What if we reworked Cassiopeia's passive?

Auryiel··4 votes·780 views

Can we, please? :D

What if it was something like this

Serpent's Curse

Enemies hit by Cassiopeia's abilities gain a stack of Serpent's Curse. Affected enemies take Z% bonus damage from Cassiopeia. This effect lasts X/X+1/X+2 seconds (values at levels 1, 6 and 11) and stacks Y times. Twing Fang's damage is increased by (Z+Z)%.

And then you can rebalance her abilities' damage values accordingly. Oh and remove the damage amp on E. And the mana restore on E. And change her mana costs. And make it so Cassiopeia is healed for a certain amount depending on the number of stacks of her passive the target has when she hits it with E. And make her Q's cooldown be 4/3.75/3.5/3.25/3 seconds. I mean, while we're looking at her, why just stop at her passive, am I right?

What would this accomplish? Several things, actually!

  1. We get rid of her current passive. That's a good thing, because her current passive is honestly just bad design. It does not offer any interesting additional gameplay elements to the character, unlike her previous passive. It's just a ball of meaningless stats. When you get your passive upgrades, it doesn't feel like you're getting stronger, it feels like you're getting less weak, like her power was just locked away as a big F-U to the players. It makes zero sense thematically. Even though you guys at Riot have tried really, really hard to sell the idea that Cassiopeia is all about growing and ascending, she's not. She's all about destroying her enemies. I constrains her ability to build items. Cassiopeia is forced into a very singular build path and your biggest choice here is which mana stacking item do I get? I mean I get that you guys wanted her to be a pseudo-marksman, but did you REALLY have to also port over the very sad fact that AD carry itemization is insanely stale?

  2. We get an interesting passive that is pretty much the opposite of her current one. It adds more depth to her kit. Maybe too much? IMO no, but I could see why some would argue that point. It's got a clearer power curve because of the increase in duration + your damage also scales with base damage and GOOD ap ratios instead of trash ones that are only justifiable because of the 500 stacks bonus. It makes a lot more sense thematically. It brings back the item diversity Cass used to have that the rework completely dumpstered.

  3. It allows Cass to adopt two playstyles, poke and all-in. You can poke with Qs and you are rewarded for landing several of them (the damage values would have Qs deal less damage without passive stacks, but more with max stacks). You can also go all-in. Since Q would only apply 1 stack per second and E benefits TWICE as much from the passive damage amp as well as applying it 2 times per second, the all-in style is rewarded more than the poke playstyle, because it is of course much riskier. This is very important because one of the things the rework did was remove the ability to kinda switch roles on a whim. Before the rework, Cass could poke until she was ready to go in OR go in as soon as she hit a Q, depending on what the situation called for. Now, the only good decision is to go in (unless the enemy jungler is in that river bush ;P). This, along with her item diversity, made her really interesting and fun to play. You could go for the poison build with Rylai's and Liandry's and still go all-in, or you could go tanky AP for a Ryze-esque playstyle or super heavy AP for the rambo twin fang spam. Of course, the 1st build would not be as good at all-ins and the last one would not be as good at kiting and zoning, but you could CHOOSE.

As for the other changes, namely making Cass' healing dependent on her passive, the removal of her mana restore and rebalancing of her mana costs and the change of Q's CD make her less of a lane-bully. Ideally, the passive would last something like 4-5 seconds at levels 1-5, so unlike old Cassiopeia, you can't just Q, Q, Q, Q until they're almost dead because hitting that one Q every 10 seconds or so is not nearly as rewarding as it used to be. As for current Cass' very annoying lane pattern, which consists of hitting one Q and eating half your health bar, it can no longer be sustained (lol) because you can't technically have infinite mana AND easy sustain through last hitting with E. IMO, having to juggle your mana like any other mage makes for a more interesting laning phase for both the Cass player and the opponent. Does it make her unable to lane? Of course not, that's not what we want. Besides, you can't really ever expect Cass to be bad in lane without being utter trash but you CAN balance her out to be only decent before she takes off WITHOUT giving her crippling mana costs.

tl;dr Just read the first few lines

10 Comments

Kingsgrave3 votes

I think a lot of people actually enjoy Cass now, its just her passive feels forced. I would like it to make more sense but other than that I think most of the current Cass players would be upset if you just reworked her again just to make the 20 people on the forums that talk endlessly about her happy.

Auryiel3 votes

I'm honestly convinced the vast majority of people like her because she is blatantly overpowered. I mean yeah it's fun to play champions that get insanely rewarded for a small effort on the player's part. Kinda like how much Irelia is rewarded for using her Q on a dying minion. Big whoop, you were aware of a minion's health bar. Now you get an exit after your trade OR you're way harder to get rid of. Cass currently is just hit Q and destroy your enemy. That's pretty shitty for people facing her Plus her pick rate never went crazy despite her being too strong. She got some well deserved nerfs, yet almost no one abused it. That and I don't think the changes I've proposed shit on the all-in playstyle that has been forced on Cass and that some people enjoy for sure

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

I'm honestly convinced the vast majority of people like her because she is blatantly overpowered. I mean yeah it's fun to play champions that get insanely rewarded for a small effort on the player's part. Kinda like how much Irelia is rewarded for using her Q on a dying minion. Big whoop, you were aware of a minion's health bar. Now you get an exit after your trade OR you're way harder to get rid of. Cass currently is just hit Q and destroy your enemy. That's pretty shitty for people facing her Plus her pick rate never went crazy despite her being too strong. She got some well deserved nerfs, yet almost no one abused it. That and I don't think the changes I've proposed shit on the all-in playstyle that has been forced on Cass and that some people enjoy for sure

Why is it hard to believe that people like her because they find her fun?

