Again, stop buffing Lee Sin everytime before Worlds

BeatzBoyFTW·Sep 6, 2019·77 votes·18,060 views

**Lee Sin ** Base HP increased from 570.8 to 575 Base damage increased from 69.18 to 70 Dragon's Rage (R) damage increased from 150/375/600 to 175/400/625

He's fine as he is right now, why even bother buffing the one ability that heavily displaces the enemy and possibly into his own team as well? This is so stupid...

Your Patch Notes for Lee Sin better be descriptive & reasonable about it. Don't give us that "Lee isnt doing so hot, so we're buffing him" bullshit.

77 Comments

Unusual midlanerSep 6, 201912 votes

Lee is the last balanced hyper mobile champ and they’re literally trying to make him broken tier

DuskDaUmbreonSep 6, 20199 votes

This...is is satire, right?

BeatzBoyFTWSep 6, 201943 votes

{quoted}

This...is is satire, right?

If you're telling me he's actually that weak, then we must be playing different games.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 6, 201912 votes

Statistically he's really only doing well in Master, and only there.

And it's two number cleanups and 25 damage on his ult. You're trying to paint it like it's a massive buff when it's basically nothing.

boricCentaur1Sep 6, 201919 votes

He is the most played jg in basically every elo he should never be buffed if anything nerfed.

Ahri BakaSep 6, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Statistically he's really only doing well in Master, and only there.

And it's two number cleanups and 25 damage on his ult. You're trying to paint it like it's a massive buff when it's basically nothing.

Stats can't always speak everything honestly He is the most played jungler right now , so of course the winrate will drop the higher the pick rate gets , let's not forget that he is high skill gap champions Not sure if the numbers in the buff are big or small , but the idea itself of buffing the champion is what bothers the OP

MoonšSep 6, 20191 votes

Stats speak the loudest. :p

Ahri BakaSep 6, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Stats speak the loudest. :p

What I'm saying is , those stats got reasons behind them It's known the more the pick rate of the champion is , it makes the champion winrate drop a lot And Lee is a high skill gap champion those kind of champions are balanced around having 47 or 48% winrate Lee has 49% , his stats are very high for a high skill gap champion that has huge pick rate The champion is meta already and needs no buffs , and he is the most played jungler

TL;DR , You can't just say his winrate is 49% so it's low There are other factions like Skill gap and pick rate which both are high.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 6, 20191 votes

Stats are the only fucking thing that matters for balance.

He has a high pickrate (which, surprise surprise, IS A STAT), but no pickrate justifies a fucking 47% winrate.

Ahri BakaSep 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Stats are the only fucking thing that matters for balance.

He has a high pickrate (which, surprise surprise, IS A STAT), but no pickrate justifies a fucking 47% winrate.

Lee has 48.5 actually , also Ezreal had 47% winrate before the nerf and don't forget , he is high skill gap

InfernapeSep 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Stats are the only fucking thing that matters for balance.

He has a high pickrate (which, surprise surprise, IS A STAT), but no pickrate justifies a fucking 47% winrate.

Other than the fact that Lee Sin is one of the most difficult champions to effectively pull off. Of course with Lee Sin's immense skill cap that the more people play him the lower his win rate becomes overall. If Lee Sin's win rate was over 50% with that sort of pick rate it would mean he's so dumbed down that anyone can play him.

And it's pretty much obvious that Riot is forcing Lee into the worlds meta because he's a pro play staple and always has been.

ImTheJuggernautySep 6, 201916 votes

{quoted}

Statistically he's really only doing well in Master, and only there.

And it's two number cleanups and 25 damage on his ult. You're trying to paint it like it's a massive buff when it's basically nothing.

so he's doing well in the highest tier of play, and they buff him for world's, and you're trying to justify a buff? besides, there are way worse off champs right now.

ﬂooSep 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Statistically he's really only doing well in Master, and only there.

And it's two number cleanups and 25 damage on his ult. You're trying to paint it like it's a massive buff when it's basically nothing.

