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Wait, I think I may have balanced Pyke...

mSticky··2 votes·1,043 views

The problem with Pyke is that Riot demands that he be a lethality-building support, which isn’t something that game’s economy conventionally encourages. What if Riot shifted their mindset about Pyke such that he was instead viewed as an Assassin who CAN support, but not as a Support Assassin? By this, I mean having Pyke join Swain, Vel’Koz, Sion and other champs who can solo lane or support, then balancing both builds evenly. This would mean:

  • Removing all lethality ratios from Pyke’s kit, replacing with them with regularly AD ratios/base values.
  • Returning Pyke’s waveclear (Q, E)
  • Nerfing the crap out of Pyke’s grey health and lowering Pyke’s base health to keep Assassin Pyke honest and Tank Pyke killable.
  • Removing (or heavily nerfing) his gold duplicating ult. For example, perhaps after getting a kill, Pyke opens a Kindred-like champ select menu (a “bounty menu”) and earns assist gold instead. Pyke could then select any champ (himself included) who would then get the remaining gold difference (Pyke’s stored kill gold minus the assist gold he already received). The total gold economy doesn’t change, but Pyke could choose whether he wanted to support an ally or take the gold for himself and carry.

In particular, the last suggestion would make Assassin Pyke default for solo lanes and Tank Pyke the default support, and that would be just fine. Support Pyke could be balanced around Pyke’s base damage and HP-Damage passive conversion ratio, and Assassin Pyke could be balanced around his scalings. Other versatile champs (J4, Malphite, etc.) have been balanced in the same way, so we know a healthy compromise is possible.

Bruiser Jarvan, Lethality Jarvan, and Tank Jarvan all have different builds and playstyles, yet each one is still iconically Jarvan. If Riot can accept that Pyke can be something aside from a full lethality mobi boots Support champ and still be Pyke, balancing him is intuitive and easy. Pyke’s stalker fantasy exists regardless of what items he builds, and if Riot is willing to compromise on their original vision for the champ, I think we can finally see him in a good spot.

13 Comments

Posui Gart3 votes

Removing all lethality ratios from Pyke’s kit, replacing with them with regularly AD ratios/base values.

Congratulations, you returned tank Pyke

Returning Pyke’s waveclear (Q, E)

That can now solo top or mid

Nerfing the crap out of Pyke’s grey health and lowering Pyke’s base health

Meanwhile lets kill support and assassin pyke builds so that tank build is the only one that works

Removing (or heavily nerfing) his gold duplicating ult

This would have hurt support Pykes, but, because of other changes, nobody plays Pyke support anyway

Tank Pyke the default support, and that would be just fine.

Its not. We already have enough tank supports, thats why Riot made an effort to kill his tank builds. He is supposed to be an assassin support, with high risk-high reward playstyle. Dont rework him into a 2nd Nautilus

Shahamut2 votes

Right now he is low risk high reward.

Honestly though, the only thing I actually hate about pyke is his ult...

Execute - aka goes through shielding Blink AoE Resets MAKES GOLD APPEAR OUT OF THIN AIR... and a lot of it.

If a team fight is close and pyke gets to start ulting, the gold swing is just massive... it's by far the most broken thing in his kit...

Posui Gart2 votes

Its a skillshot, so it should have a reward for hitting it. Chogath can almost 100-0 squishy champions with point-and-click ult while being tanky as hell, with the only downside being its range. That being said, +600 gold for every kill is somewhat too much, and a "skillshot" part is somewhat negated by Pyke himself having lots of CC. Perhaps binding coin worth to enemy bounty would be more fair(100g coins against normal 300g worth enemies, up to 400g against enemies with 1000 gold bounty) Also I would like Riot to remove that shitty mechanic that allows Pyke to get a reset AND gold if he fucked up and enemy died before the ult hit. Ok, he can get his reset and try again(like with Zed), he can also have it still teleport him to the point, but why is he getting 600 gold for his fail?

Shahamut1 votes

I mean, I thought a. Aoe execute that ignores shields was reward enough... I didnt think it needed resets a d broken economy

Posui Gart1 votes

The reset is there so you don't feel bad for using it at non-priority target. Without reset it would be just an aoe nuke. And for a generic aoe nuke to be an ultimate, it must be quite strong. Ziggs has enormous aoe and range, Evelynn 's R is an actual execute(more damage against low hp, A LOT more) and escape that also has quite huge AOE, Xerath has 5 shots of his ult with no need to hit previous ones for some sort of reset, and a 5k range.

mSticky1 votes

That’s right. Assassin Support Pyke will not be meta anymore, and the champ will finally be balance-able.

