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@designers merits of making condemn cast time scale with attack speed.

Fomorian27··2 votes·937 views

The most recent change made to vayne was standardization of condemn range to make it more in line with aa range, and the removal of the ability to attack while condemning. i think it's safe to say that both of those changes were good for clarity/flow because it's bad if the enemy thinks you're only applying 1 silver bolt stack but you're actually applying 2 at almost the same time. Even though the second one actually nerfed vayne's power level, it was a good change.

However, we're again at a point where vayne is considered on the weak side (she fluctuates a lot) and while i think she's in a lot better place flow wise, especially with the condemn range change, I can think of one other change that would help her flow better but not be a huge change in power, let me know what you think:

As mentioned before, vayne is a very flow dependent champion, with cadence of auto-auto-auto that feels really gratifying. Condemn is part of this because tumbling to get the perfect angle of condemn and condemn applying a stack of silver bolts is all part of the "flow" of vayne. However, as you gain more attack speed in the later parts of the game, the windup for her condemn makes it more and more jarring to use. It stops feeling like an autoattack and starts feeling like a spell. Of course, it actually IS a spell, but it's made up to look like an autoattack what with the applying silver bolts.

Any rioters thoughts? Would this be a bigger buff than I'm imagining? If there's a concern of counterplay as it may eventually go down to no cast time with enough attack speed, you could change it to have a cap.

7 Comments

Hyrum Graff1 votes

What it if became an AA modifier instead of a targeted spell?

As an aside, you should probably also build her like Phreak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZDJqpFspmg

Eapenator1 votes

AA modifier would be so hard to control and aim....

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Oh, true. Didn't think of that. Perhaps I should have added a Disclaimer: I don't play vayne.

As someone who plays against vayne quite frequently, though (supp main here), I'd have no problem with the windup speed scaling with AS, as long as the scaling is controlled so I have a little bit of warning time to use a dash/flash, even later into the game. This could be the tiny buff vayne needs to stay viable, without pushing her into OP territory.

Eapenator2 votes

I worry that to compensate for the AS scaling, they would have to make the initial levels of the e have a slower wind up time. Might make or break the champion, but I could see it happening.

The biggest thing is, like you said, being able to flash before the e goes off, so that it gives coutner play/ decision to blow high cd summoner spell. In laning phase, when there is a wall at the bottom of the screen at all times, it is significantly easier to pull off a condem, which is probably why there is a delay that you can flash/dash.

But late game, If a vayne is able to pull off a condemn on to a wall (considering the wide array of areas), I think it being instant would be an apt reward for vayne players. It could also bring more depth to the char (fighting in the jungle = much stronger / fits her night hunter theme, where she fights in closed spaces or darkness of the jungle, she should be stronger in these areas as opposed to the openness to the lane)

Hyrum Graff2 votes

I worry that to compensate for the AS scaling, they would have to make the initial levels of the e have a slower wind up time. Might make or break the champion, but I could see it happening.

I don't think we have to worry about breaking too much. Keep the early-game value the same, but give it terrible scaling. I think the idea is to give vayne more of a QoL buff than anything.

Condemn in early vs late game, and fighting in the jungle, thematically.

Ooh, that's a good point, and I think I rather agree with it. +1

Syvenon1 votes

Lol Atmas? umm okay...? Also bloodrazer was definitely not an ad item...

MyAccountYouGuys1 votes

Well I'd have to wonder what kind of scaling you're imagining. If Condemn went off as fast as a 1.8-2.0 AS Vayne shoots you could practically fire that while moving, and given that without her ult being in use she has to take the big crossbow down from her back, it makes sense for it to have a short windup.

Now if this only applied while in her ult where she has the big crossbow down already, I could get behind that.

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