It's 25 damage on both the first kick and every target hit afterwards. So basicall 25 - 125 depending on how many people he hits. Sure, it's rare to hit all 4 other people as well, but you'll see him hit at least someone else often enough. So why does a point and click ult with 150-600 base damage need the 25-125 extra damage? It doesn't look like much, but this is literally how damage creep is created.

Exin0Sep 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

It's 25 damage on both the first kick and every target hit afterwards. So basicall 25 - 125 depending on how many people he hits. Sure, it's rare to hit all 4 other people as well, but you'll see him hit at least someone else often enough. So why does a point and click ult with 150-600 base damage need the 25-125 extra damage? It doesn't look like much, but this is literally how damage creep is created.

You now what irks me? when graves was about to loose 3 AD there was huge uproar how it will be unplayabe trash and now iam looking at stat+dmg buff excused like its nothnig.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 6, 20191 votes

Because you clearly have never read Graves' passive to see that 3 AD is actually more than 3 damage.

And ~.8 AD isn't even a real change. That is literally less than a full point of damage.

Exin0Sep 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Because you clearly have never read Graves' passive to see that 3 AD is actually more than 3 damage.

And ~.8 AD isn't even a real change. That is literally less than a full point of damage.

lee sin is also scaling from his base stats so its not really only 0.8 AD. Iam not saying its something substantial but its still buff on three parts so dont treat it like nothing.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 7, 20191 votes

Calling it a buff to 3 parts is kinda wrong, though. .8 AD is practically nothing, but 4.2 HP is so beyond trivial it doesn't matter in the slightest.

Z3SIeeperSep 6, 20193 votes

A high skill champion doing bad in low level play but really well in high level play?

Damn must be weak, time to buff.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 6, 20192 votes

It's not "really well", it's a 51% winrate.

Romans VI XXIIISep 7, 20191 votes

sooooooo why r we buffing a 51% win rate????????????????????????????????????????????????

sounds like he is right were he should be.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 7, 20191 votes

Because Riot wants to try to make him less terrible in low tier?

Romans VI XXIIISep 7, 20195 votes

there are PLENTY of champions at lower %s than Lee that need to be less terrible in low tier. He is also a "high skill" champion, so he should be poor in low tier lol.

BeatzBoyFTWSep 7, 20191 votes

Does it stop people from playing him compared to Fiddlesticks & Nunu at low tier....?

Yeah, just like I thought.

FμνSep 7, 20191 votes

I think that this is not Riots plan in general. They mostly buff for high elo, see e.g. all the Azir nerfs over the years, and he nearly always had awefull winrate etc..

DuskDaUmbreonSep 7, 20191 votes

They've targeted for both. A lot of the changes that nerf tankiness and buff damage are low-elo oriented.

KovorixSep 6, 20195 votes

Tbf after so many cancer shit got introduced I prefer watching Lee instead of Zoe, Irelia, Akali, Kai sa or pyke or any other toxic bullshit.

BeatzBoyFTWSep 7, 20191 votes

I don't see a reason why Lee is in a different category compared to the champions mentioned...

KovorixSep 7, 20192 votes

Hmm let's see: very long range one shot, getting 20 summoner spells, having a billion resets for jumping around, nuking entire teams because of resets, having a slow displacement and stund, a shitton of movement speed and being healed out of combat. Yeah sounds like Lee to me.

MasterDCloneSep 6, 20193 votes

OH NO 5HP HOW WILL WE SURVIVE, OH MY GOD THAT WILL MAKE HIM SO BROKEN. NOW HE WILL DOMINATE NOT ONLY WORLDS BUT EVERY GAME. IF THAT WASN'T ENOUGH THEY ARE ALSO BUFFING HIM BY 0.8 AD AND 25 DAMAGE ON HIS ULT.. WHY RIOT WHYYYYYYY

Z3SIeeperSep 7, 20192 votes

I agree. Let's just give every champion 5 more health and 25 more damage on their ults.