You’re thinking about it wrong. He would become a tank support and an assassin mid, just like how Gragas is a tank support and AP/AP bruiser mid/jungler. His primary role becomes assassin, not support, and he’s balanced as such. A “CC Assassin,” just like how Lissandra is a CC Mage. If you remember Tank Pyke, then you know support Pyke doesn’t need damage items to murder people with an ally nearby or turn team fights with his ultimate, so Support Pyke would be fine.

Riot has been trying to make him an “assassin support” for over a year now. The result is a world where he is permanently banned across all elos and, like Akali, constantly bouncing back forth between being buffs and nerfs that do little to affect his underlying issues.

Why does he need to have a high risk-high reward playstyle? In what part of his lore is that dictated as mandatory? Rakan is also a “Assassin Support” with an assassin playstyle, and what does he build? Redemption and bunch of tank items. Items don’t make a champ’s identity, especially in the support role.

Vi, Master Yi, Mundo, and J4 we’re all designed as solo laners, but have since moved into the jungle. Alistar and Leona were designed as full tanks, but became a subclass of “tanky engage” supports when the 2-1-2 Season 1 meta evolved into the Top-Jungle-Mid-Bot-Supp meta we have today. Quinn was designed as an ADC, but now has a home almost exclusively in top lane. Similarly, Nautilus and Blitz were designed for the top lane, but are now most commonly seen as supports. Volibear was designed for Top lane, but is now generally played as a jungler and a support. Swain was designed as a mid laner but is most often played as a support. Old Morde was supposed to be an AP bot laner (lol). There are so many examples (probably some ones I haven’t mentioned) of champs assuming primary roles that are different than what they were designed for, and there is no reason why Pyke can’t be just like them.

Posui Gart2 votes

If you remember Tank Pyke, then you know support Pyke doesn’t need damage items to murder people with an ally nearby or turn team fights with his ultimate, so Support Pyke would be fine.

And thats why everyone played tank Pyke only. Why build damage and die to a single mistake if you can build tank and not die while still having enough CC and damage? Riot specifically try to nerf "safe" builds and buff "risky" ones. And I agree with the direction itself, even if the methods are wrong

Riot has been trying to make him an “assassin support” for over a year now. The result is a world where he is permanently banned across all elos and, like Akali, constantly bouncing back forth between being buffs and nerfs that do little to affect his underlying issues.

If the alternative is tank Pyke only, I think i prefer his current state. At least he can be counterplayed and if he fucks up, he dies and loses the game.

Why does he need to have a high risk-high reward playstyle?

Because thats how some champions should work, especially assassins. There are enough low-risk supports.

Vi, Master Yi, Mundo, and J4 we’re all designed as solo laners, but have since moved into the jungle. Alistar and Leona were designed as full tanks, but became a subclass of “tanky engage” supports when the 2-1-2 Season 1 meta evolved into the Top-Jungle-Mid-Bot-Supp meta we have today. Quinn was designed as an ADC, but now has a home almost exclusively in top lane. Similarly, Nautilus and Blitz were designed for the top lane, but are now most commonly seen as supports. Volibear was designed for Top lane, but is now generally played as a jungler and a support. Swain was designed as a mid laner but is most often played as a support. Old Morde was supposed to be an AP bot laner (lol). There are so many examples (probably some ones I haven’t mentioned) of champs assuming primary roles that are different than what they were designed for, and there is no reason why Pyke can’t be just like them.

If a champion is designed for a certain role but is played somewhere else, its ok by itself. But if playing in that other role is problematic, it is nerfed. Problematic could be just plainly OP or just dumbed down no-counterplay gameplay. Thats how it worked with tank Ekko, tank Yi, tank Akali, toplane tank Victor and some others: tanky build straightly removed most of the champion skill checks and counterplay. For the same reason tank Pyke was nerfed. For the same reason Aftershock AP/AD scalings were nerfed etc.

mSticky1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9XXjKi1f,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-10-12T15:28:40.769+0000)

And thats why everyone played tank Pyke only. Why build damage and die to a single mistake if you can build tank and not die while still having enough CC and damage? Riot specifically try to nerf "safe" builds and buff "risky" ones. And I agree with the direction itself, even if the methods are wrong

I can’t say I agree with you here, not at all. The consistent nerfing of safe builds and buffing of risky ones has created the meta we have right now where “feast or famine” champs dominate mid and jungle (and top, but to a lesser extent). According to ProGuides, almost every S+ midlaner and half of the S tier junglers are all “all or nothing” champions with face rolling builds, and that’s not okay. Having viable safe builds and build transitions is what lets players adapt to the game as occurs around them, and the lack of meaningful options for many top champs is a noticeable weakness of this game compared to DOTA.

