Can warrior and blood razor get utility effects like echoes and cinderhulk?

SIayton·May 16, 2016·11 votes·1,377 views

Just a random thought, warrior and razor are really boring and don't add much to your kit. Echoes and Cinderhulk both fit a slot in your build of an item you were already going to build probably anyway, so maybe can we get a Warrior enchant that gives us a sheen passive or tiamat activation / aoe autos? Maybe give blood razor an active that gives something like ghostblade or possibly slowing attacks for a brief window?

Mostly I just feel like warrior and razor are really underwhelming compared to the other two and would love to see something added to make them more attractive as a first buy. It never feels GOOD getting warrior and bloodrazor like the other two.

26 Comments

AbyssphereMay 16, 20163 votes

Razor already has it - it's got the BOTRK on-hit %HP damage. Nothing flashy but neither is Cinderhulk. Warrior is a bland stat stick because unlike the original Magus and Juggernaut, it functions (thus it was never necessary to rework), and it's really difficult to find an AD component item that'd make an exciting addition to the build path. Tiamat was the popular suggestion but wasn't workable because it's melee-only and now with Tracker's Knife in the game it's unworkable because you'd have two component items with different actives in the build path. You could try Sheen but AD junglers are the least mana-reliant group (Lee Sin and people like Trynd/Aatrox being manaless) so that's wasted power that people will feel bad about.

I'd be happy for Riot to give Warrior something unique for the sake of fun but it's difficult to find the correct component and it's even more difficult to justify it being necessary for balance. AD junglers by default have the best early-mid clear in the game so they don't need a clear buff like Echoes/Cinder and they wouldn't appreciate losing combat stats in exchange for that. Presently Riot seem to think CDR is more valuable on them than something like Serrated Dirk's passive, but of course they may be wrong in that.

shyvMay 16, 20162 votes

bloodrazer needs the movespeed boost from phage, imo.

SIaytonMay 16, 20161 votes

Yeah I could see that synergizing with the champions that use it. Most of them have problems sticking except Kindred.

shyvMay 16, 20161 votes

most shyv mains are being forced to build black cleaver or triforce now so it would be really good if bloodrazer had some kind of movespeed.

i can't speak for all former devo junglers but i think that would help shyvana jungle stop feeling like shit. shyv top is still a complete mess though riot really fucked that one up.

ff4skMay 16, 20162 votes

Riot is biased towards AP/Tank champions. Most of the jungle creeps have negative magic pen meaning mages can pretty much kill them faster with spells while ad have to tank them for longer due to them having armor. sure it's just a small thing but it makes clearing for AP junglers much easier and faster than AD which makes no sense.

Not sure if it's to do with the mages update or all the item balancing but right now it feels more rewarding to just stack AP or Armor and either go full tank or AP cause you'll have a ton of burst potential or damage output while not being as squishy as a feather.

I'm not asking for buffs to AD but seriously, there needs to be some nerfs to AP and tanks. Just look at how bullshit ekko is at the moment, he can just go runic then 2 armor items and he's set. gut the bastard.

Best Darius KRMay 16, 201610 votes

Riot is biased towards AP/Tank champions.

Said noone ever.

runedaraMay 16, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Darius KR,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9mmYgkzm,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-05-16T10:28:39.017+0000)

Said noone ever.

It's funny he thinks that when for 9 patches streaks and maw stacked making it impossible for mages to burst them.

SIaytonMay 16, 20162 votes

Ekko being a problem is more related to ekko's high base damage and his utility / mobility / lack of risk and not so much the jungle items though.

I personally like Runic Echo and CInderhulk being good, they should just bring the other two up in power level.

ff4skMay 16, 20162 votes

I dunno, I personally want everything to be toned down so it would actually take some effort to kill someone rather than everyone shitting out massive amounts of damage.

Jungle Lux GodMay 16, 20161 votes

Warrior's been pretty good for a while, with some of the strongest junglers in pro play using Warrior (at MSI, Kindred and Graves were highly contested picks, both of whom used Warrior, while Nidalee and Elise were the other two most contested picks for jungle, both of whom used Echoes), but Bloodrazor definitely needs buffs and is getting them next patch.

AbyssphereMay 16, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Riot is biased towards AP/Tank champions. Most of the jungle creeps have negative magic pen meaning mages can pretty much kill them faster with spells while ad have to tank them for longer due to them having armor. sure it's just a small thing but it makes clearing for AP junglers much easier and faster than AD which makes no sense.

Not sure if it's to do with the mages update or all the item balancing but right now it feels more rewarding to just stack AP or Armor and either go full tank or AP cause you'll have a ton of burst potential or damage output while not being as squishy as a feather.

I'm not asking for buffs to AD but seriously, there needs to be some nerfs to AP and tanks. Just look at how bullshit ekko is at the moment, he can just go runic then 2 armor items and he's set. gut the bastard.

