Teemo shrooms should counter Pyke, not the other way around.

needHymn··97 votes·17,494 views

tl:dr is that Pyke should not be allowed to heal for his Grey Health, if he has taken any damage (excluding damage from items and neutral monster buffs) from an enemy champion within the last second.

I'd been picking Teemo as a counter to stealthy champs like Evelynn, Rengar, Twitch, etc. Shrooms put sight, but not "true" sight, on their victims. But I'm watching my replays and seeing Pyke players literally rushing ahead of their allies to "clear the Shrooms". He's able to both take damage from the Shrooms, and also gain Grey Health, AND also heal for all that Grey Health, all simultaneously. So basically he just runs around intentionally stepping on my Shrooms, because they don't reveal him, and he's continually healing for most of the Shroom damage, all at the same time.

That's because Pyke "rapidly heals for his Grey Health" while the enemy is unable to see him. And since the Shrooms only put regular sight on him, and not true sight, he remains camouflaged even while stepping on the Shrooms. So each time he takes a tick of Shroom damage, he almost immediately heals for most (81% at level 18) of that damage, and that's not counting any further reductions he gains from his magic resistance. So he basically takes zero damage from the Shrooms.

I think that if Pyke has taken any damage (excluding damage from items and neutral monster buffs) from an enemy champion within the last second, his ability to heal should be temporarily disabled, EVEN if the enemy team has no sight of him. This would NOT disable his ability to gain Grey Health... only his healing off that Grey Health would be temporarily disabled. So if he steps on a Shroom during his W, he would likely have to wait till his next W comes off cooldown, before he could finish healing for all his Grey health.

Periodic tick damage from items like Liandy's Torment or Corruption Potion, or neutral monster buffs, would not disable Pyke's heal. But summoner spells like Ignite, and ability damage like teemo's Shrooms or blasts from Xerath's ults, would definitely disable Pyke's healing for 1 second. This would mean that if you can keep blasting the Pyke with damage, he could die even during his W, since his healing will be disabled as long as you keep damaging him every second.

If Riot really wants to have a hard counter to Teemo shrooms, I'm all for that. I just don't think Pyke should be it. As a Teemo player, I'd be totally okay with something like Nami's ult being able to clear all the shrooms it touches. That would make a lot more sense. But I feel like stealthy champions like Pyke should be countered by Teemo shrooms, and not the other way around.

48 Comments

Metal Janna18 votes

Hey cool the boards ate my post again.

Fix this bug already Riot. It's been reported repeatedly ever since Pyke's release. If the passive is only supposed to work when unseen, then abilities and summoner spells that give sight or true sight should block it.

3xChampionLance1 votes

It's working as intended pyke is the counter to teemo's shrooms

xelaker7 votes

along with everything else in this game

JuiceBoxP3 votes

Ignite doesn't give sight if the target is stealthed.

JuiceBoxP11 votes

The only thing wrong with pyke is the massive amounts of gold he gets from his ultimate.

Everything else anyone would say on the boards about pyke will be mindlessly upvoted because it's pyke.

sentences which look like this : "why X gets to do Y" are inherently stupid because the clear answer is that his designers wanted him to have that.

BackdoorPrincess22 votes

{quoted}

The only thing wrong with pyke is the massive amounts of gold he gets from his ultimate.

Everything else anyone would say on the boards about pyke will be mindlessly upvoted because it's pyke.

sentences which look like this : "why X gets to do Y" are inherently stupid because the clear answer is that his designers wanted him to have that.

Nah the assassin shouldn't have godlike sustain, idc about not being able to build health, the tradeoff is he already gets bonus damage from it. All in supports main weakness is poking them down, enchanters/healers/pokers is going all-in. Yet, if you go all in on him, he dashes away and heals whatever it was, just to hook you again, all the while building lethality to ignore armor so he does even more damage to the squishies. Stop rewarding bad players with this sustain that he gets, and give him actual costs to fucking up

youngdrago7 votes

Except he’s a support and if you continue to ignore that you’ll always wonder why he’s kit is built like this. The whole reason he has his passive is not to give sustain but to prevent him from building Tank. The heal is just something to balance his lack of health. Imagine pyke going full tank, it would be complete cancer. Pyke rn is pretty good but could use some slight nerfs to the extra cut.

XJ999999999999992 votes

{quoted}

Except he’s a support and if you continue to ignore that you’ll always wonder why he’s kit is built like this. The whole reason he has his passive is not to give sustain but to prevent him from building Tank. The heal is just something to balance his lack of health. Imagine pyke going full tank, it would be complete cancer. Pyke rn is pretty good but could use some slight nerfs to the extra cut.

hp doesn't matter unless it hits 1. if he has 1500 hp and takes 1499 damage, it doesn't matter because he didn't die. he gets it back. this is why no one is building hp for the most part unless its part of a damage item. better off having damage to just heal.

