@Riot @Meddler Any hope for Cinderhulk Junglers in pre-season?

Holgranth·Sep 22, 2016·18 votes·1,124 views

Seriously all my favorite junglers are way below the barrier of entry. There is a giant sign saying "You must clear this fast to be viable."

May have amazing ganks but and can gank 2x as much, counter jungle, duel you and snowball harder.

Some level of clear speed homogenization is required. There needs to be pros and cons to every jungler and right now the best of the best have only massive powerspikes and no real weaknesses.

32 Comments

LankPantsSep 22, 20166 votes

Changing item 1041 was a mistake. This is a classic example of the rich getting richer. AA junglers who already had the fastest and best clears got an item tailored to making sure they can clear the jungle which puts tanks massively behind the curve since they can't exploit this factor of clearing.

If Riot's going to insist on keeping this item I believe they should introduce a new, first tier jungle item however and have it work like the old Quill Coat. Then have the knives build from 2 of the 3 taking the passives of the two they built from. This way tanks would have an AS agnostic way of clearing the jungle and hopefully not be put as ridiculously far behind the curve.

PapaGreg21Sep 22, 20166 votes

The cinderhulk era was the greatest era in league. Outside of three or 4 abusers of the item, people used to be so happy playing at that time. I have no idea why it was nerfed into the third worst jungling item

ofartSep 22, 20163 votes

Cinderhulk junglers seem OK to me.

Gear KittySep 22, 20162 votes

Rammus

DunkinNoobsSep 22, 20163 votes

When was the last time you actually played Sejuani ? She has hasn't had a slow clear in a long ass time.

PermabannedGarenSep 22, 20162 votes

There are actually people who pretend that cinderhulk junglers are bad.

TheSingularitySep 22, 20162 votes

Imo sej and sion are fine. Sej farms and ganks very well currently (imo the best tank jungler around for now). And if sion could farm any faster.... he'd be so dam broken (10hp per big monster)

Issue with naut and other slow clear junglers is that they are forced to take way to much damage due to prolonged monster fights. This forces them to back early while every other non tank and zac carry on clearing, sustaining and ganking.

As lankpants said. Quil coat is an ideal solution. The item was amazing when it was around and I would love to see it replace cinderhulk (quil coat tracking knife and cloth armour replaces bamis cinder, sapping barbs replaces immolate).

Tbh just get rid of the smites period. The old lizard item gave a red buff effect (red smite without damage reduction) and was built for AD. There are no ap champs who use red smite apart from elise (who generally buys blue smite)

The old golem was pretty much the same as cinderhulk but also gave armour and had the sapping barbs passive ( granted one less ward). Most tanks don't actually need blue smite and sej is the only one I've found to synergise better with red smite than green.

Admittedly the spectral wraith sucked but perhaps give it "the first spell cast in X sec that hits an enemy champs slows them"

The Yetii RiderSep 22, 20161 votes

Evelynn buys Skirmisher's Sabre all the time,

TheSingularitySep 23, 20161 votes

The few times I see an eve, it's more often than not chilling smite

The Yetii RiderSep 22, 20162 votes

Cinderhulk isn't really the issue, the issue is how long it takes to get the Immolation passive. You basically need to complete the knife first for wards or blue smite, and you need to buy Bami's Cinder.

So you don't get any real help clearing until 2150 gold, which is an insanely high amount. I think the cost of knives should be lowered dramatically, back down to 700 like it used to be. Then tanks can get Cinder at 1800 gold instead of 2159, helping their early game a lot.

GULAG 4 USep 23, 20162 votes

Yeah cinderhulk era was very fun, /sarcasm

MarshbouySep 22, 20161 votes

riots gonna need to do a lot to see that happen...

MunchCrunchLunchSep 22, 20161 votes

well bloodrazor. is shit. when its comes to clearing as well. so is warrior. which is why a lot of ads are rushing tiamat. the ap item is the best for clearing atm. and ap champs usually have good aoe anyway.

Big LincolnSep 22, 20161 votes

sejuani is better with runic echoes tbh

makes everything infinitely easier, from clearing to ganking to being relevant in the mid-game.

ErockandrollSep 22, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9bHPnuPa,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-09-22T04:38:32.004+0000)

sejuani is better with runic echoes tbh

makes everything infinitely easier, from clearing to ganking to being relevant in the mid-game.

I think this is the main cross road that Riot needs to look at. Part for the AP Tanks like Sej or Gragas, but also more generally, how are they going to make the item more distinct. especially towards the junglers who have multiple options.

If the Runic Echo rout on Gragas gives him better Clearing and early power, what would Cinderhulk give him in contrast? Similarly for AD bruisers, how would the tankier option differ from either Blood razor or Warrior?