Or maybe jungle camps have negative magic resist because AD champions have stronger auto attacks across the board and therefore don't need their abilities to hit as hard as AP/tank junglers do...? Maybe AD junglers don't need to clear camps as quickly as AP/tank junglers because the lifesteal on their jungle item is more meaningful as they scale it significantly better...?

ff4skMay 16, 20161 votes

Well other junglers get leashes, me personally i play independent junglers so I have to tank a lot of the damage early on and manage my health effectively. I don't get how you use the argument that AD is better than AP because it's constant when by the time you land one auto on an ap champ they would have burst you to 5% of your health in one rotation. AP is far stronger in the long run especially if the champion is capable of going tanky.

sure early on it makes sense to give AP a helping hand but there needs to be some limitations to the damage they do. AD melee junglers can't exactly compete when by the time they land a few hits on an AP champion he would have destroyed them in two abilties.

all I'm saying is some nerfs are due, and not just in the jungle.

AbyssphereMay 16, 20162 votes

I referred only to jungle camp magic resist in my post, so what happens in AP vs AD champion fights is completely irrelevant. This discussion relates solely to how different types of champions clear in the jungle and when it comes to jungle clear, AD champions are king because they have better DPS than mage junglers and especially tank junglers across the board. This is why the AP and tank enchants have jungle clear amplifiers and this is why negative MR exists. Otherwise AD junglers would have "Clear better than everyone else" as an inherent strength and that leads to every other type of jungler struggling. Before the MR on camps was lowered you never saw AP junglers this pre-season and before Cinderhulk/Runeglaive were introduced you only ever saw Warrior junglers.

AP/tank vs AD jungle clear is balanced as is, there's a reason it's set up how it is right now.

If you don't ask for leashes and have poor sustain in the jungle then ... the problem is not getting leashes. Why would a jungler with a leash NOT clear better than a jungler without one? How big a disadvantage do you expect AP/tank junglers to be at if they have worse clear with a leash than AD junglers without one? If you want healthy clear then ask for a leash on your first camp, otherwise you've got no right to complain. And I could very easily turn your post into "Wow AD champions don't even need leashes? Wish tanks could be like that".

As regards your general AP vs AD rant, AD champions have burst too. If you find it impossible to duel mages as melee AD then there are severe problems on your end because mages are very weak to melee physical damage dealers in general. Why you would just assume that AP had randomly became broken as a stat is beyond me.

Jungle Lux GodMay 16, 20162 votes

Do you realize that monsters were given negative magic resistance because AP and tank junglers as a whole were struggling in the jungle?

And that AP junglers have to use an absurdly large quantity of mana to clear the jungle with anywhere close to the clear speeds of AD junglers, while tank junglers physically cannot clear even close to the speed of AD junglers despite the negative magic resistance? Of course there are exceptions on both ends, but it's most common for AP champions to have mana problems and for tanks to have poor clear speeds.

And that Ekko is bullshit because of Ekko being bullshit and not because of the itemization surrounding him?

According to your match history you play a lot of Shaco in the jungle and don't play any AP or tank junglers. You might want to play some AP or tank junglers before you can actually bring an argument that "Riot is biased towards AP/Tank champions" so you can experience the struggles that we AP/Tank jungle mains have every single game before we complete our jungle item.

PartholonianMay 17, 20162 votes

Bloodrazor already has BOTRK's passive, the issue is that what people actually buy BOTRK for is the lifesteal and the active, which Bloodrazor doesn't have. But it's not named so you can buy both and stack the health shreds (and AS/onhit items synergize really well, although building first and second items offensive makes you squishy).

Warrior has CDR, which I think is supposed to be relevant to the kind of champs that are expected to build it like Khazix Pantheon LeeSin Rengar . Death's Dance's "lifesteal on all physical damage to any target including physical abilities" passive would be sexy on those same types of champions, but then Riot would have to decide whether it should stack with actual Death's Dance or not, and what it would mean for it to be available on your first item. Maybe some amount of ordinary lifesteal, but would that mean lowering the raw AD or replacing the CDR and if so would that work out to a net buff at all?

And something that is sometimes overlooked in this type of comparison: all jungle items have the full array of vs. monster powers - machete has 8% lifesteal vs monsters, increasing to 10% on any tier 2 jungle item, which synergizes with AD and AS jungle items in a way it doesn't with the others. (Most junglers of any class have enough AOE to make good use of Talisman's lifedrain-over-time per monster.) AS also synergizes with the 20 onhit damage to monsters on machete and all its upgrades.

BluePolarizerMay 16, 20161 votes

I liked Warrior when it gave less AD but gave Arpen.

It made it more accessible to alot more champs and builds than the new Warrior with flat AD does.

AbyssphereMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I liked Warrior when it gave less AD but gave Arpen.

It made it more accessible to alot more champs and builds than the new Warrior with flat AD does.

Examples of champions and builds that like old Warrior and find new Warrior inaccessible?