If the alternative is tank Pyke only, I think i prefer his current state. At least he can be counterplayed and if he fucks up, he dies and loses the game.

As a person who would like to play Pyke in ranked, having him permanently banned is certainly not preferable to playing him in any capacity.

Have you played as Pyke in lane? Have you played AGAINST Pyke in lane? Between grey health regen, Pyke’s tank-quality base stats, two mobility options and aftershock, the current Pyke can fuck up as much as he wants and won’t die unless you 100-0 him before he presses any of his “get out of jail free” buttons. A new tank pyke shouldn’t be nearly as durable as he was before, and a new assassin Pyke should pop faster than Rakan for how much regen he gets from grey health.

Because thats how some champions should work, especially assassins. There are enough low-risk supports.

Sure, if they build damage. Tank Rakan is relatively low risk, but doesn’t do a lot of damage or heal/shield for that much. I’m not saying that Pyke can’t be high risk if he builds for it, but he shouldn’t have to be to be useful.

If a champion is designed for a certain role but is played somewhere else, its ok by itself. But if playing in that other role is problematic, it is nerfed. Problematic could be just plainly OP or just dumbed down no-counterplay gameplay. Thats how it worked with tank Ekko, tank Yi, tank Akali, toplane tank Victor and some others: tanky build straightly removed most of the champion skill checks and counterplay. For the same reason tank Pyke was nerfed. For the same reason Aftershock AP/AD scalings were nerfed etc.

During the Tank Ekko days, Riot explicitly stated that they were okay with tanky variation builds as long there was “sufficient trade off” for the safety provided. I’m sure with some base stat and HP-Damage conversion nerfs Tank Pyke can be brought into that territory.

I’m clearly not going to convince you, but I appreciate the discussion regardless.

Pika Fox3 votes

As the first person already pointed out; this would just return tank pyke and remove all support play from his kit.

mSticky1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9XXjKi1f,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-10-12T14:09:18.830+0000)

As the first person already pointed out; this would just return tank pyke and remove all support play from his kit.

How does tank pyke “return” if there’s supposedly no support play in his kit? Do you really think people will play tank pyke mid?

But yes a nerfed tank pyke is 10x better than what we have right now. Tank Pyke would sneak up to you, hook you, and kill you with an ally; he’s not soloing your midlaner at 18 minutes with a targon’s and a duskblade. Tank Pyke was reliable and versatile - you could make the big play if you wanted to, but if you wanted to be a conventional support and peel for your carries you could that too. More importantly, it is a lot easier to balance support pyke but cutting his durability and mobility than it is to balance support assassin pyke by making him unplayable in every other possible position and hyper inflating his numbers such that, if he ever is playable anywhere but support, he’s busted.

Pika Fox2 votes

{quoted}

How does tank pyke “return” if there’s supposedly no support play in his kit? Do you really think people will play tank pyke mid?

But yes a nerfed tank pyke is 10x better than what we have right now. Tank Pyke would sneak up to you, hook you, and kill you with an ally; he’s not soloing your midlaner at 18 minutes with a targon’s and a duskblade. Tank Pyke was reliable and versatile - you could make the big play if you wanted to, but if you wanted to be a conventional support and peel for your carries you could that too. More importantly, it is a lot easier to balance support pyke but cutting his durability and mobility than it is to balance support assassin pyke by making him unplayable in every other possible position and hyper inflating his numbers such that, if he ever is playable anywhere but support, he’s busted.

Current pyke is less capable pf soloing someone than tank pyke ever was. Pyke has 0 damage outside his ult, and is way too squishy with too long CDs to kill 100>0. Hell always die first.

Unless hes fed to hell, in which case literally anyone could do the same better.

Malix Farwin1 votes

A lot of that i can deal with when it comes to pyke, what i cant deal with is how unbelievably safe he is as an Assasin

Jesi Oni1 votes

Pyke is the only real AD support in the game... Stop trying to turn him into assassin.

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