Would it be a bad idea giving ap champs a 800g grevious wounds ?

Yi Bencheikh·Sep 7, 2016·29 votes·1,478 views

Just asking

64 Comments

EndlessSorcererSep 7, 201617 votes

Quite frankly, I think having Grievous Wounds on items is a bad decision.

I'd be much happier if they removed Grievous Wounds and rebalanced healing effects to account for it not existing.

WheatloafSep 7, 20162 votes

Yes pls; I think everyone could benefit from healing effects not assuming they'll be permanently reduced by 40% after 20-25 minutes.

dunkeroniSep 8, 20161 votes

That would completely remove all heal/sustain based champions from the game. Unless you intend to severely buff their late game heals, which would lead to the exact same problem except that grievous wounds would be MORE of a requirement.

WheatloafSep 8, 20162 votes

I may have worded myself a bit poorly. I meant that, currently, heals are often more powerful than they need to be, because they're balanced under the assumption Grievous Wounds are going to be bought against them, and that it would be nice if things didn't have to be like that.

dunkeroniSep 8, 20161 votes

By the very same argument, Health is current too more powerful than it needs to be because it's balanced under the assumption that the enemy team will deal damage.

WheatloafSep 8, 20162 votes

That would only be a similar argument if there was an item that reduced an enemy's health. To begin with, heals are (more or less) giving you ally more health (just not more MAX health. Sorry, Lulu). Thus, it's also balanced around the fact that someone is going to be trying to burn through that extra health with damage. Unlike HP items/HP-increasing effects, however, healing is additionally balanced around the fact that 2 items and a summoner spell can reduce its effectiveness by 40%. It's so cheap and easy to apply that effect, in fact, that any champion that relies on significant healing can assume they'll have to deal with it. So, either they're balanced around the case where their enemies aren't (for whatever reason) hard countering them, in which case they'll do nothing when Grievous Wounds are bought, or balanced around when GW are bought, making them broken as balls when nobody has GW.

Sahn UzalSep 7, 201612 votes

Yes, it would be a bad idea. Giving such an item to AD champions was a bad idea to begin with.

TwinkieProSep 8, 20162 votes

It was given to ADC to allow them to fight both mundo and Vlad. With their substantial amount of healing, they would heal more than they would take at times.

LankPantsSep 8, 20161 votes

With their substantial amount of healing, they would heal more than they would take at times.

Wouldn't it be better to fix the root issue of self heals generally being set to high rather than to give the most powerful class the most 'fuck you' item in the game?

dunkeroniSep 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

...to give the most powerful class the most 'fuck you' item in the game?

I think you're forgetting about item 3156 Zed Yasuo Talon

Pika FoxSep 8, 20161 votes

No.

The idea is that its an item that costs gold, so it takes an item spot and needs to be built. You can still shut down the champ so they dont get it as fast, meaning you have a longer opportunity to impose your full sustain, and the item also reduces general damage output (lord dominiks vs mortal reminder, lord dominiks does more damage, meaning the ADC is losing out on that to shut out your sustain)

This also gives you the option to impose your strength if the ADC isnt there to fight against you, or otherwise cant hit you.

TwinkieProSep 9, 20161 votes

Then you would be stuck with the issue where Sustain champs would become useless. They all have a history of difficulty to balance.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 7, 201611 votes

typically ap are burst champs and burst will beat sustain. so i dont understand why you need a grevious wounds for 800 gold for ap champs

TwinkieProSep 8, 20162 votes

This plus AP seige champs would be absolutely oppressive.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 8, 20161 votes

exactly think of cheap easy grievous wounds with item 3116 good luck

doiminat0r3600Sep 8, 20161 votes

I think OP means that for DoT mages, it would be helpful. Some mages, such as AurelionSol and Anivia are more focused on using abilities to deal more damage. If your damage can be outhealed by a healer, then GW would help that. Otherwise, there is no use for it.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 8, 20161 votes

i understand that , but we are talking balance here if there was an ap item that gave GW for 800 gold then every one would get it as ap mage. there is an item that does give GW and alot of other stats item 3165 . and when ap builds can have 400-600 ap depending on runes/builds and base mr is 30 there isnt a lack of burst from AP mages. and a fed Anivia can 1 shot people.

