With the next patch, Riot will have succeeded in removing a Champion entirely with minimal outcry.

Over Innsmouth·Nov 6, 2016·16 votes·1,791 views

I for one will be attending his funeral singing praises unto death and undeath.

Banshee's Veil already exists if you want an item with a Spellshield. A good chunk of the roster can already invalidate Karthus's ult with their innate kit, and Maw of Malmortius does and will continue to block a massive chunk of Requiem's damage.

But nooooo, that's not enough, and so Riot has cursed us with the instrument of this ghastly murder: Edge of Night.

Just...why? Why does this item need to exist? Why do AD Champions get three separate AD/MR items when AP Champs only have the one AP/AR item?

...

At least make it melee only.

41 Comments

five oh tree Nov 6, 201620 votes

because waiting for an entire fight to be over utilize the active of an item definitely sounds like what an assassin will do. If they don't use the spell shield when they jump in, they will not succeed. Spending that much gold to get a spellshield and then not using it to initiate would be fucking dumb. They'll just get cc'd and blown up because everyone will see their extra telegraphed (thanks assassin update) assassination coming. I doubt this will affect karthus's winrate at all.

FazorNov 7, 20162 votes

someone finally understands

God RaijinNov 7, 20161 votes

Implying that OP wasn't primarily talking about ADC's picking it up

five oh tree Nov 7, 20161 votes

I searched through his post. there was no mention of the words, "marksman" or "ADC" throughout the entire thing. Please tell me where he's primarily talking about them.

God RaijinNov 7, 20161 votes

"AD champions" bet you got me fucking good there

PermabannedGarenNov 6, 20165 votes

Who even gives a shit about Karthus' ult?

His ult does about as much damage as three unisolated Qs (not as much base damage, but better scaling). In an actual fight it won't affect him at all. All it might do is prevent him from getting cheese executions, but considering the assassin probably used it to go into the fight it will probably be on cooldown.

This will have a very negligible affect on Karthus' win rate.

Handy Sandy Nov 6, 20164 votes

A good Karthus rarely uses his ult to kill someone, he already has very high single target DPS, and if they do they have to know the cooldowns of all their abilities such as master yi's meditate, fizz's E, etc. (Of course you aren't going to be timing it for all the enemy team's champions, just the target you tried to kill...) Most likely melee champions will be using it to engage, Karthus uses it to kill retreating enemies.

GULAG 4 UNov 7, 20164 votes

"minimal outcry"? What the hell dude? The boards literally had more Karthus mains than mordekaiser mains for one fucking week LOL

MarshbouyNov 7, 20161 votes

"i'm a karthus main since yesterday" That was one of my favorite posts.

LostFr0stNov 6, 20163 votes

Edge of night is on a delayed channel that is interrupted by damage.

Sahn UzalNov 6, 201610 votes

UNIQUE Active - Night's Veil: Channel for 1.5 seconds to grant a spell shield that blocks the next enemy ability. Lasts for 10 seconds. (45 second cooldown) (Can move while channeling, but taking samage breaks the channel)

-_-

ACTIVE: Karthus channels for 3 seconds and deals magic damage to all enemy champions upon its completion.

MarshbouyNov 6, 20161 votes

I think what he is saying is that if you use it while fighting someone, or in a teamfight, it will be useless.

LostFr0stNov 6, 20161 votes

TY for references Tidal^^ My beef is with it lasting for 10 sec tbh.

MarshbouyNov 6, 20161 votes

I think it is that way so a zed can actually assassinate someone. Seriously, playing an assassin feels like shit when the enemy team can peel.

LostFr0stNov 6, 20161 votes

But 10 seconds... c'mon. Even a potato doesn't need 10 seconds. The only time it would be useful is if you're chasing a Trap-layer and that one cc will turn the fight but you don't know where or when it'll be, but then wouldn't the item be considered a hard-counter to such champions and unfair to their kits?

MarshbouyNov 6, 20161 votes

well. Trap layers already have to deal with item 3364 item 3341 item 2043 item 3102 i don't think it's gonna be a huge change.

LostFr0stNov 6, 20161 votes

New control ward is far worse for them, you're right. Better add that extra rib shot :^)

CrazedPorcupineNov 6, 20161 votes

its so that you use it before you go in to block the inevitable CC that'll get flung your way to stop your assassination.

LostFr0stNov 6, 20161 votes

I get that; but 10 seconds is still a bit much.

CrazedPorcupineNov 6, 20161 votes

Tell me, when was the last time you played an assassin and you just sat around waiting for the opportunity to go in? Now, imagine if you are about to go in, trigger the spell shield, then your positioning is ruined, reinforcements arrive or a fight starts before you're ready. those 10 seconds help you ensure that the spell shield is up when you need it. Don't forget that you can still get poked and lose the shield

LostFr0stNov 6, 20161 votes

I'd rather them bring it down a few seconds and leave the assassin with a lingering buff tbh. It's going to be just as annoying having to hold 2 spells (one to pop it and the second to cc) for those 10 seconds as it will be for the assassin to have it popped by aoe spray.

TheHappyReaperzNov 7, 20161 votes

Peeling is the counterplay to assassins.

GULAG 4 UNov 7, 20166 votes

"Let me do nothing during a fite and save dat active for karthy's ult... seems great...."

"Oh wait that's one of the reasons why I'm silver 3"

Sahn UzalNov 7, 20161 votes

Because Karthus ult can only be cast in the middle of a teamfight. I can not imagine any other use for it. Especially not in the midgame.

Over InnsmouthNov 6, 20161 votes

1.5 seconds really isnt that long.

MunchCrunchLunchNov 7, 20163 votes

if you picked karthus into an assassin he countered you already. i don't think that item is a big deal to karthus. its probably a lot worse for a champion like ahri that initiates during a fight with cc.

