just overloaded. Winrate also means nothing. People look at LCS, see Azir #LC$BIGPLAYZ, then hop on the Azir freelo train, to discover he has a very high skill cap and floor. Because of this, the winrate is very low.

Vayne the easiest adc...? ...................................

Leblanc too easy to play? ....

For those two ^ you need to master their mechanics in order to play them to their full potential.

Kanzler3 votes

How is he overloaded? Just because a champion has a lot of combination play with their abilities, doesnt make them overloaded. Nobody wants more champions like annie.

alvisez3 votes

if he the freelo train theory was right then azir wouldnt have an 8% pickrate and vayne a 30% pickrate. what is funny is that the hard adc that evrybody uses (she is the most used champion right now) still has a 50%winrate. leblank actually lately has been nerfed and is in a bad spot but you cant deny that the passive and the flashback are the best weapon for champions you cant use. btw i think that the lcs are not reliable as example. there are too much few matches and the guys who play in lcs are just not on our level. evry champion need to get mastered but simply vayne is not hard as kalista or draven and leblanc isnt hard as azir. (kalista is op so you dont need to master her to win but to master kalista is harder then vayne

Trídent4 votes

Obviously, Vayne isn't as difficult as someone like Draaaaaaaaaaaaaaven. However, she definitely isn't the easiest adc either.

Tryhard Mittens4 votes

You are most likely a better player than me, but I don't see any azir matches in your history. Have you tried playing him and learning his strengths and weaknesses? The best counter for any character is knowing how to play them, and against them.

I'm still a newb, but the characters I have the easiest time winning against are the ones I play regularly. If I get stomped by a character, I add them to my list of characters to try, so I can understand them better and maybe beat them in the future.

Like with Azir, if he spawns two soldiers, chances are you should go in once the first one vanishes. He can summon at most 1 more while you are fighting him, and he will probably have to use it to escape, and it will burn some mana. Or, if he throws his soldiers at you with Q, get between him and the soldiers before he uses E. He will do some damage and get a shield, but if you have him outside of his soldiers aa range and his E is down, you can probably solo him.

You could also try characters that have long range poke. I bet he'd have a heck of a time against a lux, ezreal, velkoz, or kogmaw. I wouldn't want to be a melee champ against an experienced azir tho. I got my butt kicked by yasuo in my 2nd game with azir, but I can see how he would typically destroy in the scenario.

Orangesilk3 votes

Eh, since his last round of nerfs, Azir is on a weak spot, tbh. He has interesting niches in competitive play but that's it, try playing him yourself one day to see his obvious weaknesses, such as his window of weakness right after he uses w+q to poke.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=15257&v=pHije1eKtEc if someone truly mastered the champ it really is far to strong atm - being mechanically challenging doesn´t justify 1v5ing the opponent team in skilled hands.

Kerrigan 4 Prez3 votes

Azir's power is balanced out by his difficulty. And a major part of his strength is from a lack of experience playing against him.

Messaiga5 votes

Thing is, a high skill cap shouldn't justify straight up having more options available than other champions. Take a look at Lee Sin throughout Season 3 and 4. He was constantly played in pro play because they could play him to his maximum potential (or damn near). This champion was among the safest picks because of his mobility, durability, early damage, and fallback plan late-game (his R). We're seeing the same situation with Azir right now (though instead with a weaker early game and very strong late-game, but he still starts to get bonkers once he gets just a Codex and Forbidden Idol).

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

And now Lee Sin has been played significantly less because he can't do everything like people thought he could. The tank meta rolled in and proved that Lee Sin wasn't as good a tank as Sejuani or Gragas. So they use him less in the pro scene.

Messaiga2 votes

This occurred because of the introduction of Cinderhulk. If not for the advent of that (leading to the rise of tank junglers, and subsequent nerfs) he'd still be played just as much. Still, Sejuani was very strong before Cinderhulk.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

You are absolutely right. My main point here is that at the time Lee was huge, people thought he could do everything. Yet along comes a change--not a direct nerf to Lee--and Lee can't keep up as well. Thus, he had a weakness at the time, the right change had to come along and make it significant. They didn't need to nerf Lee into the ground or anything like that.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

They didn't need to nerf Lee into the ground or anything like that.

They just had to dodge the issue for 4 seasons while he was the defining factor of what was and wasn't viable in the jungle. (>_>)

Only A Soldier3 votes

NO. HE NEEDS MOR.

Lucifer2 votes

Azir is incredibly powerful. There's a reason he's a top pick in competitive play all the time now. The issue is that he has a high skill cap, so people just keep defending him, despite how insanely overloaded he currently is. He suffers from a similar problem Orianna had a few seasons ago, where she was clearly overloaded, but it took a very long time for her to get tapped, simply because of everyone defending her for her high skill cap.

Mazianos2 votes

I thought this would be discussing the fact that he is a bird, a god, a seemingly traitor amongst other things

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