ThatGuyFTP1 votes

{quoted}

hp doesn't matter unless it hits 1. if he has 1500 hp and takes 1499 damage, it doesn't matter because he didn't die. he gets it back. this is why no one is building hp for the most part unless its part of a damage item. better off having damage to just heal.

No... Nobody builds health on Pyke because he doesn't get health from items...

Gift of the Drowned Ones INNATE: Pyke's maximum health cannot increase except through growth (per level), instead he gains 1 bonus attack damage per 14 bonus health Pyke also stores 30% − 81% (based on level) of the damage he takes from enemy champions as Grey Health on his health bar, up to 80 (+ 800% bonus AD), with an upper cap of 60% of his maximum health. When Pyke is unseen by enemies, he rapidly consumes his Grey Health to Heal power heal for the same amount.

Hotarµ5 votes

All in supports main weakness is poking them down,

So poke his ADC, not him.

Pyke can't do anything for his carry aside from deal damage and (inconsistently) peel. When you stop trying to all-in Pyke and correctly focus his ADC, the lane becomes 10x easier to understand and win.

Stop rewarding bad players with this sustain that he gets, and give him actual costs to fucking up

I'm going to guess you've never played Pyke (or at least not for more than a few games) because he dies within a second when locked down.

A good Morgana Q, Annie rotation, Blitzcrank Q, or other hard CC ability gives you enough time to nuke Pyke at any point in the game. He rarely builds any armor or MR and usually only does it as a 4th item or later.

Personally I think the double-ult gold is too much ATM but his base kit has plenty of room for error and is easily outplayed by most Enchanters.

JuiceBoxP1 votes

{quoted}

, idc about not being able to build health,

You understand that is actually a massive disadvantage yeah? At a stage where bruisers have 3k health, pyke has 1.5k He is extremely squishy.

the tradeoff is he already gets bonus damage from it.

The ratios are really bad. Investing in itema that give health is poor gold utilization for pyke.

I do agree that pyke is overbearing right now, but not because of the reasons you stated. Rather because of his ult.

Troll for Trump25 votes

His ridiculous sustain is what broke him in solo lanes. It's his crutch to keep him viable as support but it's obnoxious as hell

DeusVult10 votes

IMO, his healing is the most OP part of his kit. Here is a champ that cannot actually gain any bonus health, and you generally have an idea of when you can ignite someone or hit a DoT and it will kill a champ, but with Pyke the ignite/DoT doesnt do anything.

In the latest patch they buffed Fizz/Leona vs DoT damage, but Pyke is still the number 1 counter vs it because he actually doesnt take DoT damage

JuiceBoxP1 votes

Okay, so you already know ignite can't kill him.... then adapt? take a different summoner spell? save it for the adc instead? There's a lot of ways you can play differently.

i am a pyke main, trust me when i say his ult gold is what makes him completely broken right now and i've even created a post about it where it got like 130 upvotes. I just don't agree that his kit is that hard to deal with, but as of right now, he gets too much gold and gets too far ahead for basically a single shutdown with his ult.

ElnyrJhodo4 votes

Yeah the healing is the only thing making the champion broken.

Its pretty blatantly obvious.

Ayzev1 votes

{quoted}

"why X gets to do Y" is stupid because the clear answer is that the designers wanted that.

That answer tells us absolutely nothing. It just leads us to ask essentially the same question again - why did the designers want X to do Y?

JuiceBoxP1 votes

Why does yasuo get double crit chance? We could argue about the reason for hours on end. That doesn't mean we know what it is for sure because it is not written anywhere by the official champion designer. What we do know for sure is that his designer wanted him to have that.

This answer might not lead us anywhere, but it's still an answer, and one you can't argue with.

You can however argue that it is too strong or too good or over powered for him to have that mechanic work the way it works. That is a valid arguement. But for why it's there, there is no arguement.

Hi im 1211 votes

teemo buffs? count me the fuck out.

PzyXo5 votes

[deleted]

General Esdeath 9 votes

{quoted}

Sounds fair. Teemo is more than cancer. I love seeing Teemo players face when we survive their R ^^

Sounds like someone doesn't know how to beat Teemo

PzyXo1 votes

[deleted]

C9 Scott5 votes

Get forum banned :)

General Esdeath 1 votes

Not on the first date, big boy

ChaosReyn1 votes

Didn't stop you from trying with Tatsumi... >.>

General Esdeath 1 votes

That's different >_>

Snowbrand4 votes

Yea, but why can't one stealth champion counter teemo? sounds fair to me if he counters every other stealth champ? You could as well say why should teemo counter stealth at all? The answer will always be arbitrary.