It's just a small buff that won't impact much right? Why not?

MasterDCloneSep 7, 20191 votes

well like idk if every champion even benefits from 25 damage on their ults, like soraka for example would she then do damage to her teamates as well as hell, i don't know if you thought about this that hard, like seriously every champion can't get 25 damage on their ults some champs don't do damage with their ult on the otherhand lee sin does and this small buff wont impact much lol

Z3SIeeperSep 7, 20192 votes

I wouldn't mind if they gave my main a "small buff that wouldn't impact much" too.

Just slap 25 damage on my champion for no reason, go for it.

LovelleSep 7, 20191 votes

Trundle I certainly wouldn't mind them reducing the cooldown on his Pillar. 15% slow for 70 mana at rank 1, on a 24 second cooldown, on a champ that has no other way to close the gap AND no burst damage.

Lee Sin often gets fed before this skill starts to become remotely useful for ganking. Not to mention his clearing speed is exponentially faster. Nah, he needs buffs though.

Crescent DuskSep 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I certainly wouldn't mind them reducing the cooldown on his Pillar. 15% slow for 70 mana at rank 1, on a 24 second cooldown, on a champ that has no other way to close the gap AND no burst damage.

Lee Sin often gets fed before this skill starts to become remotely useful for ganking. Not to mention his clearing speed is exponentially faster. Nah, he needs buffs though.

Fuck trundle. Tanks are useless enough as it is without making this cancer champ relevant again.

LovelleSep 7, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=99ds253A,comment-id=000b00000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-09-07T15:45:38.701+0000)

Fuck trundle. Tanks are useless enough as it is without making this cancer champ relevant again.

C'mon, he's not that bad.

Crescent DuskSep 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

C'mon, he's not that bad.

He's not that bad if you're some ranged kiting champ or a burst champ pre-6. After that he outduels pretty much any immobile melee, e.g tanks and bruisers that are not Renekton or OP garbage like Darius and Kled who just stat check everyone pre-11. Once he gets botrk, death's dance, and trinity he shits on anyone he wants short of late game Jax.

LovelleSep 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=99ds253A,comment-id=000b0000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-07T20:30:43.447+0000)

He's not that bad if you're some ranged kiting champ or a burst champ pre-6. After that he outduels pretty much any immobile melee, e.g tanks and bruisers that are not Renekton or OP garbage like Darius and Kled who just stat check everyone pre-11. Once he gets botrk, death's dance, and trinity he shits on anyone he wants short of late game Jax.

Trinity isn't even that good on him. Neither is Death's Dance. If he builds like that, he basically doesn't get to team fight unless massively fed. He has no mitigation abilities outside of his ult, so he has to build tanky. Bork is good on him, but he can't afford to rush it against good players or he'll typically just get CC'd/kited and bursted.

He also lacks waveclearing abilities, he has one of the slower clearing speeds among the junglers, which forces him into rushing Tiamat/Bami's Cinder or risk falling behind against faster junglers.

He doesn't scale well with AD items, just health/CDR/On-hit, along with anything that gives lifesteal and/or health regen. This makes Botrk and/or Wit's End vastly more useful than an expensive item like Death's Dance if you need lifesteal.

Lastly, his sustain scales with his tankiness, so he can't afford many damage items that don't have either resists or health tied to them. With a glass cannon build he's merely a discount Jax or Yi.

Crescent DuskSep 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Trinity isn't even that good on him. Neither is Death's Dance. If he builds like that, he basically doesn't get to team fight unless massively fed. He has no mitigation abilities outside of his ult, so he has to build tanky. Bork is good on him, but he can't afford to rush it against good players or he'll typically just get CC'd/kited and bursted.

He also lacks waveclearing abilities, he has one of the slower clearing speeds among the junglers, which forces him into rushing Tiamat/Bami's Cinder or risk falling behind against faster junglers.