but as far as playing vs healers like say DrMundo as an ap champ you can go item 3165 item 3151 item 3135 item 3089 item 3116 item 3020 with summoner 14 im sure you can still do damage with 648ap 30 flat magic pen and 35% magic pen plus the dot damage from and the true damage of

doiminat0r3600Sep 8, 20161 votes

You can choose to do what you said with the anti-mundo build. But if you either cant build that kind of build or you need to build something else, like more damage, then that build wouldnt be the best. The fact that GW is in that build is fine, but the point is that a GW item for AP champs is only good for chunking them down and preventing healing from that initial damage immediantly. A mundo can easily get the HP back with his ult from a E combo in about 5 seconds if GW is applied, giving you time to chunk him down further and further until he dies. If he has his ult up, your Anivia ult will do virtually nothing to him, as he would heal more than he would take.

And any fed champion can basically one shot people unless there is something in their kit keeping them from doing it.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 8, 20161 votes

how do expect to get more then 648 ap with out runes or masteries in a build? explain

doiminat0r3600Sep 8, 20161 votes

Why does it matter if you get more than 648 AP? AP tends to fall off later game because there are less pen items compared to AD.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 8, 20161 votes

But if you either cant build that kind of build or you need to build something else, like more damage, then that build wouldnt be the best.

is what you said, "or build more damage" so i asked how do u plan to build more damage then 648 ap?

doiminat0r3600Sep 9, 20161 votes

If you don't get pen, you can get more than 648 AP.

item 3165 item 3285 item 3089 item 3027 item 3116 (100 + 100 + 120 + 100 + 100) x 1.3 = 676.

This is 676 AP (according to my calculations) with items only.

This isnt even counting for champions like Veigar

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 9, 20161 votes

but u dont get the %hp damage that item 3151 and how are you getting x1.3?

doiminat0r3600Sep 9, 20161 votes

Again, I said, "if you dont get pen" and I also got the extra 30% damage from deathcap's passive.

Doesnt matter if you get the %HP damage if they can block it with MR. If they have 3000 HP and 100 MR, you are effectively doing about 50 damage per second. This is good for DoT mages but terrible for burst mages. Especially considering its only doing %Current HP damage. It dwindles down the more damage they take. It can't execute people.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 9, 20161 votes

death cap is 35% btw, item 3151 is more then the passive dot its also the flat 15 magic pen. so with 15 from landry's and 15 from item 3020 you have a flat 30 magic pen if they have 100 mr that would reduce it to 70 before 35% magic penetration which would then bring down the mr to 45mr. and that dont include the magic pen from runes +8 or the magic pen from masteries +7%

doiminat0r3600Sep 10, 20161 votes

Yes but that doesnt really matter when you're going against a tank with 300 MR. 30 MR difference is the difference between 75% and 77% MR. Pointless.

The %MR is what is useful, but since there is only one item with %MR but many items with %Armor Pen, this means mages would be significantly underpowered when facing tanks.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yes but that doesnt really matter when you're going against a tank with 300 MR. 30 MR difference is the difference between 75% and 77% MR. Pointless.

The %MR is what is useful, but since there is only one item with %MR but many items with %Armor Pen, this means mages would be significantly underpowered when facing tanks.

hmm i see 300 armor alot never 300 mr thats gotta be pretty hard to get 300 mr

doiminat0r3600Sep 11, 20161 votes

Thats because armor is naturally scaling on all champions. And there are more armor items that give more armor than MR. Highest MR is 70 (Banshees vail) and second highest is 55 (Spirit Visiage) vs highest armor being 100 (Thorn Mail) and second highest being 90 (Frozen Heart).

oSEXYPLATYPUSoSep 11, 20161 votes

Yes but that doesnt really matter when you're going against a tank with 300 MR

that is what you stated in your previous statement. that is when i said never see 300 mr on a tank.