Everything you describe as to why you don't understand how people find the current iteration fun can be used to describe why people didn't understand why you found the previous iteration fun. It works both ways.

The passive should be reworked because its a ball of stats and its weird. The general concept is a solid one and it fits the character.

Auryiel3 votes

It's hard to believe because all she is is power. In fact, people only started liking her AFTER she became overpowered. Let's nerf Cass to a kinda weak, situational state and see how many of her new fans stick around, then we'll talk. Until then, I'd much rather listen to the people who loved her when she was legitimately an underwhelming pick and still enjoyed her.

And hum... the current passive's concept fits her?

Really?

Have you ever played this champion?

This concept is completely FORCED on her. It makes zero sense. ''I got cursed, so I'm gonna poison you and ACEND TO GODHOOD!'' Wat? The only reason people even have arguments FOR it is because of Stashu's half-assed attempt at justifying it

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

It's hard to believe because all she is is power. In fact, people only started liking her AFTER she became overpowered. Let's nerf Cass to a kinda weak, situational state and see how many of her new fans stick around, then we'll talk. Until then, I'd much rather listen to the people who loved her when she was legitimately an underwhelming pick and still enjoyed her.

And hum... the current passive's concept fits her?

Really?

Have you ever played this champion?

This concept is completely FORCED on her. It makes zero sense. ''I got cursed, so I'm gonna poison you and ACEND TO GODHOOD!'' Wat? The only reason people even have arguments FOR it is because of Stashu's half-assed attempt at justifying it

I tried giving you reasoned explanations and you just continued to spew hatred like every other Cass/Karma/Skarner player on these boards.

Auryiel2 votes

I have yet to see anything particularly enlightening from you besides ''Well you are wrong'' So, yeah...

Hawleo1 votes

You mean rework cassio a second time? :o

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Cassiopeia All I want is to be loved! Am I not beautiful the way I am!?!

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Can we, please?

I have no particular love for the stacking stat ball passive.

The main problem with your proposal is that it doesn't do enough to gate Cass's power away from the laning phase. Even with Cass's live passive, she's still pretty strong in lane, and at max stacks the passive is worth more gold than a Rabadon's.

I also worry that a poison stacking passive will be lame in teamfights. It's not often that Cass gets to put 3 or 4 stacks of poison on a target.

Oh and remove the damage amp on E. And the mana restore on E.

I think both of these mechanics are cool actually. The damage amp on E is what makes her QEEQ harass pattern go. The mana restore is way more useful than the old Deadly Cadence passive -- if you need to, you can last hit with E just to regen mana, at the cost of some lost zoning power. If you want to be mana neutral ish, you can QEEE to last hit and get decent pushing too.

And make it so Cassiopeia is healed for a certain amount depending on the number of stacks of her passive the target has when she hits it with E.

Seems like this makes it very hard for Cass to get meaningful sustain from creeps. I mean, they'll have tops two stacks, right?

In the late game, Cass wants to get sustain from minions because her role is very similar to a marksman and all marksmen have really quality minion sustain.

This is very important because one of the things the rework did was remove the ability to kinda switch roles on a whim.

I think the problem with this is that it is super hard for the opponent to find counterplay. Stay at long range, get hit with Qs, eventually get shoved out. Get in closer, get hit with QEEEE, get shoved out faster. Live Cass gives you the clear message - don't get hit by multiple Es and you're probably doing pretty well.

Of course, the 1st build would not be as good at all-ins and the last one would not be as good at kiting and zoning, but you could CHOOSE.

Good take. Certainly build diversity is a weakness of live Cass.

Auryiel2 votes
  1. At worst, you also make the % damage amp scale with levels
  2. Her E damage amp is only there because Riot didn't really understand what people were asking for when they said they wanted stronger poisons. You could remove it and she'd be pretty much the same, since most Cass just level E first and give no fuck about the damage of Q. In fact, Q and W could do zero damage right now and she would still play exactly the same. That's a problem. I don't play much LoL these days but I still enjoy watching streams and from what I see the play pattern is Q-EEE and then back off. It's not even worth the mana to use that second Q :| As for the mana restore, it's a problem because it helps create the problem of lack of build diversity Here's why: If she has it, her mana costs need to be pretty high. If her mana costs are really high, she needs mana or mana regen. Mana regen items = CDR items. She doesn't like CDR that much, ESPECIALLY since her only valuable spell is her E (a poke centric build would actually like CDR) and also because of her passive. So what do we end up with? Archangel's or RoA every single game.
  3. Should she really have sustain from minions, especially at early levels? That actually helps her be a lane bully, which is one of the things Riot wanted to avoid with the rework. Plus, her healing would be greater than it is right now against opponents with several stacks AKA large objectives and champions. So the net result is that she's not nearly as much of a lane bully, her more poke-oriented self doesn't have sustain of her own and her E-spam self has increased sustain to compensate for that and the fact that she is putting herself at risk.
  4. The counterplay to Cass right now is pretty much avoid Q. It has always been, it probably always will be. I fail to see how it would change. Would you care to explain? The way I see it, being able to switch roles is a strength, one I think Cass should pay for, the way her old self did. More importantly, whatever style you choose to adopt, at your core, you are still a squishy DPS mage and the answer to your opponent's problems is simple : avoid Q, CC, dive, burst. A more poke-oriented Cass would stay farther away from the enemy team's threat, but in turn she is not as much of a threat as that Cass who's close enough to shit on you with Es. I think it's more interesting to have access to both styles. Less risk, less reward, more risk, more reward and the key to playing the champ is knowing when to take the risks.

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