He doesn't scale well with AD items, just health/CDR/On-hit, along with anything that gives lifesteal and/or health regen. This makes Botrk and/or Wit's End vastly more useful than an expensive item like Death's Dance if you need lifesteal.

Lastly, his sustain scales with his tankiness, so he can't afford many damage items that don't have either resists or health tied to them. With a glass cannon build he's merely a discount Jax or Yi.

He's gonna be shit at teamfights either way, if you don't have ult, what the fuck are you doing in TF anyways. Your job in tf is to make the enemy frontline wet toilet paper by ulting them.

The rest of the time, you should be split pushing as trundle takes turrets like few people do and few can duel you at any point of the game.

He's not a discount jax/yi because jax/yi need to be close to full builds to be able to start dueling bruisers and tanks in sidelanes. Yi will get wrecked by a Renekton in a way trundle won't in the mid to late game. Jax won't make it out of laning phase as he takes forever to come online if the opponent is smart in lane with aggressive play or in jungle with early invades.

Trundle doesn't scale as well as either of them but that's because he doesn't have anywhere as close to an atrocious and easily abusable early, and he still trumps both of them in eliminating tanks out of team fights. Neither Jax or Yi deal with the deeply obnoxious late game Garen/Shen/Poppy like Trundle does. One ult and all those die in 3 caitlyn/jinx autos.

LovelleSep 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=99ds253A,comment-id=000b000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-08T17:47:08.473+0000)

He's gonna be shit at teamfights either way, if you don't have ult, what the fuck are you doing in TF anyways. Your job in tf is to make the enemy frontline wet toilet paper by ulting them.

The rest of the time, you should be split pushing as trundle takes turrets like few people do and few can duel you at any point of the game.

He's not a discount jax/yi because jax/yi need to be close to full builds to be able to start dueling bruisers and tanks in sidelanes. Yi will get wrecked by a Renekton in a way trundle won't in the mid to late game. Jax won't make it out of laning phase as he takes forever to come online if the opponent is smart in lane with aggressive play or in jungle with early invades.

Trundle doesn't scale as well as either of them but that's because he doesn't have anywhere as close to an atrocious and easily abusable early, and he still trumps both of them in eliminating tanks out of team fights. Neither Jax or Yi deal with the deeply obnoxious late game Garen/Shen/Poppy like Trundle does. One ult and all those die in 3 caitlyn/jinx autos.

Trundle's teamfighting is great with maxed out Pillar and capped cdr, that shit wins games. Why do you think they keep his Pillar in a hard-nerfed state, while trying to buff the rest of his abilities?

While countering tanks and juggernauts is something he's great at, he can easily make plays by peeling/trapping opponents with his E, giving his team free reign to poke the enemy to oblivion.

He wouldn't be so good at supporting (with support/tanks build no less) if he couldn't teamfight. High elo Trundle players on SR typically max Pillar first and run Aftershock/tank builds, and that playstyle is generally what gets him nerfed.

His damage builds have been lackluster for years. No one at high level play builds him like a carry anymore, with his level of utility (coupled with piss poor damage scaling) there's no point.

Crescent DuskSep 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Trundle's teamfighting is great with maxed out Pillar and capped cdr, that shit wins games. Why do you think they keep his Pillar in a hard-nerfed state, while trying to buff the rest of his abilities?

While countering tanks and juggernauts is something he's great at, he can easily make plays by peeling/trapping opponents with his E, giving his team free reign to poke the enemy to oblivion.

He wouldn't be so good at supporting (with support/tanks build no less) if he couldn't teamfight. High elo Trundle players on SR typically max Pillar first and run Aftershock/tank builds, and that playstyle is generally what gets him nerfed.

His damage builds have been lackluster for years. No one at high level play builds him like a carry anymore, with his level of utility (coupled with piss poor damage scaling) there's no point.

There are champs with far better pick potential than Trundle. Tank-busting and turret melting is what he excels at. What's his playrate as supp? Nonexistant.

