Why is itemization in this game so bad?

Morgana Ultima · 2018-07-26T01:16:15.944Z

I really feel like itemization is weak in this game. When I play Morgana I build the same damn items every single game. The order might change depending on the matchup, but its the same core items every single time. If I go play dota 2 as say Invoker the items I rush will depend on the team comp and matchups. The items are powerful in that game so if you need mobility you can get an item that gives you a huge teleport. if you need CC you can get an item that lets you turn shit into a pig/sheep so they can't cast. Every game is different. If every single Zed is going to take electrocute, and build duskblade then why not just put those things into his kit and remove the items and runes entirely? It's almost as if the concept of item builds and rune choices are really just an illusion. It is this lack of choice which creates this cancerous meta with the same brain dead play over and over and over and over. If there were more serious itemization choices then you could out think your opponent with your build. Hour glass is an absolutely amazing item for that reason. Generic item that gives +AP and some other crap is not. Flash is not a choice. Ignite is not a choice (because teleport too op or some shit must nerf) Your runes are really not choices. Wanna guess which inspiration rune I have to take every single game because of this current meta? Hint: its a stopwatch. Surprise! Look at how clever and thoughtful I am. Right now we have several brain dead easy champions in the game entirely because their first item every single game without any thought or intelligence is duskblade. Zed. Wukong. Talon. Rengar. Khazix. Nocturne. All have kits that attempt to one shot people, and with duskblade it is completely possible. So what does that do to mages? Every single game: Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass,Hourglass I played Morgana support earlier. I was versus a high sustain champ and I really wanted to build morello . Sorry, gotta finish this hour glass first because everyone in the game can 1 hit kill me otherwise. So because one item is obscenely overpowered every other champion in the game now has to adapt their build to survive it. Then Riot is like, "SEE THERE IS COUNTER PLAY IN THE GAME." No there isn't you monkey. No choice is ever actually being made here.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 27, 20183 votes

Thanks for the response.

IMO, a good way to strike a middle ground would be to have a mix of both 'stat sticks' as they are now and active items. The active items (in the long run) would have better abilities and shine far brighter than stat sticks could while players who are overwhelmed can stick to the stat-items.

I think a good comparison is in WoW talent trees: Usually the additional ability/more complex rotation awards you more DPS. However, the passive is often serviceable at the cost of some lower DPS. Allows new players to get a feel for their spec of choice while mythic+ players will go for the complex, rewarding rotation.

rastarogueJul 27, 20182 votes

I'd probably push back on this. It's honestly one of the reasons I've been moving away from supports for while now. Having to manage 4 abilities, a passive, track abilities from opponents in lane, as well as trying to predict jungle pathing, left me with little brain power to direct towards managing item CDs and passives.

If the fact that I can't manage all those things and use items well means that I am basically forced into being less powerful by using stat stick items instead of the active ones you mention I would stop playing.

From a personal perspective why I play league instead of Dota is for the item simplicity. I play because the ease of use with the items let's me focus on the more interesting (from my perspective) part of the game which is playing my champion and their abilities.

There is still depth in the item choice, there are some champions who can build multiple builds and do fine, and defensive itemization does has depth to it, it's just mostly ignored because it's less flashy.

If league changes to be more like Dota on the item front, I'd say goodbye to the game.

Gramps69Jul 27, 20181 votes

You mean let's you focus more on your keystone, right?

MogarlJul 27, 20183 votes

I think you are extremely underestimating how quickly the bulk of the player base will optimize for using the active items. Ultimately relegating all of those stat based items to the realm of noobtrap. W

WoW talent trees are probably not the best example either, I would bet my ass those are optimized to hell and back. A "serious" raid group would expect you to be using the 1 or 2 optimal rotations because the other ones are for beginners. That's ok in a PvE game where less optimal numbers don't really have a negative effect (although comparing your damage to someone else's and not understanding what you did wrong feels bad).

In a PvP game it becomes the difference between being in Bronze 5 or being literally anywhere else over time.