My guess would be, the ability to hyper tank. And Cinderhulk did have that notion of release, when the % bonus HP was set at 25%. Riot as since reduced it to just 15% (but with a higher base HP) on the grounds that they didn't want it to occupy the same late game niche as Devourer. But since they got rid of devourer, that change no longer makes sense. As such, I should think that Cinderhulk needs it's late game niche back, since most Tanks are going to have terrible early games jungle wise.

Earl EulrichSep 22, 20164 votes

nope, tanks right no absolutly don´t have any lategame - you could setthat to +80%hp and they´d still melt in 4sec 100-0 in a 5v5 at 40min. what tankjunglers need is instant power that alows them to be potent in the midgame where tanks shine the most currently.

RalanrSep 22, 20161 votes

Does the fire effect from cinderhulk scale with level? I'm just curious because I forgot smite one day and ended up buying sunfire caps. Suddenly my clears felt very fast, faster than they seem with cinderhulk.

Big LincolnSep 22, 20162 votes

iirc they dont scale as well as sunfire, or at least have it worse early

the problem with Cinderhulk is it's a late-game purchase on a class Riot balances for the mid-game. I think it should have more immediate impact and then taper off in value.

RalanrSep 22, 20162 votes

Especially since it offers only health and AoE. The lack of resistances kinda bothers me.

Big LincolnSep 22, 20161 votes

I would rather it be a damage supplement; I get tanky enough any game I build it. But it can't really be strong ATM because it's passive as opposed to something you have to work for.

I still contest that Runic Echoes is something most tank junglers should get. Just the addition of the strong base damage to your rotation makes clearing a breeze and gives you a great contribution to ganks. I might try it on Poppy later today.

RalanrSep 22, 20161 votes

But Poppy has one AP scaling and it's her W. The only benefit she'd get is the echo damage effect and increased movement speed. Beyond that it doesn't really benefit her.

Big LincolnSep 22, 20161 votes

it's not about the AP scaling, it's for the base damage and MS. RE doesn't scale well anyway; it's primarily base.

I don't build any AP on Sejuani besides Echoes and the occasional Abyssal and it works great. No reason RE+full tank Poppy wouldn't use it well, especially since she benefits so much from MS items, and Triforce is just too expensive to fit in her build most games.

RalanrSep 22, 20161 votes

Well tell me how it goes. I prefer her in the jungle and I have problem with going full tank there.

Big LincolnSep 23, 20161 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/437176a2ce0d3b50e170ac998424beca.png

it worked pretty well, haha

I skipped the components and just bought it outright after getting my jg upgrade. Very nice and noticeable damage boost, probably even better with Thunderlord's but I went SoA to make up for no cinderhulk

This didn't get to late game but my guess is you'd want to sell it after full build for something else unless the MS means a lot to you in that game

ErockandrollSep 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Does the fire effect from cinderhulk scale with level? I'm just curious because I forgot smite one day and ended up buying sunfire caps. Suddenly my clears felt very fast, faster than they seem with cinderhulk.

item 1409 7 (+2 per champion level) 100% bonus damage to monsters. item 3068 25 (+1 per champion level) 50% bonus damage to minions and monsters.

So the Damage range to Monsters for Cinderhulk is 18-86 and Sunfire is 39-64

Cinderhulk will have faster clear in the later stages, but sunfire is far more effective early on.

RalanrSep 22, 20162 votes

Huh. Ok.

Hmm, I feel that's too slow. Do tank junglers still clear camps in late game? Cause if not (since they'd probably have maxed SToA) then I can't see why cinderhulk is geared for late clears.

I guess it's better for dragon and Baron? But by then someone else on your team usually has enough damage to make killing them not too much of a problem.

It Hertz When IPSep 22, 20161 votes

Camp clears are also a good time later-game if your team's down, you have a few seconds to kill, and going for objectives would be too risky.

EndlessSorcererSep 22, 20161 votes

Sunfire scales from 26-43 and deals 50% bonus damage to monsters.

Cinderhulk scales from 9-43 and deals 100% bonus damage to monsters.

Earl EulrichSep 22, 20162 votes

yea, the most dangerous seju i faced this season actually went full ap...just oneshot the carry lategame. sadly much more viable than trying to "tank" lategame.

EndlessSorcererSep 22, 20161 votes

Honestly, the main issue with tanks this season seems to be the current mastery system.

There are many options in the trees (especially the keystones) which provide significant damage increases while there are few options for defensive bonuses.

I haven't really been having any issues with clear-speed after the first clear.

DracocrashSep 22, 20161 votes

Why do you think cinderhulk is weak? Cinderhulk zac and amumu are quite strong.

This has a low playrate but its quite busted as well : Cinderhulk Jax with Q max

it be lìke thatSep 22, 20161 votes

i'd say kha'zix weakness is how squishy he is early and he is also kinda ALLLLMOOOOOST feast or famine, like its possible, to comeback, but its pretty hard.