The range on her skills are OP dude. Her AA range included (yes there was a nerf but it still outrageous). Her ult has zero counterplay and when timed with her stun which is easily done results in pretty much an instant death.
Implement one of the suggestions I read on here: Make her throw tibbers rather than tibbers popping out of thin air. Similar to sejuani ult.
GreenLore2 votesOverall Annie is a rather outdated champ,which is probably why she doesn't have so much counterplay.
However there are many champs whose kits are a total mess currently,so i doubt that annie is high on the rework list.
Bears Dont Care1 votesThe range on her skills are OP dude. Her AA range included (yes there was a nerf but it still outrageous). Her ult has zero counterplay and when timed with her stun which is easily done results in pretty much an instant death.
Implement one of the suggestions I read on here: Make her throw tibbers rather than tibbers popping out of thin air. Similar to sejuani ult.
First... Sejuanni throws her ult because she has a gap closer on a low CD compared to Annie who relies entirely on Flash.
Second, what about compensation? Low mobility mage with low range. Or you can git gud, and stop whining about things that aren't a balancing issue. [slayer-jinx-catface]
Zair Umbras1 votesNo, Sej throws her ult because it's called balance, that thing Annie once upon a time actually had until they had buffed her ratios so her combo did another 30% of her AP.... Before, you'd get a big MR item like a Banshee's, Visage, or Abyssal and you'd at least have to force her to burn an ignite. Now she half lifes entire teams. Why did her ratios get buffed? Because Support Annie's bases were too big and they didn't want to nerf Mid Annie. She lost 80 base damage across the R+Q+W combo to gain 30% in her ratios. In just R+Q+W, she used to do 215%, now she does 245% of her AP with one of those abilities, her Q, being on a 4s CD and having 220 base, 80% scaling.
There's really no counterplay to Annie. People can say 'Oh, she's short ranged, she needs to do a lot!' Well, Akali does 190% in a combo so they nerfed her combo to be less reliable with her E no longer proc'ing her Q, that's on top of her E still not doing magic damage so it's 40% ratio is more like 20-30%. Akali has to be within 700 range of her target to kill it by pressing R. Annie has to be within about 890 for her R to land.
I mean, seriously. Syndra got GUTTED for doing what Annie does on longer CD's with higher mana costs while requiring prep time to drop some orbs ffs. Annie has to lose some reliability or some damage because a Q with 500 AP shouldn't be doing 600 damage on a 3s CD (5% from masteries, 20% from nomicon) which goes up to 750 if she has a Luden's.
Bears Dont Care1 votes[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9WeUA1hg,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T00:18:43.257+0000)
No, Sej throws her ult because it's called balance,
No, Sej throws her ult because when we look at her holistically and NOT isolate individual parts of her kit, it becomes balanced. If Sejuani's ult was instant like annie's it would be a balance problem
Annie's kit is balanced holistically.
that thing Annie once upon a time actually had until they had buffed her ratios so her combo did another 30% of her AP.... Before, you'd get a big MR item like a Banshee's, Visage, or Abyssal and you'd at least have to force her to burn an ignite. Now she half lifes entire teams. Why did her ratios get buffed? Because Support Annie's bases were too big and they didn't want to nerf Mid Annie. She lost 80 base damage across the R+Q+W combo to gain 30% in her ratios. In just R+Q+W, she used to do 215%, now she does 245% of her AP with one of those abilities, her Q, being on a 4s CD and having 220 base, 80% scaling.
Yes, because she needed it. As a mage who has no mobility, and has low range it was an absolute necessity to buff her damage. . If you have no mobility, you need range to be capable of playing safely and handling more mobile champs. If you don't have range, you need the damage to burst someone who jumps you before you die. The main reason mid annie lost popularity is because long range mages pushed her out. She became too reliant on flash ult as an initiation tool when they could poke her all day.
There's really no counterplay to Annie. People can say 'Oh, she's short ranged, she needs to do a lot!'
Correct. This is called balance. If you are weak in one area, you are strong in another
Well, Akali does 190% in a combo so they nerfed her combo to be less reliable with her E no longer proc'ing her Q, that's on top of her E still not doing magic damage so it's 40% ratio is more like 20-30%. Akali has to be within 700 range of her target to kill it by pressing R.
Except that is Akali who is a melee assassin with self healing capability, stealth, and reliable burst damage that doesn't require flash.
Annie has to be within about 890 for her R to land. Might be because she has no gap closer like Akali who can ult to an enemy minion thent o her target. Just saying.