That's honestly the best case as well imo. The other direction is that you need to be so optimized in their precise uses that they're only used in the top 10% of players or when a champion uses one as a core item because of absurd synergy.

I think giving every class a couple different items that they could choose from to get a bit of this effect sounds good, but then you realize that Riot has tried doing that.

item 3046 item 3094 item 3087 item 3085

item 3030 item 3146 item 3152

item 3003 item 3030 item 3285

item 3715 item 3706 + the removed 2

Have any of these really succeeded? Or have they all been either optimized onto specific champions, generalized to every champion, or relegated to useless trash?

Secondary thoughts edit: You could claim that these effects just weren't potent enough, but is the bigger risk really worth taking when the smaller one has essentially failed multiple times?

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 27, 20183 votes

See, the irony here is that we've had this happen before: Deathfire Grasp.

In case you werne't around, DFG was an absurdly powerful item. Aether Wisp + NLR. The active did a 15% max HP nuke and increased magic damage they took for like...10 seconds or something.

Riot released the statistics on the item. You know how many people actually used this item's active for how busted it was?

Not 10%. Not 5% ~~Less than 1% used the active.~~

EDIT: I was incorrect slightly. According to Riot the usage rate of DFG's active was around 1% with a small margin of error pushing it between just over/under 1%. However, there's also an interesting stat here that Veigar's winrate went up after DFG's removal...because nobody used the active.

And this item was around from Season 0 to Season 5. So no. I don't think the playerbase would readily adapt to it. At least not the majority would.

For the WoW example: They really don't care, actually. I've raided pretty high back in the day (Heroic 25 Wrath was my prime but I've done someodd raiding in other expacs) and the rotation didn't matter. What did matter was doing the most DPS you could. See, the thing is that they don't see you doing the rotation, they just see the numbers you're pulling. So if you're doing 1.5k with the complex rotation and 1.75k with the simple rotation, they'll want you to use the simple rotation. The only place where this truly matters is in the top 0.01% of raid guilds who need absolute max DPS. AKA: Pros only.

Have any of these really succeeded? Or have they all been either optimized onto specific champions, generalized to every champion, or relegated to useless trash?

Those examples are actually bad ones yet there are also legitimate tech options.

For the zeal set, yes, people swap and pick a variety depending on the meta and champion changes. The issue is that the Zeal set can stack, meaning you're rarely making a "choice".

The hextech set is arguably the best example as people pick a little of everything. GPL could use a buff but otherwise, there's purpose for all of them.

The second mage set is ok. They tend to see usual play on both Ludens and AA with the choice often varying based on meta and champ. Again, GPL could use a buff.

And smite items were never a good example. The ability to get more wards was absurdly powerful. Removing that and you have the smite that provides an immense buff to dps/durability. The important thing here is that the choices should be equal. The smite items were never equal in terms of power.

But the real problem, again, falls back to stats: Why would I care about Protobelt? The STATS on it aren't as good as the STATS on, say, Ludens. So I don't get it, even though protobelt's active could arguably be better. The same situation befalls other items: Stats are king and you need bigger numbers. Hence why I said the stats of the game need an overhaul to be less gold efficient or on-par with actives at BEST.

MogarlJul 27, 20181 votes

Riot released the statistics on the item. You know how many people actually used this item's active for how busted it was?

Not 10%. Not 5% Less than 1% used the active.

And this item was around from Season 0 to Season 5. So no. I don't think the playerbase would readily adapt to it. At least not the majority would.

I can't take you're word on this because I was around at the time. I know that 4 out of 5 Ahris, Leblancs and Veigars would use it every time it was up to 100 - 0 someone. You also essentially imply that no one outside of diamond ever used the active. Your less than 1% explanation is impossible. DFG had become a ubiquitous item for anyone who did magic damage and got in range to use the active when it was, and your going to have to show me Riot's stats on it to convince me otherwise.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 28, 20182 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/57nejn/1_of_people_who_bought_dfg_ever_used_the_active/?st=jk4nthp7&sh=4d10086d

Sorry, was incorrect. Wasn't less than 1%. It was, however, roughly 1% with some margin of error. Directly from Riot.