BluePolarizerMay 16, 20161 votes

Any champ that relies more on base damage rather than scaling since Arpen scales base damage as well. It isn't really that they don't build Warrior anymore (they kinda have to if they don't have synergy with Cinderhulk) it's just that the old Warrior was better.

I used to confidently go Warrior Hecarim. Now I get Cinderhulk unless I am getting loads of kills.

Sire HippingtonMay 16, 20161 votes

agree on warrior, though it's not that warrior is weak, it's just a very, VERY boring stat stick. For Bloodrazor, i think we have to wait how the buffs in 6.10 play out, as theoretically it offers very potent dps for a single item that scales into late, allowing to built rather tanky, beeing basically what most AA-based junglers need. If it still is underwhelming, i think adding some sustain to it woul be the most appropiate solution, as that's another thing AA based junglers want and would get from BotrK(which is kinda the no-jungle version of bloodrazor) but most likely have trouble fitting into their kit unless they built squishy and just blow up in teamfights.

Also, where does cinderhulk have a utillity effect? it's all combat stats, health and some dps.

SIaytonMay 16, 20161 votes

When I say utility effect I just mean adding something to your kit other than stats. The AOE aura adds utility to your kit in that it gives you aoe clear on your camps that you otherwise wouldn't have had. I think that classifies as utility, yes?

Runic echoes is the same. You get splash damage on spells and a way to restore your mana. That's utility you wouldn't have with just stats.

Warrior and Razor are just stats, in comparison.

Sire HippingtonMay 17, 20161 votes

i wouldn't say dealibng more damage is utillity. As far as I'm concerned, utillity is anything that doesn't directly affect damage or tankiness, and cinderhulk directly increases your damage. What cinderhulk effectively gives is faster clears, which any off stat could give aswell, just that cindehulk gives the same clear increase for anyone no matter what scaleings they have Ludens on the other hand gives mobillity wich is utillity, and aditional mana which kinda is utillity aswell.

Though the core point is and stays that all complete items offer something unique besides stats, only warriors gives nothing else, which makes it feel lacking and mostly booring.

Pika FoxMay 16, 20161 votes

Honestly i think warrior is the only real outlier, not because its bad, but because the other jungle items are jungle substitutes for full cost items.

Bloodrazer is the counterpart of BotRK

Echoes obviously Ludens

Cinderhulk is a jungle Funfire Cape.

Warrior doesnt really have a counterpart that it represents; just a job that its built to do, which is support AD casters in the jungle. I dont think it can really exist as a counterpart to an item, since cleaver gives HP, which is cinderhulk's thing, and lifesteal/arpen added would make it too expensive or be too abusive in the jungle.

Jungle Lux GodMay 16, 20161 votes

The reason they don't get interesting effects is that they don't need interesting effects to be good for AD champions.

Most AD junglers already have good clears in the early game while most tank and AP junglers have some severe problems that tone down their respective early clears. In addition, AD junglers get significantly more out of the jungle upgrades than tank and AP junglers due to the lifesteal on it relative to the small bonuses between Talisman and the upgrades, and also get a lot more options that improve their early clears that AP and tank junglers don't get, such as Tiamat or Vampiric Scepter.

Tank junglers need their Cinderhulk to remain relevant as the game goes on because their clear speeds are so slow. What alternatives do they have? The only possible alternatives are Sheen and Recurve bow to build into Iceborn Gauntlet and Wit's End, respectively, and in terms of clears one of them is super dependent on the champion you are playing and the other sucks, and neither of them give tank stats.

AP junglers need echoes to remain relevant as the game goes on because their clears are so mana intensive. What alternatives do they have? Maybe they can rush an early Tear of the Goddess or Lost Chapter for some mana sustain, but it's not nearly enough to offset the total mana you use in the jungle, and there's no other alternatives.

LatetotheRaceMay 16, 20161 votes

With all of these little mobile AP tanks running around, I'd rather not see the AD on hit guys doing the same.

xxxDogmanxxxMay 17, 20161 votes

Give Warrior its armor penetration back! Or at least 10% lifesteal. That way, it can be like a mini-Ghostblade or a mini-Death's Dance.

You can even do something like:

item 1412 - Unique Passive: Heals for 10% of all physical damage dealt. Unique Passive: 10% of all damage received turns it into a Bleed effect over three seconds.

World EnderMay 17, 20161 votes

All of the jungle enchants are statistically weak compared to their counterparts. Runic echoes is a weaker luden's with less AP and movespeed. Cinderhulk is a sunfire cape that late game might give slightly more health but no armor. Bloodrazor is similar to BoRK but is missing it's AD and life steal. Warrior is basically a Youmuu's without the armor pen and the active. Come late game, all of the jungle enchants could be sold for another item and you would not miss them, except for their smite upgrades. There needs to be some way to upgrade your jungle item at level 18 to put it's stats on par with standard items. That's the real problem.