You are isolating a single facet of Annie's kit and ignoring everything else. By default your argument is faulty.
I mean, seriously. Syndra got GUTTED for doing what Annie does on longer CD's with higher mana costs while requiring prep time to drop some orbs ffs. Annie has to lose some reliability or some damage because a Q with 500 AP shouldn't be doing 600 damage on a 3s CD (5% from masteries, 20% from nomicon) which goes up to 750 if she has a Luden's.
Probably because Syndra has instant cast spells, a long range stun/knockback, longer range in general, and a point and click ult that deals more damage instantly than Annie's off the bat?
Just saying, Annie is not Syndra. The nerfs for syndra are different reasons than Annie. Annie is balanced.
Zair Umbras1 votes[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9WeUA1hg,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T03:45:17.403+0000)
No, Sej throws her ult because when we look at her holistically and NOT isolate individual parts of her kit, it becomes balanced. If Sejuani's ult was instant like annie's it would be a balance problem
Annie's kit is balanced holistically.
Yes, because she needed it. As a mage who has no mobility, and has low range it was an absolute necessity to buff her damage. . If you have no mobility, you need range to be capable of playing safely and handling more mobile champs. If you don't have range, you need the damage to burst someone who jumps you before you die. The main reason mid annie lost popularity is because long range mages pushed her out. She became too reliant on flash ult as an initiation tool when they could poke her all day.
Correct. This is called balance. If you are weak in one area, you are strong in another
Except that is Akali who is a melee assassin with self healing capability, stealth, and reliable burst damage that doesn't require flash. Might be because she has no gap closer like Akali who can ult to an enemy minion thent o her target. Just saying.
You are isolating a single facet of Annie's kit and ignoring everything else. By default your argument is faulty.
Probably because Syndra has instant cast spells, a long range stun/knockback, longer range in general, and a point and click ult that deals more damage instantly than Annie's off the bat?
Just saying, Annie is not Syndra. The nerfs for syndra are different reasons than Annie. Annie is balanced.
It is not balanced to say 'X champ is short ranged, so they get to explode entire teams'. IT just doesn't work that. Even Morde, who has no CC and no movement speed, nothing, still needs to ramp up his Q, Nasus still has to farm his Q, Veigar has to farm with his Q and get Kills and Assists for the bonus AP, Sion has to farm for his W to give him enough health to make up for his abysmally low base health and armor (1780 health and 70 armor at max level. Long range AP's like Xerath have 1870+ health and 80+ armor. Even Ahri has over 80 base armor at level 18.). Every champion that gets good scaling HAS to farm it, typically make making their early games poor or giving them shorter ranges, making them lack in mobility... Annie has 87.2 base armor, 1804 health, low mana costs, 1184 mana (On par with high mana champs like Lux and is in the top 19 out of all the champions with mostly supports above her for level 18 mana and 23rd for starting mana with, again, 10 of those being supports.), and she has an incredibly reliable form of CC. Her bases are very high, likely to compensate for being short ranged as most shorter ranged champs do have high base stats.
Despite having good bases across the board, she also has some of the biggest ratios in the game. Since you like to say Akali's sustain is why she's allowed to be kept at bay, then we can look at Evelynn who has been crapped on by Riot over the last 3 seasons. Her burst was a 1 to 1 ratio E, 2% per 100 AP Max health AoE ult, and a .45x ratio on her Q with a 1.5s CD. Her R deserved the original reduction it had gotten to be 1% per 100 AP and the current health is definitely reasonable (Should have been given a minimum though, but eh), her E's base has been thrown around, and her Q has been nerfed repeatedly while also being buffed on random occasions. To make things worse, she was balanced around DFG, like many champs during the time of DFG. Her E was even changed to physical to make her AP builds never be able to scale into the late game properly again. Currently, she sits at 80 damage max on her Q with a max of 55% ratio when it maxed at 120 (Ratio makes up for it), W now costs mana.. because... Runeglaive..? That's what Riot said at least... because Runeglaive.... E did 135 base at max with a 1 to 1 ratio, still the same but now does PHYSICAL instead of magic, and her R, as I mentioned, is now a 25% current health with a 1% per 100 AP ratio when it was a 25% with a 2% per 100 AP ratio of Max health (Still a well deserved nerf).
