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Magic VS Physical itemization, some thoughts about the issue.

Sonic Adventure··7 votes·2,922 views

Hi everyone, I'm a mage main, currently D5.

I saw this post. I'm glad that there's being awareness of how building against AP is much easier, even if you're not tank. However I'm concerned about people thinking that another AP + Armor item would make a big difference. Unless this item had some sort of new passive, I don't think it'd be much of a solution:

The thing is that AD champions will always be favored in a "itemization" fight.

  • If a Xin survives a Diana burst, she's done.
  • If a Diana survives a Xin burst, he just has to autoattack for a couple more seconds. Same thing with most AD champions, once both parties survive each other's "combo", the AD will always win afterwards.

Not only that, the other issue is that besides Armor or MR, all the items that give Health, will be counter AP champions a lot more than AD for the same reason. Even if you don't get MR and you're an champion like Irelia or Jax, just building Sterak's + Titanic Hydra, that'll basically be more than enough to survive any Lux or Syndra combo, and then you just autoattack them.

  • Basically me, as a mage main, if you're the enemy, your comp can be Full AD and I won't be able to punish you through itemization. Zhonya's is an item I would get anyway. Even getting Tabi's will not be effective, I'll just end up losing a lot of damage. Not to even mention how useless is any kind of armor against a Yasuo with IE and conqueror, or a Yi.

  • However, if a team has 4 AP (note: I'm not even saying Full AP team), they're giving the enemies incredible effective item choices. Doesn't matter if they don't have a single tank, or if you say "just peel for the adc". Very little you'll be able to do as a mage against the Wukong, Zed, Talon with Maw-Scimitar that will just lick the scratches, dive your adc and kill everyone else.

Not to mention if they happen to have a Mundo with Spirit Visage + Adaptative Helm. Doesn't matter if your Nidalee got fed early game. Tell me what she will be able to do to stop him from walking straight to your ADC as if he was killing some raptors.

I can't tell how many games I have won against 4 ap team comps that we were worse players, losing hard early-mid and just had to build some items to shut them down and comeback with little effort.

Last but not least, Void staff won't make a huge difference. They build a couple MR items + some HP, they'll still survive your combo easily.

Anyway, just felt like leaving some thoughts here. Have a nice weekend everyone,

24 Comments

Jamaree1 votes

To be fair, Diana isn't in a good spot right now. I never thought mages were supposed to shred as hard as AD champions anyway, hell back in the day, there was constantly melee champion QQ about how it wasn't worth it to play melee champions because they did so little compared to mages. In turn, mages get more utility to their kit that ADs don't have. Like Malzahar, sure, his DPS isn't going to be as high as an end game ADC, but point and click suppress ain't nothing to sleep on, or Zyra with her team wide knock up, or an Orianna hard CCing an entire team, things like that. This is just me, but I don't think it would be fair if mages got to do the damage of someone who has to be melee and put themselves in harm's way to do their damage compared to someone who can hard CC you from out of range while also blowing you up and stopping you from approach, hence why I think Diana is in a bad spot right now.

Sonic Adventure1 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, Diana isn't in a good spot right now. I never thought mages were supposed to shred as hard as AD champions anyway, hell back in the day, there was constantly melee champion QQ about how it wasn't worth it to play melee champions because they did so little compared to mages. In turn, mages get more utility to their kit that ADs don't have. Like Malzahar, sure, his DPS isn't going to be as high as an end game ADC, but point and click suppress ain't nothing to sleep on, or Zyra with her team wide knock up, or an Orianna hard CCing an entire team, things like that. This is just me, but I don't think it would be fair if mages got to do the damage of someone who has to be melee and put themselves in harm's way to do their damage compared to someone who can hard CC you from out of range while also blowing you up and stopping you from approach, hence why I think Diana is in a bad spot right now.

I only mentioned Diana as an example. Let me address your point about mages having more utility, seems fair, but let's see:

  • You mention the Zyra having a wide knockup. Wukong can do the same in a very reliable way, and enemies have itemization options against this as I describe above. Kayn, Camille, J4, Lee, Yasuo, are other examples of champs that can deliver extreme amounts of utility and hard cc while still delivering physical dmg with a lot less counterplay.

  • In a 1v1 scenario, Malzahar can't do much after the enemy survives the full combo with the many MR options. In teamfight is useful indeed but risky for Malz as well and the impact relies on the other AD allies if the enemy has MR as well.

I agree with your premise, but my experience is that those MR items allow you to not even have to dodge that Combo + CC from a mage. I wish the items gave you protection based on some skill, and not just see these assasins changing the skill matchup to a stat one.

