%Max Hp True Damage Hurts this game...

GigglesO·Jan 19, 2017·28 votes·2,345 views

Why don't we turn it into % current hp instead... I just placed a vayne against a practice dummy in training mode... dear lord she was doing 1200 true damage to the poor guy... Everyone else took alot longer to kill him...

Her DPS 2400, draven and ect ~1300... I get that practice dummy's have 10k hp... but think of the poor tanks in leauge of legends that have 4-5k hp... poof dead...

%max hp will honestly never be balanced against tanks... Also, consider this, same build on every adc in practice mode, and she didn't even deal the least (without leveling her true damage at all)...

74 Comments

dunder killJan 19, 201710 votes

Vayne still does 80% of her damage as Physical damage. Those practice dummies in training mode only have 100 armor I believe

GigglesOJan 19, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Vayne still does 80% of her damage as Physical damage. Those practice dummies in training mode only have 100 armor I believe

Thats the thing though, they only have 100 armor... so you increase armor, and her DPS gap increases even more in comparison to the other adcs, because increasing armor decreases all phsyical damage regardless of champions...

dunder killJan 19, 20173 votes

Single target DPS is Vaynes only job as well. She has 550 range and 100% single target damage. She sacrifices range, waveclear, AoE, etc for pure single target DPS. If she sucked at it then what would be the point of her?

Jet SettJan 19, 20172 votes

I believe item 3085 and item 3087 remedy the lack of waveclear.

dunder killJan 19, 20171 votes

We're talking about Vayne and you suggest hurricane. Come on man

Jet SettJan 19, 20172 votes

Wave clear. The issue I am solving is wave clear. It's been done before when Vayne needed to clear before, it isn't actually that bad.

5000000000000000Jan 19, 20171 votes

Don't these dummies have like 10K HP, which is more than pretty much every champion other than (situationally) Sion?

SpoofghoulJan 19, 20171 votes

Yes Sion and 10k hp ive made it happen

though these days with 20 minute games. . .

AptestJan 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Thats the thing though, they only have 100 armor... so you increase armor, and her DPS gap increases even more in comparison to the other adcs, because increasing armor decreases all phsyical damage regardless of champions...

My belief is that %hp damage is excellent for ADCs to have. The more of it they have, at the expense of the rest of their kit, the more healthy they are.

no i do not think vayne is healthy. The problem in her kit is not the TD. It is the ult->tumble->crit 2-shot power against soft targets. Which is all about the AD steroid in her ult and her damage steroid in Q.

What would happen if ADCs have more %HP? tanks would die faster yes. So the tank lobby is going to be up in arms....

...but soft targets would dies SLOWER. Which will make the role of ADC as tank buster and general purpose damage dealer more accentuated and more distinct from "you=dead" which is other people's roles.

RalanrJan 19, 20172 votes

Crit changes that.

King LeBongJan 19, 20172 votes

Hmm a champion designed to be more effective against tanks and be able to skirmish with them is providing exactly that outcome, better nerf it :thinking:

SkelenthJan 19, 20171 votes

The thing is that she kills everything else even faster. Also most tanks can't do shit against Vayne

King LeBongJan 19, 20171 votes

That is absolutely the point of her kit, is there a misunderstanding here?

Baron of BreadJan 19, 20171 votes

Sejuani Hmm a champion designed to be durable against ADCs and be able to threaten their lives is providing exactly that outcome, better nerf it

As demonstrated by that case (Cinderhulk meta), the champion can be too good at their job and thus need nerfs.

Troll for TrumpJan 20, 20173 votes

psst It's not

King LeBongJan 20, 20171 votes

Then tell me what the point of her kit is.

She is absolutely supposed to be like that, by default any champion who builds 5-6 damage items is going to demolish everything that doesn't have 5-6 defensive items, and by her kit design she is supposed to reliably shred through tanks with no counterplay besides attack speed slows.

Troll for TrumpJan 20, 20173 votes

Not be able to kill things so quickly. She can duel people, but not burst them from stealth with crits a la assassin. Make her more dps and less bursty.

King LeBongJan 20, 20171 votes

Do you know what skirmishing is and what is required to be a skirmisher?

You want a low range single target champion that stacks damage items to not be able to kill things quickly, boards balance ideas in a nutshell.

TequilaZombieJan 20, 20171 votes

Well, if the only thing that can stop a full damage build is a full defense build and you make a champion who builds full damage able to destroy a fully defensive one, you have a problem.

King LeBongJan 20, 20171 votes

That is exactly how it's supposed to be? I don't understand here, you want someone with 6 items and a kit designed to trivialize tanks and be able to duel them to not fulfill their design?

There is no problem here, the problem is your knowledge about balance.

TequilaZombieJan 20, 20171 votes

Nope, I'd just rather not have the ultimate Tank Killer be the ultimate Squishy Killer as well.