MogarlJul 28, 20181 votes

Well, fuck. That is actually really surprising. I guess I just remember the ones that used it and that's all that stuck with me. Thanks for the source.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 28, 20181 votes

Don't feel bad. Honestly it was shocking when I first heard it too and made me do a double take.

DeathBurstJul 28, 20181 votes

Riot released the statistics on the item. You know how many people actually used this item's active for how busted it was?

Not 10%. Not 5% Less than 1% used the active.

Would you be able to find back the link for the original source, pretty please? :)

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 28, 20181 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/57nejn/1_of_people_who_bought_dfg_ever_used_the_active/?st=jk4nthp7&sh=4d10086d

DeathBurstJul 28, 20181 votes

Thanks :)

beanyJul 27, 20182 votes

I would say it isn't worth, part of the reason dota 2 struggles with gaining new players (experiencing a significant drop from its peak that can't be solely explained by player ebb and flow) is how complex the itemisation is among its other systems, more stats frankly is a feel good point that unique passives don't have.

AtaxiChaosJul 27, 20181 votes

Another thing to consider, aside from the value of raw stats, is just how much itemization is balanced between proactive and reactive items and the player satisfaction that comes with completing them.

Currently, most reactive items don't feel like a satisfying buy. Quicksilver Sash, Executioner's Calling, and Last Whisper aren't things you buy because you want to, but because you need to. Sure, they build into decent items later but their upfront satisfaction can't hold up to the power fantasy of spending that amount on a BF Sword, Pickaxe, or Vampiric Scepter.

On the other hand, over in AP land, things are a bit different, where things like Liandry's Torment and Morellonomicon exist. While they have passives clearly meant to act as counterplay, they're more often bought for a different reason. Liandry's isn't being bought primarily to shred tanks, it's bought because most of the champions that use it have a DoT effect that synergizes with it. Similarly, sure Morellonomicon has Grievous Wounds, but who cares about that when you're just buying that Oblivion Orb for its sweet MPen?

So, on the AD side, we have reactive items that have little to no satisfaction when built that don't build into core items for their users, but on the AP side, there are proactive items with upfront satisfaction that finish as core items with reactive passives - which players actually want to buy.

And that's not even geting started on tank items...

Linna ExcelJul 27, 20182 votes

As a former Guild Wars 1 player, I kind of miss the ability to customize the skills you are bringing. When I first game to League it was a bit odd to half only half the skills I was used to and no ability to change them out (summoners aside) or get new ones.

Item actives never really solved that itch and to be honest, except for the tiamat items, I tend to forget about them because they are on such a long CD.

DanjengJul 27, 20181 votes

Praise you Maple Nectar for taking time to communicate with Boards. May your syrupy goodness bless these forums. But yeah, I would like some more defensive mage items besides zhonyas and banshees and zhonyas and banshees.

SkyroarJul 27, 20181 votes

I started to play dota 2 recently, and I agree that game has more exciting itemnization. Janna's Q on a item? A staff that adds entire new abilities to your heroes? Clones that you can summon to bait your enemy? Higher stats at the cost of losing health over second?

That being said, I was also once a noob LoL player, and at the time, I hated item actives (never bought Deathfire Grasp for that reason, always forgot to use it or required twitch reflexes to use so many skills so quickly). On the other side, picking the old GLP on Aurelion Sol was always fun, because its active complemented him so nicely, and because Sol only has 3 combat skills, so it never felt overwhelming (that's the case for many dota heroes).

I think a good compromise would be to make LoL's items with stronger passives instead of adding (many) new actives, and to make sure that those passives are clearly comunicated and intuitive, so that complexity creep does not shoots off the roof.

For example: If you're buying Stattik Shiv, shouldn't the lightning bolt be the most satisfying thing about it? Definitely. (Oh how much I miss Shiv Yasuo, with tornados that shoot lightning bolts, before the generic stat-stick phantom dancer took its place). Yet, that passive has been getting nerfed because "ADCs can clear waves too fast". Wait, isn't that the point of a massive, AoE lightning blast? isn't that the reason you would want to buy it in the first place? Maybe the problem was on the fact that ADCs had no other item to compete with it, so they were all forced to buy wave clear items because they were the most viable first option? Maybe melee users deserved to have a stronger lightning effect (for the same reason they deserved to have Hydra items)? Regardless, the effect was nerfed, and is not as exciting as before.

