What is J4 even good at?

needHymn··1 votes·1,568 views

So I played 2 days worth of J4 and I've concluded that he's basically crap. But don't just down vote me... change my mind.

  1. He doesn't scale well no matter what build I try. Yes, he can snowball, but that's NOT the same thing as scaling. A scaling champ can AFK farm and win the game, because they scale. J4 can't afk farm successfully no matter what his item build is, because he just doesn't scale well enough. I've played hard scaling junglers.

  2. His ganks seem meh. It's very easy for him to miss his Q+E combo, and if he does, they basically just walk away and he wasted his time attempting the gank. There are champs that can gank much more reliably than that, so I feel like if you plan to gank, why would you pick him for that?

  3. His counter jungling is kind of meh. That's because he needs tiamat to farm decently. But there's plenty of junglers who can farm fast without any items. So they easily out farm him. So how's he supposed to counter jungle when he can't even keep up in farm with many junglers? Sure he can dash over a wall to escape, but that's a pretty weak counter jungle if the best you can do is run. He's a decent dueler, if he is full HP, but he has no innate life steal so he gets unhealthy on things like dragons and even just camps, where other junglers could be more healthy. And if he's lower on HP than the other jungler, he definitely can lose duels or simply have to run, which wastes his time. All of that just doesn't make him the best counter jungler.

  4. His split pushing is kind of meh. I can't see that as a reason to pick him.

  5. His teamfighting consists basically of inting himself and hoping his team can clean up afterwards. That's because he has no escape, if he uses his whole kit to initiate, which is his best engage. So he basically just dies, almost guaranteed, every teamfight. Unless of course his team is super far ahead and the enemy team has no damage. I mean, his engage is great but with no escape, he just dies. Plenty of junglers who can contribute just as much to a teamfight, but without the dying part.

So if he can't scale, and his ganks suck, and his counter jungling sucks, and his teamfighting sucks, I just can't put my finger down on any particular reason to pick J4. Maybe he count be a niche pick because of his armor shred, perhaps against a high armor target, but even then I think there's other junglers who also have armor shred who would be safer in that case.

I feel like J4 is one of those champs who only wins if your team was going to win anyway. Like, the very fact that he has to dive with no escape, kind of means that if your team isn't ahead, then he just feeds. Only reason J4 would win the game is if his allies are decent or the enemy is bad and the game was already predestined to be a win. He doesn't seem like a champ who would score a high grade on a losing game.

23 Comments

GilxeN4 votes

Jarvan has very strong engage abilities, pro players usually going tank.

Jarvan can be built literally full AD and clap squishies in one combo.

I am usually going bruiser early game then late game tanky.

Jarvan's very early levels are somehow weak but once you pass those levels safely you can do more at lvl 6.

2Charmnot2Charm2 votes

A scaling champ can AFK farm and win the game, because they scale.

Then the rest of your team gets destroyed by the heavy ganking enemy jungler. Doesn't matter that you scale if you lose the game before that scaling even matters. Something that j4 is really good at.

It's like saying Kindred is a afk farmer when in reality (plat+ elos) she is a beast at ganking solo laners with the damage she brings (while also being a ranged champ) and the strong af slow on her E. And as a bonus Kindred actually scales, just because you scale doesn't mean you afk farm, you still need to be putting pressure on the map and not leaving your team to play a 4v5.

needHymn1 votes

Some junglers can scale hard enough that the 4v5 is worth it. But that's not the topic of this thread.

2Charmnot2Charm1 votes

[{quoted}](name=POG IRL,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1ABqnVT,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-08-20T13:21:32.939+0000)

Some junglers can scale hard enough that the 4v5 is worth it. But that's not the topic of this thread.

No because at that point your laners are so far behind that the enemy team don't even need to burn their important cooldowns for them. They can just save their important cooldowns to deal with you everytime you try to do anything. If you get away with this it means 1. The enemy team has no CC and 2. They're bad.

And like I already said previously J4 is a good early ganking champ to snowball your laners so this is still on topic with point 1.

His ganks seem meh. It's very easy for him to miss his Q+E combo

  1. Get red buff.

  2. Walk up to enemy top-mid laner.

  3. Auto that laner with red buff.

  4. Use E-Q combo after they flash.

Congrats you can't screw up your E-Q now. You do not need to be starting every gank with your E-Q combo. Even without red buff if you're in position where you can just walk behind that laner it's pointless to use E-Q and better to save E-Q for when they burn their flash/mobility. You can also just wait for your laners to hit their CC first if they have a CC that can be hit easier than your E-Q.