King LeBongJan 21, 20171 votes

I'll make this easy here then, what does it take to kill a tank? Damage.

What do you build to achieve such a stat? Damage.

What happens when you have damage against a squishy? They die.

Your logic is awful and you can downvote it all you want, it's just a fact that a champion that builds damage and has damage steroids in their kit is going to destroy squishies.

TequilaZombieJan 21, 20171 votes

1- I'm not the one downvoting

2- You can destroy tanks with % health dmg, but it won't be that good against squishies.

If you crank up Vayne's W dmg and lower her Q crit she becomes more of a Tank killer than a squishy burster. She's less frustrating to face as the ones made to give her a hard time (aka squishy assassins), and is better at doing what she's supposed to do: kill the tankiest modafucka around.

King LeBongJan 21, 20171 votes

Why do you find Vayne's Q to be problematic? It's been that way ALWAYS, it was too strong when they buffed the ratio to .7 at max rank, but that was realized and then reverted.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Vayne's ability to kill squishies, by your logic all adcs should have flat damage removed and have purely AD scaling max health damage with no abilities.

Vayne is also not designed purely to kill tanks, that is an advantage of her kit which is designed around skirmishing.

To be a skirmisher you have to be able to fight in close quarters with bruisers and tanks, which requires being able to kill them before they can kill you.

Vayne is far from frustrating to face, her early and mid game are absolutely awful especially in this meta and with the current bottom lane meta.

You can't even really play her outside of low elo because she's so lackluster and doesn't even do her job well before 35 minutes.

If anything Vayne needs to be buffed, just not in the way Riot has tried it before. Her AD ratios are really touchy because the crit build can become too strong and remove her early/mid weakness.

Troll for TrumpJan 21, 20171 votes

Most skirmisher's have to build tanky. Vayne avoids this because unlike most skirmishers, she is ranged.

Fiora
Riven
Yasuo
Tryndamere
Master Yi
Jax
Ekko

None of these are really bursty, as much as dps based.

King LeBongJan 21, 20171 votes

? All of these except for maybe Yasuo, Tryndamere and Yi are inherently bursty.

Also none of these really build tanky besides Jax

Troll for TrumpJan 21, 20171 votes

Yeah no. Almost all of those are dps. The most bursty ones are Trynd and Yas, because of the nature of crit chance.

Tank Ekko >AP ekko. Even AP ekko needs hp to prevent being blown up. Successful Yi builds have been going tank or bruiser for a long time. Jax is 1-2 defence items and then tank Trynd doesn't go tank Riven is really flexible. Rivens that go full offense are bad, but she can get away without tankiness. Yasuo's all get tank stat items after 2 dmg items Fiora gets tanky, AD fiora died with the rework

King LeBongJan 21, 20171 votes

Full offense rivens are bad> highest winrate and most common build in high elo is full lethality

Yasuos all get tank stats after 2 dmg items > wrong, yasuos often get 3/4 damage items and defense boots / GA or another defense item

AD fiora died with rework and is built tanky > in some cases she does build tanky but tank fiora was made much less effective than it was before, ad fiora is the strongest path.

Tank ekko > ap ekko| > Tank Ekko has been dead for a long time, AP ekko is the most common build and the most successful currently

I think you're a bit out of the loop, and your game knowledge is awful based on your statements, that or you don't read patch notes or keep up with the meta.

Troll for TrumpJan 21, 20171 votes

Full Ad riven only works if you're a god. Don't build it normally. Don't build it when behind either.

Ap ekko is sht. They're both in the gutter right now. Tank ekko is better lategame

Tank Fiora is better than AD. it just is.

None of them are bursty, they're all dps based.

Going back to the main argument, Vayne needs less burst.

King LeBongJan 21, 20171 votes

Do you look at statistics? Do you look at these champions meta builds at all?

Ap ekko is fine, it's not syndra but it's a solid second tier APC. Tank Ekko is absolutely worthless, he is irrelevant and isn't a threat like he used to be.

Tank Fiora is extremely weak in damage output and has been since the nerfs to her true damage and base damages, it's not a better build.

Full damage Riven is the optimal build all around, you can't say it's only for good Riven players when it's the highest winrate across all elos above gold, if you're so bad at Riven that you triple Q and don't know when to go in then yeah you can build tanky and get away with it, that makes you a suboptimal player and not that the optimal build.

Vayne doesn't need less burst because she isn't really bursty, many ADs are much more bursty than her with far less items.

You're just the typical person who complains about Vayne, meanwhile she's a dumpster champion in high elo which means the solution to Vayne is in fact, don't be bad at the game.

GigglesOJan 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Hmm a champion designed to be more effective against tanks and be able to skirmish with them is providing exactly that outcome, better nerf it :thinking:

Then we need to nerf her damage against squishies very severely.