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Keytar Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9WElNyYE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-06-22T07:17:24.516+0000)

I only mentioned Diana as an example. Let me address your point about mages having more utility, seems fair, but let's see:

  • You mention the Zyra having a wide knockup. Wukong can do the same in a very reliable way, and enemies have itemization options against this as I describe above. Kayn, Camille, J4, Lee, Yasuo, are other examples of champs that can deliver extreme amounts of utility and hard cc while still delivering physical dmg with a lot less counterplay.

You also have to factor that all of those champions have to put themselves in harm's way, deep into their enemies backline to be at their most useful.

  • In a 1v1 scenario, Malzahar can't do much after the enemy survives the full combo with the many MR options. In teamfight is useful indeed but risky for Malz as well and the impact relies on the other AD allies if the enemy has MR as well.

That is just though, don't discount the teamfight.

I agree with your premise, but my experience is that those MR items allow you to not even have to dodge that Combo + CC from a mage. I wish the items gave you protection based on some skill, and not just see these assasins changing the skill matchup to a stat one.

So like...Zhonya?

Sonic Adventure1 votes

{quoted}

You also have to factor that all of those champions have to put themselves in harm's way, deep into their enemies backline to be at their most useful.

That is just though, don't discount the teamfight.

So like...Zhonya?

Zyra's ult casting range is short. If you want to land a good ult, you put yourself in a very risky position, and you're most likely going to die just so your team wins teamfight. Wu with Maw, a Scimitar and his passive can ult 2-3 mages and he'll 100% survive. And Zyra doesn't have dashes, stealths like Wukong, or -as relevant- good defensive itemization to survive. Yes Zhonya's, that's all and it's good, but also a self cc, and the only option.

And yes, that's what I'm saying, I wish the MR items, not the Armor ones, were more based on skill like Zhonya's, not just a big shield from Maw that allows you to eat a mage combo without dodging and survive = )

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Keytar Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9WElNyYE,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-22T09:20:31.890+0000)

Zyra's ult casting range is short. If you want to land a good ult, you put yourself in a very risky position, and you're most likely going to die just so your team wins teamfight.

As opposed to LITERALLY on top of people though, still farther.

Wu with Maw, a Scimitar and his passive can ult 2-3 mages and he'll 100% survive.

Yeah, then at that point the AD of your team will rip him in two.

And Zyra doesn't have dashes, stealths like Wukong, or -as relevant- good defensive itemization to survive. Yes Zhonya's, that's all and it's good, but also a self cc, and the only option.

And Wukong doesn't have the safety of getting to cast at range like Zyra does.

And yes, that's what I'm saying, I wish the MR items, not the Armor ones, were more based on skill like Zhonya's, not just a big shield from Maw that allows you to eat a mage combo without dodging and survive = )

Ohhhhhhh, so like the spell shield on item 3814

Sonic Adventure1 votes

{quoted}

As opposed to LITERALLY on top of people though, still farther.

Yeah, then at that point the AD of your team will rip him in two.

And Wukong doesn't have the safety of getting to cast at range like Zyra does.

Ohhhhhhh, so like the spell shield on item 3814

Yeah exactly, except, that's not even part of the numerous MR items, so if anything is an extra defense for AD users against mages -though it blocks physical too- instead of "replacing" the official ones.

Jamaree1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Keytar Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9WElNyYE,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-22T09:30:33.205+0000)

Yeah exactly, except, that's not even part of the numerous MR items, so if anything is an extra defense for AD users against mages -though it blocks physical too- instead of "replacing" the official ones.

Just using it as an example really.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Like Malzahar, sure, his DPS isn't going to be as high as an end game ADC, but point and click suppress ain't nothing to sleep on

In a 1v1 scenario, Malzahar can't do much after the enemy survives the full combo with the many MR options. In teamfight is useful indeed but risky for Malz as well and the impact relies on the other AD allies if the enemy has MR as well.

That is just though, don't discount the teamfight.

Just a quick one regarding Malzahar: 1v1 Malzahar can do very little (his burst has been nerfed to nothingness until late game (3-4 items) which doesn't really happen anymore xD). Teamfighting him having a suppress might seem like an auto win, but what few people realise/take into account is the negatives of Malzahar's ult specifically. It also suppresses HIM, it's damage is BAD, it's short range, and he is STILL a squishy mage. Ulting as a malz in a teamfight is more dangerous for him then it is the person he is ulting a lot of the time.

What you are thinking of (and where Malz ult really SHINES) is the "pick". That guy that face checks a bush with Malz AND a damage dealer (normally an assassin/bruiser/diver/ADC) hiding in it. Even if they're 2 people, malz and his teammate can quickly deal with one and then look to 2v1 the other though Malz will often die if the other one is bursty lol. But while this is makes some awesome opportunities for objectives etc, it means the majority of the game he is NOT in his element. Riot have spent a lot of time balancing his kit around his ult when in truth they should have just changed his ult and giving him CC elsewhere.