5050BS3 votes

Im not sure but I think Ignite also just give normal sight. If you ignite Pyke when he is low it should kill him.

funkdubious23 votes

Teemo has to be deleted or nerfed from thje game

The additional poison damage is way out of line with top laner's damage. I'm fine with "Blind" but the additional poison dart ends up taking an additional damage and especially late game, Teemo is capable of killing somebody after his death even with MR.

Teemo's armor is way out of line for being a ranged champion. Teemo's regularly are in melee range tanking damage, because his armor is too overbuffed.

Shroom duration is too much. Shroom damage is too much and should be removed. You maybe can give a choice... damage with no vision or no damage (slow) and vision. Shroom damage should not be AP scaled, it should be a flat 200 HP OR enable stealth with minimal HP dmg for vision or a non stealthed that you put in a bush that gives damage and no vision.

Poison damage from twitch and teemo is out of line in this game.

Shieda Kayn1 votes

{quoted}

Teemo has to be deleted or nerfed from thje game

The additional poison damage is way out of line with top laner's damage. I'm fine with "Blind" but the additional poison dart ends up taking an additional damage and especially late game, Teemo is capable of killing somebody after his death even with MR.

Teemo's armor is way out of line for being a ranged champion. Teemo's regularly are in melee range tanking damage, because his armor is too overbuffed.

Shroom duration is too much. Shroom damage is too much and should be removed. You maybe can give a choice... damage with no vision or no damage (slow) and vision. Shroom damage should not be AP scaled, it should be a flat 200 HP OR enable stealth with minimal HP dmg for vision or a non stealthed that you put in a bush that gives damage and no vision.

Poison damage from twitch and teemo is out of line in this game.

If a Teemo is THAT big of a problem, item 3194

Romans VI XXIII2 votes

You want RIOT to code something that simple?

GG, LOL will be unplayable for MONTHS

Cowseed2 votes

Have you tried item 3165 ?

Lock On2 votes

He should either lose that grey health bullshit completely or heavily nerf the regen time as well as increase the mana cost so it's actually punishing when he misses his dash and wants to recover. Makes no sense how borderline-broken shit like him can exist yet Blitzcrank's pull is a clunky hitbox that costs 1/3 of his mana pool.

AlphaM Gaymer1 votes

You could say the same thing about any champion with non on-hit sustain.

Pyke isn't even a good champion right now, get over it.

PainTrainMrKayn1 votes

Bruh, he is an A tier support, very close to entering S tier again.

Ayzev1 votes

[{quoted}](name=AlphaM Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qBw4ye0Y,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-07-27T12:18:19.273+0000)

Pyke isn't even a good champion right now

Yeah, he's banned every 4th game and picked every 5th game just for no reason at all, isn't he

JuiceBoxP1 votes

That's just.... Not true... I rarely see him get banned.

When i play him, maybe he is banned 1 out of 10 games on average

Ayzev1 votes

I find stats to be more telling than one person's personal experience

Phreaktastic1 votes

If he still heals while taking damage, that means he still heals while a Teemo shroom could have the Morello debuff on him... Isn't that better than just prolonging the heal? You're effectively reducing the healing while simultaneously putting him at higher risk clearing the jungle/ganking.

AlterMordred1 votes

Love the Teemo player salt let it flowwwwww

chriskiller19931 votes

No, pyke is good as he is now.

TotalJerk1 votes

You know this change means Pyke heals more in the long run if Ignite or shrooms on a Teemo with Morellonomicon doesn't kill him, right? He'll be able to store the gray health for later, and heal twice as much when grievous wounds runs out.

This also nerfs how much healing he can get out of casting W for mid combat healing, something it is intended to be used for.

Cloud2731 votes

How about no? Let's not buff the champ with a 52% winrate.

https://champion.gg/champion/Teemo/Top

Ayzev1 votes

lolalytics, League of graphs, u.gg, op.gg all show a lower win rate, the highest being 50.76% on u.gg. And you're not taking into account the low pick rate or how hard his win rate drops when you filter out anything below masters.

Eliaspotato1 votes

Idk which player will just run in teemo mushrooms to clear them but his passive isn't op like you think it is. If Pyke engage then it will be hard for him to disengage without his w and the passive just helps him to sustain. Pyke is also kinda useless against hard cc so don't forget that

SiG DxD1 votes

pyke is is op

Padoµch1 votes

This. Yes Please!!!

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