Why pick a trundle with some pillar gimmick when you can pick Sejuani/Skarner/Nunu/Warwick/elise/lee sin for more reliable pick potential? Because he deals far better with tanks than any of those other ones (and he can duel out bruisers in sidelanes later into the game, which none of the previous ones save a fed warwick can), and he can deal with the Udyrs/Xin Zhaos/Lee Sins/Elise early as well short of Warwick who's another fantastic early game duelist.

Trundle is just currently suffering because Olaf in jungle overshadows him in being the aggressive anti-tank jg, and in top lane trundle can't match up to the overbuffed early game bully bruisers.

But the moment a tank meta returns, this champion will be all over again.

LovelleSep 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=99ds253A,comment-id=000b00000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-08T19:37:55.441+0000)

There are champs with far better pick potential than Trundle. Tank-busting and turret melting is what he excels at. What's his playrate as supp? Nonexistant.

Why pick a trundle with some pillar gimmick when you can pick Sejuani/Skarner/Nunu/Warwick/elise/lee sin for more reliable pick potential? Because he deals far better with tanks than any of those other ones (and he can duel out bruisers in sidelanes later into the game, which none of the previous ones save a fed warwick can), and he can deal with the Udyrs/Xin Zhaos/Lee Sins/Elise early as well short of Warwick who's another fantastic early game duelist.

Trundle is just currently suffering because Olaf in jungle overshadows him in being the aggressive anti-tank jg, and in top lane trundle can't match up to the overbuffed early game bully bruisers.

But the moment a tank meta returns, this champion will be all over again.

Unless they revert his E nerfs he will remain super-underplayed.

Crescent DuskSep 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Unless they revert his E nerfs he will remain super-underplayed.

What we need is less niche, binary champs designed around rock-paper-scissors, that's why he suffers. He's only good when tanks are good, much like Amumu in jg.

The newer champs are all highly flexible, and that's why older champs suffer, because they were designed essentially as a game of counterpicks.

LovelleSep 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=99ds253A,comment-id=000b0000000000000001000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-09-08T22:08:43.016+0000)

What we need is less niche, binary champs designed around rock-paper-scissors, that's why he suffers. He's only good when tanks are good, much like Amumu in jg.

The newer champs are all highly flexible, and that's why older champs suffer, because they were designed essentially as a game of counterpicks.

That's not true. Trundle is good when tank ITEMIZATION is good, not just tanks. I don't know if you remember the "tank rework" when tanks were taking over top lane. Trundle wasn't picked back then because resistances still scaled horribly, while tanks had been buffed directly. He relies on tank itemization being good arguably more than tanks do.

He'll only be chosen as a counterpick at best until defensive itemization/runes are allowed to actually have scaling again.

MyMomsACrackheadSep 11, 20191 votes

Amumu: Laughs in ap

Crescent DuskSep 7, 20191 votes

Lee Sin's early game burst is just disgusting for how durable he is compared to other burst champs. I mean, why play Kha Zix/Evelynn when you can do the same damage as Lee Sin with way more durability and CC on top.

A Lee Sin's kick is doing as much as 1/3 of someone's HP by lv6. It's dumb considering all the damage he has besides it on top of his ally laner. Makes turret diving really trivial on him.

Who Fed RuSep 7, 20191 votes

Worlds are the only thing that matters anyway, the game is far beyond saving

Aatrox EichmannSep 7, 20191 votes

They want broxah sama to make them a highlight reel

SiG DxDSep 7, 20191 votes

riot: "muh insec muh playmake muh outplay"

Rock MDSep 7, 20191 votes

This patch and the next are Riot's worlds' patches, where they get to buff champions that are close to meta in the hopes we'll see more diversity on the big screen. It's not about buffing C tier champions, it's about trying to get high B and low A tier champions into that sweet spot where they can be picked on stage.
This isn't even that big of a buff. It's 25 more damage in an all in combo.

You're freaking out over next to nothing and it really won't affect your games.