Final point regarding Malz; he was designed to counter melee hypercarries and be counter by other mages. He's always done this, until the nerfs from riot made his damage negligible. At that point the midlane meta changed massively to assassins and Yasuo, all of whom could now beat him. So who did people look too to fight them? Top laners. Most mages became unviable, as did the mage specific counters (kassadin/galio etc). I'm not saying the changes to Malzahar were the ONLY reason for the massive shift in meta, but I don't think people should discount it having a lot to do with it either.

Tesladin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Keytar Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9WElNyYE,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-22T06:39:05.805+0000)

  • Basically me, as a mage main, if you're the enemy, your comp can be Full AD and I won't be able to punish you through itemization. Zhonya's is an item I would get anyway. Even getting Tabi's will not be effective, I'll just end up losing a lot of damage. Not to even mention how useless is any kind of armor against a Yasuo with IE and conqueror, or a Yi.

That's great because you have champions with 2 different types of builds:

  1. Whose itemization depends on the enemy composition
  2. Whose doesn't

That's variety and nothing to complain about I think

Sonic Adventure1 votes

{quoted}

That's great because you have champions with 2 different types of builds:

  1. Whose itemization depends on the enemy composition
  2. Whose doesn't

That's variety and nothing to complain about I think

We're precisely talking about the lack of variety in options when the enemy composition is mainly AD. Being able to punish AP comps with a few items, can arguably be a good thing (like someone winning from knowledge even if mechanics are worse) but it's not positive, but unfair, if the same doesn't apply for AD comps. The game should allow you to reward you for your good itemization decision in all games, not just when you're against AP.

Tesladin2 votes

Yes, you are right that it's a lack of variety on a lower level

But at a higher level, the unfairness here serves as variety, because it's complemented by the opposite in a different situation (e.g if you were playing a different champion). (all variety is inherently unfair/ness)

Hence, like this the total variety is higher

Sonic Adventure1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, you are right that it's a lack of variety on a lower level

But at a higher level, the unfairness here serves as variety, because it's complemented by the opposite in a different situation (e.g if you were playing a different champion). (all variety is inherently unfair/ness)

Hence, like this the total variety is higher

Variety in people's champion pools doesn't affect variety in actual games at all. If everyone was a one trick, you wouldn't know because you get different people each time.

I genuinely fail to see how this is anywhere close to a positive balance. I can't control my champ pick if I'm first pick, and then my team gets 4 ap against Mundo, Kayn, Xin, etc. At this point you don't control the champion, so the game should give you some options to get some advantage from being wise and strategic. There's nothing negative in this existing, since you can't control the champion then. So there can only be more variety in these frequent scenarios.

It doesn't mean people will one trick more, and even so, that only means that all champions will be more viable, so even more variety and possibilities.

Tesladin1 votes

There's a tota of 10 champions in the game at a time, not just yours, and one usually plays dozens of different champions over the course of time, not just one. If those different champions play differently (on every level), that's a greater variety in the big picture, not in the microcosm of a single match

Sonic Adventure1 votes

{quoted}

There's a tota of 10 champions in the game at a time, not just yours, and one usually plays dozens of different champions over the course of time, not just one. If those different champions play differently (on every level), that's a greater variety in the big picture, not in the microcosm of a single match

I don't see how that addressed my points. Simple math, if everyone played 1 game a year with every champion, games would have the same variety as if everyone were distributed one champion each equally and just played with them. Reducing itemization possibilities can never equal greater -relevant- variety. Premise is, game doesn't properly reward strategical thinking against AD regarding items, it's as simple as that.

Tesladin1 votes

Game rewards strategical thinking against AP, but not against AD = that is variety

Sonic Adventure1 votes

{quoted}

Game rewards strategical thinking against AP, but not against AD = that is variety

All due respect that's the witless thing I've read in a long time. It's the same as saying "AD champions can buy 100 items but AP champions only 5 = Variety". If you're not trolling, I sincerely hope you realize about this faulty thinking at some point, thanks for your comments.

Tesladin1 votes

No, that is correct, it does increase variety The only problem with that is that it simultaneously curbs variety as well (again, only on a lower/micro level), and what you brought is an extreme and a very bad example. It is possible to balance it somewhere in the middle.

Sonic Adventure1 votes

{quoted}

No, that is correct, it does increase variety The only problem with that is that it simultaneously curbs variety as well, and what you brought is an extreme and a very bad example. It is possible to balance it somewhere in the middle.