You can't tell me 'Muhstealth' makes Evelynn's abysmally low level 1 stats, super short range, no dash of any kind, no hard CC, and hiiiiiiigh mana costs completely okay. If we balanced Eve the way we balance Annie, which is the way you seem to be okay with, her E should magic damage, her R should do of max health, and her Q should have a low mana cost, because then she'd do the same burst as Annie on a single target with about the same CD's and at a super short range. Her range would be the trade off. You don't see Twitch, Rengar, and Akali getting their damage nerfed because they can stealth, no... because you can buy a pink ward and drop it where you need it, just like you can against Evelynn, but, you know... 'Muhpermastealth' too stronk, amirite?
Bears Dont Care2 votes[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9WeUA1hg,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T04:38:55.292+0000)
It is not balanced to say 'X champ is short ranged, so they get to explode entire teams'. IT just doesn't work that. Even Morde, who has no CC and no movement speed, nothing, still needs to ramp up his Q, Nasus still has to farm his Q, Veigar has to farm with his Q and get Kills and Assists for the bonus AP, Sion has to farm for his W to give him enough health to make up for his abysmally low base health and armor (1780 health and 70 armor at max level. Long range AP's like Xerath have 1870+ health and 80+ armor. Even Ahri has over 80 base armor at level 18.). Every champion that gets good scaling HAS to farm it, typically make making their early games poor or giving them shorter ranges, making them lack in mobility... Annie has 87.2 base armor, 1804 health, low mana costs, 1184 mana (On par with high mana champs like Lux and is in the top 19 out of all the champions with mostly supports above her for level 18 mana and 23rd for starting mana with, again, 10 of those being supports.), and she has an incredibly reliable form of CC. Her bases are very high, likely to compensate for being short ranged as most shorter ranged champs do have high base stats.
It is indeed balanced for a champion with low range to be capable of exploding an entire team, it indeed does work that way. Otherwise, why are you using the champion? Let us use an appropriate comparison to Annie, Malzahar. I say appropriate because the champions you compare Annie to, are champions with either CC, MS increases, or have passives allowing them to infinitely scale. Such comparisons are entirely inaccurate because you continue to pick out parts of their kits rather than analyze them holistically as needed. This is the first fallacy of your argument and one you need to abandon Those champions who need to "ramp up" need to because their total damage capability is far superior to Annie's and their kits make it appropriate to ramp up to such a degree of damage.
On an ability to ability basis, the only ability Malzahar does not outperform Annie on is through her ultimate and that is only if the enemy stands in her ultimate long enough for it to outdamage Malzahar's. She has less range than Malzahar. Deals less damage than Malzahar especially on tanks whom Malzahar can shred easily. This is ignoring Malzahar's passive which provides extra damage on a target.
So...why would you pick Annie? If you lower her damage, or make her ultimate an easily telegraphed ability, you might as well just pick Malzahar whose Q is also telegraphed, but has much greater range, and has a much lower CD.
delete part
And what purpose does this entire paragraph serve besides providing unnecessary information? Get to the point of the conversation, I don't need you to list information readily available to those present.
You can't tell me 'Muhstealth' makes Evelynn's abysmally low level 1 stats, super short range, no dash of any kind, no hard CC, and hiiiiiiigh mana costs completely okay. If we balanced Eve the way we balance Annie, which is the way you seem to be okay with, her E should magic damage, her R should do of max health, and her Q should have a low mana cost, because then she'd do the same burst as Annie on a single target with about the same CD's and at a super short range. Her range would be the trade off. You don't see Twitch, Rengar, and Akali getting their damage nerfed because they can stealth, no... because you can buy a pink ward and drop it where you need it, just like you can against Evelynn, but, you know... 'Muhpermastealth' too stronk, amirite?
Actually, Evelynn is one of the champions that I argue has been treated in a grossly unfair manner. Many of her nerfs have been done to cater to the lowest common denominator. Individuals who refuse to alter the way they play to accomodate facing a champion with a different playstyle. This is perhaps the reason for the majority of "nerf this" threads. People refuse to change the way they play when facing a champion.
It is the basis for your argument right now.
Zair Umbras1 votesSee, you can't really use Malzahar since he's actually been balanced around the fact that he can't actually combo you if you buy a QSS. Combo-wise, he's easily got the most damage for shredding down a single target, but outside of his Q, it's all DPS. Cass is about the exact same. Malz can't press R and hit everyone on the enemy team and his Q and W are easy to stay away from since they're telegraphed, but when combined with CC like his R, all of a sudden he's taking just about anyone from 100-0 in no time at all regardless of if they're a tank or squishy.