AstôlfoSep 7, 20168 votes

It'd be better to remove Executioner's instead or rework it severely. It's a horribly designed item.

It Hertz When IPSep 7, 20161 votes

Used to be way worse. At least most juggs/bruisers can use AD, before it used to be crit chance.

Alesya369Sep 7, 20161 votes

Before it cost 1350 and had no further upgrades too.

It Hertz When IPSep 7, 20161 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/Ecn8EldZOQGYM/giphy.gif?noredirect

IPromiseTomorrowSep 7, 20162 votes

It would be kinda bad for sustain champs against any ap laner. But then again you could make a (800g ap) grievous wounds item build into something bad.

Like the it wouldn't be morellonomicon instead it'll be build up into something with less ap and no cdr.

That could make it work.

dominusxSep 7, 20161 votes

just give morello a perma grevious wounds not just when they are 40% or w/e it is you can remove some ap and cdr from it to compensate or the mana restore passive

WarmanreaperSep 7, 20161 votes

Wouldn't work. Removing that restriction would make it so ANY AP range ability could kite / burst any tank / lifestealer without the champ being able to catch up or sustain enough to get to the mage... I say make the $ higher.. make it like 70% or under.. but anything above that SHOULD BE SAFE.. Some champs are based of sustain this would screw them over so badly.

Alesya369Sep 7, 20162 votes

Execall currently allows for abuses like Twitch on R applying it to whole enemy team each AA, Jhin applying it over 3000 range with ult, Ashe or Cait's AoE skills can quicky apply it to multiple enemies at once, oh... and it has no cooldown and no target HP restriction...

Pika FoxSep 8, 20161 votes

Sustain counters DPS, and ADCs are less safe than mages.

Burst counters sustain, so giving it to AP champs is an issue.

The reason twitch et all are fine with having and using it is because theyre already at a disadvantage against that archetype of champion.

xBushxSep 7, 20161 votes

Just numbers balance the healing. Reduced healing sounds like a retarded effect. if healers want to clutch heal let them. this separated the men from the boys in WOW.

WoonStruckSep 8, 20162 votes

Rogues were required in WoW PvP for their Grievous Wounds effects. Priests were OP otherwise.

SirSmokeysAlotSep 8, 20161 votes

Someone forgot about arms warriors.

SpoofghoulSep 8, 20161 votes

it be better on tanks

maybe a health item which gives grievous wounds for 1 second to all who attack you with spells or abilities

at least gives ppl a reason not to attack tanks

because armor and health alone arent really any incentive not to attack them since they melt anyway

statelesskillerSep 8, 20161 votes

it would have to be a otherwise stat inefficient item. like im talking about downright garbage. grievous wounds is a powerful stat and should come with a high cost

VeltoxSep 8, 20161 votes

Yes the counter to burst is healing,shields and invulnerability don't take out one for no reason.

RevaliSep 8, 20161 votes

i think if aps really needed grievous why not buff Morello's %hp in which it activates to about 40%.

itd help them deal with vlad mid, it'd also help against a lot of sustained midlaners.

as its 35% currently, and It feels way to niche there unless your an exceptionally high burst mage like veigar who can make easy use of that grievous passive.

other than that you really just by it for the stats, regardless of grievous wounds or not is helpful. and that just makes it feel slapped on there as the items 'specialty'

manbearswineSep 8, 20161 votes

What would it upgrade to?

Thing about morrelonomicon is that it's an item based on early game dominance, it also has a weaker gw so it wouldn't mess with that identity, so we will probably need a new item for this.

Pika FoxSep 8, 20161 votes

Probably. Burst counters sustain, and AP generally implies burst. You already counter them, so allowing you to remove any bit of outplay potential they might have on you by staying safe and sustaining back up in lane wouldnt do well.