@Riot, I think it's time we had a talk about Elise.

DJ Hatsune Miku··2 votes·696 views

As I'm sure a lot of people have known for awhile now, Elise is borderline unplayable and her kit is possibly one of the biggest mistakes Riot has released in a game where they're trying to give champions defined strengths and weaknesses and hate "balls of stats" as champions. With her current kit Riot simply cannot just number buff Elise without her becoming the terror she was in the past. She needs a Nidalee level rework at the bare minimum to give her kit actual synergy and some good strengths and weaknesses.

The real question is how do we do that. The main problem, I find, with Elise's kit is it just simply does not fulfill her thematic fantasies. She's the Spider Queen and yet the only spidery thing about her is her non-human form. She doesn't command an army of spiders, she doesn't weave webs to lure targets into areas where she's is at a home field advantage, she's just a wandering girl in a costume spitting venom at people like a knock-off Cassi.

Honestly I'd like to see her be more like broodmother from DotA2 but I have a feeling Riot would prefer to keep her as a transform champ which means her kit should probably be worked into a utility mage/Bruiser combo to put her squarely into the jungle. Increase her interactions with spiderlings in both forms to give her a better feel for being a real spider queen. I've drafted up a proto-kit to give an idea of how to make her thematically more satisfying while not being terribly difficult to overhaul.

Passive spiderlings are visible in both forms, number available scales with ult rank and act as an ammo system for her human abilities. In human form they are non-interactable and do not block skillshots or attack targets.

Human form Q - Deals flat, targeted damage to an enemy. If she has a spiderling it launches with the attack to deal bonus damage. W - Sends out a path of web in a line, giving Elise a movement speed bonus while traveling along it and snaring enemies that touch it briefly, (Probably just a mini-snare at best, like .5 seconds) If she has a spiderling it will travel along the webbing and chase any nearby targets. Contacting an enemy will cause it to explode and spread the web area to its explosion radius. E - Fires out a skillshot that slows the target on hit. If she has a spiderling it will enhance the ability to stun instead for the duration and deal minor damage.

Spider Form Q - Same as current, although the execute mechanic is tied to how many spiderlings she has currently with 0 dealing no % missing health and max dealing slightly more than live. W - Attack speed steroid that gives her spiderling's attacks on hit a %max health shred for the duration and heal Elise for an amount of the damage dealt. Elise herself only gains flat health on hit and attack speed. E - Reverted to the state where it was actually useful, as in it will send Elise after the enemy even outside of the indicator, which would also be made larger.

So gating a large portion of her damage behind her spiderlings means Elise players have to actually care about their spiderlings and maximize their use instead of just having them be a bonus. Human W is more of a thematic thing to give her a more spidery feel. Could also be changed to a Trundle W-esque ability which I think would also be very good and thematically satisfying as much like you don't want to fight a king in his kingdom, you don't fight a spider in her web.

Putting emphasis on her spiderlings also opens up a large portion of counterplay for her opponents because they can kill her spiderlings to cut out part of Elise's damage in spider form and force her to retreat back and recharge/use her human utility while waiting for more spiderlings. Since they're now a good chunk of Elise's power budget rather than an after thought they could also be reasonably buffed up in terms of survivability.

So the question for Riot and the community is... Are you thematically satisfied with Elise's kit, do you think it can buffed to a point where it's strong but not oppressively so, or is she in need of a full overhaul to get her to where she's both in a balanceable state and satisfying to play as. As she is now I don't think she's in a state where she can be properly balanced and she is far from satisfying to play.

1 Comments

Abyssphere1 votes

Personally I'm happy with her kit. I very much DO agree that she doesn't fit a spider fantasy very well. I mean it's all well and good being a giant spider with some pets and throwing exploding spiders is great, but it's spiders in visuals/names alone, which isn't ideal. However, I do still feel like a spider lady. It's just not as strong as it could have been. Unfortunately she's so far away from actually fighting like a spider would (aside from tangling someone in your web > kill them with Cocoon) that it'd involve changing her way too much to make her fulfill the fantasy properly. I want to keep my champion, I don't want a Karma/Trundle/Sion.

Balance-wise it's iffy. I honestly feel like her kit can be balanced and Riot just needs to actually load her numbers into one part of the kit more than anything. From release Elise's power was in her base stats of EVERYTHING. High base damage on Qs, high base on human W (still there), high effectiveness on spider W without any investment, free tankiness in spider form, etc etc. She could build full tank and lose basically nothing because her crappy AP scaling was made up for by insane bases. She could build damage and be fine because woo free tankiness.

She lost her free tank stats, and she also lost a lot of her free damage (base damage on her Qs have both been reduced) but IMO she still gets a lot for free and that's the problem with her. Why not reduce the numbers on her Qs further? Nidalee's Bushwhack maxed out at 100 damage with % current health but Neurotoxin maxes at 180. I'd probably go for something like:

Neurotoxin: 40 / 75 / 110 / 145 / 180 (+8% (+3% per 100 AP) of target's current health) > 40 / 70 / 100 / 130 / 160 (+6% (+4% per 100 AP) of target's current health) Max. % Health Damage vs. Monsters: 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 / 175 > 100 / 125 / 150 / 175 / 200

Venomous Bite: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+8% (+3% per 100 AP) of target's current health) > 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 (+6% (+4% per 100 AP) of target's current health) Max. % Health Damage vs. Monsters: 75 / 100 / 125 / 150 / 175 > 100 / 125 / 150 / 175 / 200

Volatile Spiderling: 75 / 125 / 175 / 225 / 275 (+ 80% AP) > 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240 (+ 80% AP)

Skittering Frenzy heal: 4 (+ 4% AP) > 4 (+ 5% AP)

Rappel range: 750 > 800

Spider Form on-hit magic damage: 10 / 20 / 30 / 40 ( + 30% AP) > 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 ( + 40% AP)


I feel like those changes would go a long way to balancing her. She's not inherently tanky anymore so pushing her into the damage direction just makes sense and with these changes she'll only do damage if it's justifiable (i.e. if she's built for it). The slight buff to Skittering Frenzy's heal plus the fact that she'll actually build AP now means she'll be a lot more survivable than currently (even with less tank items) BUT she'll need to commit to a fight to get that survivability. None of the current nonsense where she just stays in the back firing out Neurotoxins and Cocoons. And I'm not sure how necessary the Rappel buff is but I felt like she had room for it. That move is frustrating at the mo.

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