If we were to compare Annie to something exactly like her, we wouldn't really find it. Annie holds a pretty large spot since there's no one even close to her. CC-wise? You've got Galio, Leona, Mu, Kennen, and others with AoE CC ultis. Unlike every other AoE CC though, Annie's is completely unavoidable without any sort of warning other than 'Does Annie have flash?'. Damage-wise, she has no comparisons for her range. In just 2 abilities, she does 225% of her AP, which doesn't like like a lot until you realize she does this as fast as Katarina because neither have any sort of cast times, but Kat has to put herself into actual risk to do her damage and people have to let her get off that ult to do comparable damage to Annie.
The closest thing you'll ever get to Annie is Syndra... and Syndra got pretty harshly gutted for being a lane bully... for doing EXACTLY what Annie does anywhere she goes.
Bears Dont Care1 votes[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9WeUA1hg,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T21:07:13.828+0000)
See, you can't really use Malzahar since he's actually been balanced around the fact that he can't actually combo you if you buy a QSS. Combo-wise, he's easily got the most damage for shredding down a single target, but outside of his Q, it's all DPS. Cass is about the exact same. Malz can't press R and hit everyone on the enemy team and his Q and W are easy to stay away from since they're telegraphed, but when combined with CC like his R, all of a sudden he's taking just about anyone from 100-0 in no time at all regardless of if they're a tank or squishy.
Actually I can, because we compare champions with similar roles to other champions with similar roles. It is non-sensical to compare Annie, a mid lane mage, to a champion such as Evelynn, a melee assassin or Sejuani, a tank jungler. Let alone Malzahar can still combo you, even with QSS as it cleanses the CC, not the damaging effect similar to Warwick's suppression skill. On top of this, QSS also works for Annie's stun and provides MR to survive her burst, so I fail to see why it is acceptable for you to bring up QSS on malzahar when it is just as valid against Annie whose range is lower.
If we were to compare Annie to something exactly like her, we wouldn't really find it. Annie holds a pretty large spot since there's no one even close to her. CC-wise? You've got Galio, Leona, Mu, Kennen, and others with AoE CC ultis. Unlike every other AoE CC though, Annie's is completely unavoidable without any sort of warning other than 'Does Annie have flash?'. Damage-wise, she has no comparisons for her range. In just 2 abilities, she does 225% of her AP, which doesn't like like a lot until you realize she does this as fast as Katarina because neither have any sort of cast times, but Kat has to put herself into actual risk to do her damage and people have to let her get off that ult to do comparable damage to Annie.
The point isn't an exact comparison, the point is a role comparison. You cannot compare champions of different roles to other champions because their kits are designed entirely differently. Btw you cannot avoid Galio's ult unless you flash out BEFORE he channels it. As soon as he pops it the effect is immediate and unlike Annie, you CANNOT cleanse the effect and avoid further burst damage.
Let alone suggesting Annie is not at any risk to perform her combo is foolish and ignorant. Her range is short, the mass majorty of champions can close the gap and burst her down including champions such as Talon or Pantheon or Lissandra o Malzahar. Look at champions such as Sejuani, why do you not complain when she QR"s your entire team? Or Amumu? Or Sion?
Many champions have methods of making their ultimates unavoidable or nearly unavoidable. Annie is no different, and for the way her kit is designed it is acceptable.
The closest thing you'll ever get to Annie is Syndra... and Syndra got pretty harshly gutted for being a lane bully... for doing EXACTLY what Annie does anywhere she goes.
Except this is false because Annie ISN'T a lane bully. Heimerdinger is a lane bully. Malzahar is a lane bully. Syndra is a lane bully.
Suggesting Annie is at all comparable to the three above is gross hyperbole not worth entertaining.
masterdragon4811 votesThe only thing that needs to change on Annie is something Riot claimed they were removing from the game when they reworked Veigar E (still don't get me started on veigar E); this was that aoe instant CC was overpowered.
And yet, annie has CONTINUED to exist with her ultimate despite that, and with no word from Riot on that ever changing (please link me if that is incorrect and Riot has commented on it). The suggestion to throw tibbers has been brought up numerous times but again, without any action/word from Riot, we have no idea why they are making the decision that they are making with her.
Casri1 votesAnnie is one of the few champions (along with Lissandra) who is able to keep the likes of Zed, Yasuo, Fizz, Leblanc etc in check. She may be annoying to play against, but strong, reliable CC which works even vs extreme mobility is important in League to prevent mobility champions from completely dominating.
Just try playing someone who outranges her i.e. most mage midlaners, or consider running cleanse and just kill her before she can full combo.
Asayake 5150glow1 votes[{quoted}](name=da plazma pika,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9WeUA1hg,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-09T02:02:53.544+0000)
I hope you understand.