I can't express my disbelief about how you're still not seeing it. It increases a completely irrelevant variety that if anything is unfair. You can alter / generate that pointless variety by just making random changes like have every champion have different starting gold.

There's nothing positive or an actual strong reason to have a portion of the games not get rewarded for strategical thinking. It doesn't matter that the example is extreme in that way, that's the whole point of extrapolating things, and it's not even that far apart.

You, quite literally, said that game rewarding strategical thinking sometimes, but not always ,is variety, in any good way. It's like saying that the game only rewarding you sometimes for good positioning, good csing, or good map awareness, brings any sort of relevant variety.

If we only see 15 champions being played because "Some champions are very OP but some champions are not = variety", who even cares if that's any sort of philosophical, intrinsic variety if it's going to actually make games much less varied in actual relevant ways? That's the same situation about how we'd see games with a lot less variety in items. It's the same exact thing even if it's not as obvious level as champions. Nothing valuable about that like, at all.

Tesladin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Keytar Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9WElNyYE,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-25T07:52:04.168+0000)

It's like saying that the game only rewarding you sometimes for good positioning, good csing, or good map awareness, brings any sort of relevant variety.

Yes it does, grossly

[{quoted}](name=Keytar Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9WElNyYE,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-25T07:52:04.168+0000)

If we only see 15 champions being played because "Some champions are very OP but some champions are not = variety", who even cares if that's any sort of philosophical, intrinsic variety if it's going to actually make games much less varied in actual relevant ways? That's the same situation about how we'd see games with a lot less variety in items. It's the same exact thing even if it's not as obvious level as champions. Nothing valuable about that like, at all.

I think there is, that's the beginning of some of the most potent variety or diversity that can be introduced into the game, although a little far fetched

What would be good is seeing 15 champions who are utterly meta (cookie cutter champions), and another 35 somewhere between and the rest require very good coordination, strategy, discipline or skill to play to deserving effect or are situational

Leverette2 votes

If this were a matter of linguistics then you'd have a point. Otherwise it's nothing but disingenuous wordplay designed to fool idiots.

You're arguing that a lack of incentive to adapt to circumstance is somehow increasing variety, even though that is synonymous with the intent to have people build the same build every game?

Why are you so blatantly dishonest?

Sonic Adventure1 votes

{quoted}

If this were a matter of linguistics then you'd have a point. Otherwise it's nothing but disingenuous wordplay designed to fool idiots.

You're arguing that a lack of incentive to adapt to circumstance is somehow increasing variety, even though that is synonymous with the intent to have people build the same build every game?

Why are you so blatantly dishonest?

^

THANK YOU

Leverette2 votes

I'm not really sure how to respond to this because it sounds like logic that came from a completely different reality. Giving AP characters the shaft doesn't increase variety, it decreases variety by making you see AP characters less often and AD characters more often. This means you're seeing less variety in champions played. Because they are played less, it also makes MR items less relevant and thus further stagnates itemization diversity, so item variety is hindered as well. Also your example of playing a different champion basically just means "Play AD characters instead of AP characters" so it really doesn't sound like you have a very fair opinion on the matter... which is pretty much sealed when you try to justify blatant unfairness just for its own sake.

Honestly, how did you get that upvote?

Sasogwa1 votes

What really bothers me more than that, is that full AD comps simply can't be punished. Stacking armor is a thing of the past and is worthless now. Not only can you easily get fucktons of % shred/pen with last whisper and black cleaver, now you also have true damage to top it off. A crit build doesn't care about how much armor you have, neither does a conqueror user. That's kind of unhealthy. Before if you were against a full AD comp you could hope to scale, get your armor and win because their damage would fall off against unidimensional resistance build. This is no longer the case at all, and it's rather disgusting.

Sonic Adventure2 votes

{quoted}

What really bothers me more than that, is that full AD comps simply can't be punished. Stacking armor is a thing of the past and is worthless now. Not only can you easily get fucktons of % shred/pen with last whisper and black cleaver, now you also have true damage to top it off. A crit build doesn't care about how much armor you have, neither does a conqueror user. That's kind of unhealthy. Before if you were against a full AD comp you could hope to scale, get your armor and win because their damage would fall off against unidimensional resistance build. This is no longer the case at all, and it's rather disgusting.

I agree friend. I think champions that can be tanks or dmg, like WW, will still prefer to stack armor than damage against a full AD comp, and he'll be able to punish, a little (mostly the ones not having conqueror or IE builds).

The real bummer for me is when most characters and especially AP ones, can't even punish full AD the TINIEST BIT because even buying Ninja Tabis will end up making you die more from losing so much damage and not being able to kill them even when you get the initiation, which is your only hope.

But yeah you're right, the problem is even bigger. Thanks for the comment,

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