MarshbouyNov 6, 20161 votes

Don't people usually use his ult for plain old damage during a fight anyways now? I played one game of karthus, so take this with a lot of salt, but i found it way more effective to ult before a fight to discourage the fight and tip an advantage, rather than just save it for a pick at the end of the fight.

Over InnsmouthNov 6, 20161 votes

Either/or honestly, it's up to the players judgement. They may want to use it beforehand, or charge in and use it with Death Defied to either pick off low-health foes or simply discourage them from pushing an objective.

MarshbouyNov 6, 20161 votes

When i played karthus i would run in once a fight started. E active, spamming spells. Then once i died i would use my ult. It was a good 4-5k damage off in total every time. I would die, yes, but we would also get an almost guaranteed win.

FourVsFiveNov 6, 20161 votes

Why not make it Create some kind of Dot while it powers up, so that bansheeviel and such be useless for it.

Ferus and FerrumNov 7, 20161 votes

Yeah! Why have counterplay for a global multi-target nuke that requires nothing more than the click of a button?

WarlockLawNov 7, 20161 votes

The counterplay is the Karthus has one of the worst laning phases in the entire game (especially so for mid laners). Add to that the incredibly shitty base damage on his rank 1 ult means he rarely actually picks up kills with it, only really picking up assists when he coordinates with a jungle gank at bot/top. Sprinkle in the longest ult cooldown in the game. Add in the fact that Rylai's offers up a better slow than his W does for most of the game.

I see plenty of counterplay here.

Ferus and FerrumNov 7, 20161 votes

First of all, none of what you mentioned even remotely counts as counterplay. Maybe if you said that his ulti could be interrupted you'd have an argument.

We're not talking about his entire kit which functions independently of his ultimate. His ultimate has some counter-buys like hourglass, and counters like fizz or vlad or sivir but otherwise you're getting hit. A champ having a shit early game doesn't mean that their ult isn't obnoxious or unfair. see ( Warwick ) Champ has the strongest point click cc in the game that deals damage with 1 frame worth of wind-up. "But hey, he's useless til 6 so it's fair right?" No.

Why would the base damage on his level 1 ult be good? He might ult for a kill botlane, but good to know as the enemy toplaner that I would get screwed out of 300 hp inevitably fucking my lane beyond recognition, same thing with jungler. It's meant to pick up assists early to help karthus scale without hypersnowballing all of his lanes by chunking them all simultaneously. That's also why the cooldown is huge, because otherwise karthus would single-handedly win every lane in the game and jungle by constantly spamming ulti off of cd.

Idk why you're bringing up his w, yeah the slow is weak early, but it also shreds MR which rylais doesn't do...

The champion functioning as intended to stay balanced isn't "counterplay"

WarlockLawNov 7, 20161 votes

Riot has, in the past, used poor early game and weak parts of champion's kit as justifications for strong late game/powerful abilities. Sure full build Karthus with ult is one of the strongest team fight champions in the game, but if he can't farm at all for the better part of laning phase then he damn well better outscale his opponent. Counterplay is anything that can be used to beat a champion and invalidate/weaken them. An extremely weak laning phase gives you something to abuse so you can massively shut him down, and a shut down Karthus does literally nothing for a team.

Ferus and FerrumNov 7, 20161 votes

Wrong. Counterplay by definition is any means by which a "player" can respond to a champions abilities or kit as a whole.

This entire thread was based off of people being concerned about one ability. His ultimate which, outside of certain champions and items, cannot be avoided at all.

Sure Karthus has a weaker laning phase, most hyper carries do. But being unable to farm is a bit of a stretch considering the way his E passive works and the fact that his Q basically serves as his auto attack.

You can shut any champ down in lane by straight up beating them or camping them and zoning them from farm. Having a rough early game doesn't justify a lack of counterplay (again see warwick/Katarina/Akali) All of them have abysmal early pressure and landing phases yet they are either hated or unplayable at various divisions. People don't care that they're early games are rough if they can ever break out or pop off in a fight it invalidates all that. What's the counterplay then?

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 7, 20161 votes

52% win rate in queues in both top and mid. Win-rate has peaks and valleys in normal queue, going as high as 60%+ and as low as a little over 40%

Wew lads, so ded.

Akali is SO HOTNov 7, 20161 votes

I don't know why people assume that all 5 people on the enemy team are going to instantly get this item let alone waste it on his ult. If I was playing an assassin I would much rather use it to avoid a Twisted Fate stun than a Karthus ult.

Jet SettNov 7, 20161 votes

Was thinking you meant Shaco, especially since Karthus is a major threat outside of his ult too. I've been on the boards so much I thought Karthus was weak until late game, so I underestimated his early damage and gave first blood. At least you guys are right about Yas and Vayne.

Athenes LuluNov 7, 20161 votes

What? Saving that for an ult though there's plenty of more dangerous spells that could potentially kill an assassin's job to do work?

I'd love to have a Karthus on my team so baddies can save that active for some damage spell and therefore I can continue to peel. Sweet!

ShatteredSkysNov 7, 20161 votes

i highly doubt this Edge of Night will have much effect on Karthus at all. Karthus doesn't rely on his ult for the majority of his damage. Most of the time it deals like two to three isolated Qs worth of damage. And karthus's thing has always been is Aoe damage, yeah you have a nice spellshield buts he's still tearing a part the rest of your team.

Also very few champions want to build Edge of Night. (And of those champions most of them are AD Assassins which why are you picking Karthus into? ) Right now only specific ADs and assassins want to build it. The ones off the top of my head are: Talon, Zed, Kha Zhix, Rengar, Jhin, and MF. There aren't a lot of champions that want Lethalitly and MR as a stat when hexdrinker is a thing.