His split pushing is kind of meh.

Imagine split pushing when you're the one with Smite. Thanks for the free Baron.

His teamfighting consists basically of inting himself and hoping his team can clean up afterwards.

This is why people build him as a offtank and abuse his early ganking power to get his laners ahead. Although like someone else said J4 can just E-Q out if he starts with just R.

Crystalysk2 votes

You don't int in teamfights, most of the times you want to engage with R and EQ out of it. Also you get a stopwatch/ga/steraks/gargoyle and you can be more usefull.

Ad Jarvan can work sometimes but imho cinderhulk jarvan is far superior

Sound Chimera2 votes

J4 is strong and i think was since forever a good jungler u might wanna learn the game before u start calling champs crap. [zombie-brand-clap]

Who Fed Ru1 votes

one shotting and pissing off the enemy mid until he ragequits

needHymn1 votes

riiight... but uh... Evelynn can do the same thing, but she has an escape. So if your goal is to build J4 like an assassin, why wouldn't you pick Evelynn or something.

0 Hogapu1 votes

because j4 has one of the strongest level 2 gank, and his engage/escape isn't tied to an ultimate

Who Fed Ru1 votes

[{quoted}](name=POG IRL,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A1ABqnVT,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-08-20T13:24:18.994+0000)

riiight... but uh... Evelynn can do the same thing, but she has an escape. So if your goal is to build J4 like an assassin, why wouldn't you pick Evelynn or something.

J4 has an epic pre6 already, he can already start camping lanes from level2 onwards and snowball early. If he already has one, or even a few kills once he hits 6 he can OS basically everything from that point until he falls off.

WalkingInACircle1 votes

To land your eq, get behind your target and auto attack them. Force your opponent to commit to a course of action. Then use your w first for the slow, then eq.

Yeah, jarvan's teamfight initiation is suicidal and also usually only works well if you can land eq. He's better off being a counter engager because of AoE knockup.

SEKAI1 votes
  1. His early game dueling power is pretty good. He can outduel a good portion of the jg roster in early game thanks to his passive, Q, and E giving him a respectable damage output very early on.
  2. His lvl2 gank is extremely good since EQ.
  3. He has pretty good clear speed since his E gives him attack speed and his Q is AoE burst damage that also debuffs everything it touched with arm pen.
  4. When built as full assassin, his 1shot power is to be respected. When built as general bruiser, he's overall well-rounded.
  5. His R forces fights. And a good J4 can force uneven fights in ways he sees fit. Or as previously mentioned, you could just nuke the enemy with R if you built assassin style.
  6. His EQ makes him pretty mobile. A good perk for any champ, especially junglers which J4 is typically used as. J4's mobility while good, also isn't too oppressive so it's pretty good.
  7. His W is often ignored, but it's very solid if J4 is built bruiser since it gives him both AoE CC and a shield that scales with 2 different factors (his % max HP and number of enemies hit).

J4 is just an overall well rounded champion that isn't too oppressive unlike some of the more egregious examples from the roster.

J4 is just an overall good champion.

preternatural1 votes

j4 provides

  1. terrain
  2. armor shred on his kit
  3. versatile build paths
  4. versatile team roles

he's a swiss army knife, problem is that you have to be good with his E-Q which had it's width nerfed twice a few times back because the j4 mains were getting too good at it. so now you gotta learn it the hard way.

Ćold As Ice1 votes

Diving

PhearBunny1 votes

Jarvan is F tier, dont let people tell you hes good. He isnt.

Ćold As Ice1 votes

Jarvan is flat out just superior new pantheon so what does that say

Galiö1 votes

He is good at everything.

He can tank, he can burst, he can flag and drag, he can support

:p

PhearBunny1 votes

{quoted}

He is good at everything.

He can tank, he can burst, he can flag and drag, he can support

:p

yeah...hes a jack of a few trades. But i think the point is, he's bad at all of those trades. Yep he can be a shitty tank that does no damage and has a really unreliable CC on too long of a CD with big mana costs and few mana items to buid. Yep he can be a shitty assassin with a borderline unlandable rotation. Yep he can be a shitty fighter. Yep he can be a shitty support.

the point is, he is never a good pick.

Galiö1 votes

I mean his SoloQ winrate is fine and he is competativly picked a decent amount, even currently, after being nerfed a lot.