Hexs FortuneJan 19, 20178 votes

Vayne and kog both shred~~ tanks~~ everything by design

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 19, 20172 votes

they should...

not always the case...

last game i played vs vayne i was maokai.... she had 33.5k damage to champs... i did 59k to champs and only had 5 deaths

AckelopeJan 19, 20171 votes

they have the dmg built into their kit, but they're squishy enough that if they don't play well, they either die too often to do dmg, or stay too far away from the fight and don't end up contributing much, while a frontliner will basically be doing constant dmg and staying alive a while when done right.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 19, 20171 votes

well this game im speaking of i was 7-5-24 as mao top lane

and vayne who got fed early... (stupid bot lane lol ) ended up 12-13-8

Baron of BreadJan 19, 20171 votes

It is still a Vayne vs a Maokai. If she is ever visible near you, you can hit her with Twisted Advance and hold her cced for long enough that anyone with damage can blow her up.

Troll for TrumpJan 20, 20171 votes

And kog got unreworked because he was doing it well.

Kog and Vayne should be weak early and strong late. RIght now, Vayne isn't exactly doing that

Ulquiorra995Jan 20, 20174 votes

Kog got un-reworked because he completely broke an entire subclass of items, not because he was doing something well. As long as he existed in his reworked state, on-hit items had to be trash or he'd be ungodly broken.

What Vayne needs is to lose her burst. I'm ok with her having %hp true damage as the premier tank-buster mage. I'm not ok with her having that and two-shotting squishy champions with Q+shiv+AA.

Critmaster GarenJan 19, 20178 votes

i have the sneaking suspicion that Kindred was originally intended to be a Vayne rework. and they just gave up on the idea for some reason and slapped that kit on a new champion.

Troll for TrumpJan 20, 20171 votes

Thresh vs Blitzcrank

ArakadiaJan 19, 20174 votes

Don't the practice dummies have like a shit ton of health though? Her W scales off health, so it makes sense for practice dummies. Not surprising.

%max hp is the MAIN counter to tanks, when talking about kits. And Vayne's W is easily countered by attack speed slows.

QuephaJan 19, 20174 votes

{quoted}

I just placed a vayne against a practice dummy in training mode... dear lord she was doing 1200 true damage to the poor guy...

Are you making an argument for balance changes based on how much damage can be dealt to a training dummy? Then I guess Kalista needs to be nerfed because of how much damage she deals at 400 stacks...

GigglesOJan 19, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Are you making an argument for balance changes based on how much damage can be dealt to a training dummy? Then I guess Kalista needs to be nerfed because of how much damage she deals at 400 stacks...

Its about DPS... I was playing around with builds today... and Besides item 3043 item 3124 build which did deal the most... The second highest damage build to a 100 armor target (practice dummy) was item 3153 item 3072 item 3031 item 3046 item 3087 item 3508 . Without leveling w she did 150-200 less dps without casting Q or R than a draven with permanently spinning axes... I even had 3 in the air because of the "remove cool down" function...

That means for draven to do the same as vayne, without vayne using her ulti, or q, or w he has to perfectly catch his axes...

KaiokoJan 20, 20171 votes

I just want to point something out that seems common sense but so many people seem to ignore.

-- For a Vayne to kill you with true damage only she would need to hit you with 27 auto attacks (24 if we just ignore the last 4% of your health). Even if she reached the attack speed cap that would still take over 10 seconds and this is assuming you are not shielding nor healing yourself. Now how many tanks without heals/shields can survive for over 10 seconds against full build ADCs late game?

I really don't think true damage is the issue. if it was Vayne would not be going her crit burst build.

GigglesOJan 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I really don't think true damage is the issue. if it was Vayne would not be going her crit burst build.

We could always remove her free 70 ad on her ulti...

KaiokoJan 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

We could always remove her free 70 ad on her ulti...

I don't even think that's the issue. I think the issue for her is allowing her empowered Q to crit. Reducing it from 70% to 50% solved part of the issue but the bonus damage % really shouldn't crit at all.

You'd need to give her something though otherwise she'd go back to being useless.

GigglesOJan 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You'd need to give her something though otherwise she'd go back to being useless.

We could always allow tanky tanks (not this damage tank crap) to come back into the game.

King LeBongJan 21, 20171 votes

Her Q has been allowed to crit since she was made, and it was never a problem.

It's not a problem now, the only time it was too strong was after they buffed her ratio on it to .7 for 2 patches.

KaiokoJan 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Her Q has been allowed to crit since she was made, and it was never a problem.

It's not a problem now, the only time it was too strong was after they buffed her ratio on it to .7 for 2 patches.

Except it never was tied to the same auto attack roll before they fix it meaning that you'd have to land both the auto attack crit and the empowered crit roll which is why people only started doing the crit build after that was changed.