Another example: Sunfire Cape. I always loved the thematic fantasy behind it. When I was a noob Shyvana player 3-4 years ago, I ALWAYS wanted to pick that item because it felt so fitting and perfect to her, even when it was not viable. But truth is, Sunfire's damage is low enough to make it more appropriate to tanks and to farming than to my agressive fire-themed diver. AND that passive was nerfed because if was too (passively) strong on tanks. Sometimes I wonder: if it was an active with a stronger effect for a limited duration, wouldn't that make it more exciting? Or, if it were to remain a passive, what if it had a windowed duration? (Say: triggers when you attack or get attacked at melee range, lasting for 4 seconds, dealing satisfying damage in the process? Or alternatively, have it explode 2-3 seconds after that trigger, proceeding to deal dot damage for 2-3 seconds after that? Perhaps too bursty, but I'm just brainstorming.)

LoL's items have those interesting ideas that are ultimately nerfed and made too subtle, too uninsteresting, while the bulk of a completed item's essence is in its stats.

iamsmurfing0101Jul 27, 20181 votes

Have you ever considered making something RADICAL, i know this is NEVER going to be made in League but for the sake of banter. If you ever played Heroes of the storm,they have no items but they can chose one upgrade from few given at the time on every level up. This opens up different strategies as those upgrades provide new stats/actives/passives etc. Every hero has its unique set of upgrades that he can chose from and they are never the same with other heroes. I know League will never do this but this way seems more easier to balance different strategies and taking different upgrades every game doesent feel bad at all. Can League make something in between that is easier to balance but also viable to chose different strategies every game depending on how you want to play that match?

BLACK REALM GODJul 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9VIkzT5P,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2018-07-27T03:31:01.488+0000)

I played a shit ton of Dota Allstars before moving over to League back in 2009...christ I've been playing this game far too long. Definitely, agree that our item system leaves a fair bit to be desired in terms of satisfaction and creative decision making, but it's also one of our strengths (approachability). You hit it pretty solidly when you referenced a desire to remove complexity since it was hard for players to deal with the number of actives and uniques in the game, and while we got gains in terms of "ease of use" so to speak, it came at the expense of strategic and tactical depth. Hard to say which is more valuable tbh, but I'd love if at some point we had the "change bandwidth" to do a decent overhaul to items to be based around actives and passives as opposed to stats. Only thing is that we'd likely run the risk of isolating a good chunk of players that enjoy the simplicity of the system, and we'd have to somehow suss out whether or not that cost is worth the gains

domo.

Morgana UltimaJul 27, 20181 votes

The main issue is that a lot of choices can't actually be made because you MUST have other things first.

Take Morgana for example. I would love to build Morello sometimes. However, I must first build Luden's or a similar item because I NEED the mana. If Morello still had mana on it then I could build it for its passive instead.

I realize not every champion uses mana, but it would be nice if some of the bare necessities of being a mage were addressed in generic mage items and this includes more than just raw AP. Going back to Dota 2, if I'm playing invoker just about every item is going to have some form of +int on it. This gives me the much needed base mana and mana regen I need to function as a mage so I'm confident I can build whatever item I need first.

Imagine a system where we could have a Rylai's with HP on it and a Rylai's with Mana on it and you could build either one you wanted for about the same cost. Then Rumble can still get the Rylais that is part of his kit and I can build it on Morgana if I feel I need it and not screw myself out of mana.

But I don't know. I certainly don't want black king bars and crap in the game. I just don't want to feel like its mandatory for me to build one thing every game.

LeftyRaydyJul 27, 20181 votes

You don't have to make it too complex but so items seem to lack variety, and tank items are even worse now. Giving items great passive abilities is a way to make items better without too much complexity.

Why is itemization in this game so bad?

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