If that doesnt make him a good champion idk what does.

give head pats1 votes

J4 is a teamfighting champion late game. His Q lowers anyone hit's armor for 3 seconds. his E gives everyone on his team 30% attack speed, and his W shield is bigger the more enemies are nearby. Not all champs are meant to 1v9 a teamfight, they're meant to setup their teammates to do it.

Dukues1 votes

JarvanIV really strong right now not sure what you talking about. It is pretty team reliant late game no doubt, but you can always just build him full lethality and one combo carries. Hell... can almost do that as a tank. I think the more bruiser build probably better for solo queue. Pro or like clash or just even like 5v5 flex with friends or 5v5 norms or whatever I could see going tank jarv but I find it hard to play in solo queue. It's nice to have damage to just blow someone up then try to peel.

Idk.... he is a very good champ but you kinda have to know what you going for early. If you going to be more of a front line and try to cc & peel for a team or if you just going to dive enemy back lane and try to kill them. But jarv has a lot of early game pressure and can really get your team ahead. But I do think 1v9 carry as him is a little harder these days... but he not exactly a 1v9 champ to begin with.

Dukues1 votes

"his ganks seem meh".... WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT lol..... his ganks are so fucking strong. You can literally level 2 gank if you want... and not all junglers can do that. He has a KNOCK UP & SLOW. That's insane cc reliability.

Honestly...... since you literally just started playing JarvanIV you probably trying to what E + Q from max distance for stun? Yes.... that is pretty easy to dodge and not as reliable. But guess what? There's hope! Instead of just instantly E + Q from max distance, close the gap first. If the enemy doesn't see you coming because you know there are no wards or put down a pink or whatever then get as close to you can to them. Does you ally have cc? If they do first use your W next to enemy to slow them and maybe your teammate in range to cc them first. Then you get free E + Q combo on them for another knockup and it should be enough burst & cc between you and your teammate to kill. And if not you can still get close enough to W first and then E + Q most of the time. And even if not... you can get closer than max distance which makes it easier to land E & Q.

My favorite thing to do as J4 is gank say top level like 3-4 or bot or w/e easiest top lane. You walk up and ping over & over to your ally you coming. Then you walk up and get as close as possible, try to slow with your W. If you play it right or wrong kinda depends on enemy but what you want to do is get them to use their Flash. If they use it super early when they see you coming then they safe but you just got flash for free. If they wait and use it when you slow their fucked. Why? Because 1.. you just slowed them so their flash away won't get them as far and guess what? Even after their flash they still in range for E + Q combo. Booooom you just got a flash and a kill because you waited, made them use flash and still got your stun on them. Now their lane is literally fucked unless your teammate fucks up completely or enemy jungler champs them.

GG easy continue to gank for more kills or gank other lanes.

Tailypo1 votes

The correct way to phrase this thread would be, "what is J4 NOT good at?" I'm not gonna break it down, but he can do just about anything if you build him right.

  1. It sounds like you're trying to say that J4 doesn't scale as well as some junglers. I mean you aren't wrong, but it's hardly relevant. J4 is a very scary dude for laners as early as lvl 3. You don't need to scale hard when you bring the kind of pressure he does right off the bat. Furthermore, there aren't a lot of junglers that afk farm and then go on to carry the game. I mean maybe Jax? Maybe Karthus? But no decent jungler wants to afk farm the jungle with any champ. It's simply not the optimal way to play the role.

  2. His combo is not easy to miss. You need more practice. Even if YOU miss, he's one of the few champs that can easily complete a gank with just his ult/slow after missing half his kit.

  3. I don't recall have any trouble clearing with J4. You're vastly understating the significance of being able to exit the enemy's jungle unpunished.

  4. His ability to split push is 110% irrelevant. He is a team fighter.

  5. It is true that you will probably die in a lot of team fights, but you are able to engage on your terms with an absolute advantage over the enemy team. J4 is able to destroy / lock down critical members of the enemy team while providing a noteworthy attack speed bonus to his own teammates. If you can't see how strong J4 is at engaging team fights, I'm afraid I won't be able to make you understand. It's pretty obvious that this is something j4 is VERY good at.

To summarize, his scaling, ganking, counter jungling (clearing), and team fighting do not suck (His ganks and contribution to team team fights are both well above average). Truthfully I do not know how you could think that J4 sucks at these things unless you are very bad at playing him or at jungling in general. Throughout the entire game, from his solid early ganks and later into game swinging teamfight engages, he creates many opportunities for your team to get ahead and stay ahead or even comeback if need be. I would encourage you to continue practicing with J4, and I think that you will find your opinion subject to change.

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