Just curious as to the reasoning behind the "Talon needs buffed" threads.

SexyTaylorSwift·Dec 1, 2014·4 votes·782 views

His win rate is in the top 25% and his pick rate is about middle of the pack. So why this champion needs buffed in comparison to others is what I am wondering.

32 Comments

TehNACHODec 1, 20147 votes

Most Talon mains feel cheated, and to a large extent, rightfully so.

Near the end of the 'era of silencing Assassins', Talon was (I believe) the last Assassin with a notable silence in his assassination rotation, and many assassin players started picking up Talon because of this. Then, bam, Talon loses his silence to remove his near uncounterable play style, and as compensation, Talon receives...a really, really bad slow.

A lot of people just really want compensation for the silence, something to make Talon more reliable in trade for how suicidal Talon's kit is in many situations.

DrCyanideDec 1, 20141 votes

I'm just curious about that logic. Talon got more compensation than Leblanc did if memory serves me right.

Maybe it's just that every time I've gone against a Talon post-silence he's destroyed my team, but I really don't think he needs any compensation.

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

The logic is in the last part of his post. Leblanc is a much safer champ, she didn't need her silence to trade effectively. Also, being ap means she has access to probably the best defensive item in the game: item 3157 . Talon just doesn't have the amount of safety other assassins offer, well i mean he used to, but now his silence is gone.

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

Well, I mean Fiddles was also nerfed twice, with terrible compensation. Did that put him in a bad place? Nope. I kind of feel the same way with Talon. I don't think he needs buffs while being in the top 25% for win rate, without having a terrible pick rate to counter it. Just my opinion though.

GloriousKaiserDec 1, 20145 votes

Law of Mains: When champions who got nerfed have heightened winrates, it's because their mains are the ones playing them instead of regular players who pick them up.

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

Didn't know that was a thing, but I 100% agree with that statement.

GloriousKaiserDec 1, 20142 votes

It's really just the bandwagon thing. Win rates always fluctuate when FoTM champions are found.

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

I agree with this statement. But considering Talon is played more than almost half of the champion pool, does it really apply to him? Also, given his top 25% win rate, what would happen if he was buffed? The mains would wreck with him.

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

How many buffs has warwick got in the last couple of months? Why do you think he has by far the highest win rate? This game follows meta's and itemization changes even more so than champion buffs/nerfs. Buffing a champion does not automatically increase its win rate, otherwise champs like malzahar, katarina, warwick, or fiora wouldn't have some of the highest win rates in the game. They sure as hell haven't been buffed recently. In fact the main reason both malzahar and katarina are at such high win rates atm is because riot nerfed one of their best counters recently...... Talon.....

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

I understand that. That being said, the other changes have already taken effect, so buffing him would obviously lead to him being better. I am not sure what your point was here. Those champions were buffed with or before the changes if memory serves me well, so the changes had an effect on them. Buffing Malz now would certainly not decrease his win rate, unless he became one of the most played champs, in that case win rate doesn't really matter since many new players would be playing him.

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

Katarina and malzahar were in no way buffed whatsoever, I just said the reason why their win rate is up is because one of their biggest reliable counters was nerfed. Now the results of this are that katatrina is receiving pbe nerfs. I don't know about everybody else, but I prefer to see champs get buffed instead of champs becoming good because their competition is nerfed, which is exactly how talon became fotm the last few months in the first place. So, of course riot would hit him with the nerf bat, just like they are doing to katarina right now.

foristDec 1, 20142 votes

If you don't want to listen to other people's opinions, then play the champ and figure out yourself.

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

I made this thread to listen to other people's opinion. I mean, what kind of logic is for me to play the champ and figure it out myself? Do you really think I would be able to get an accurate viewpoint on the champ just learning him? It would take me a long long time to get to the point where I can actually formulate my opinion based on his game play. I am not able to do that, hence asking it here. I can pick up Yasuo and say he needs crazy buffs because I would obviously suck with him. Me being bad with a champ, and not understanding his mechanics that well, does not mean that he would need buffed.

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

Oh, my mistake.... I was under the impression that you only wanted validation for your own opinions due to your previous posts on the last couple of threads. So, i was generously suggesting that you form your own opinion based on your own experiences with the champion.

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

Nope, I was looking for some insightful info.

AtheosisXDec 1, 20142 votes

Because people like bitch and complain about everything with this game. Talon is fine.

JayenKeiDec 1, 20142 votes

Talon losing his silence is fine It's because of the 1/4 slow that he got...which is utter crap Yea Talon can still kill but there are many times when the kill is traded because Talon is the epitome of a suicide bomber I'm curious to see where you got your stats Talon is definitely not in the 25% pool of champ picks He's more like in the top 50%? Winrate? Yeah, it's still the same because the people who are actually extremely good with him still play. But to be honest, the likes of Vapora Dark and Insoy don't play Talon all that much anymore and they were widely accepted as the best Talon players in NA. Also because of the small sample size win rate is not a great argument either. The margin of error is too high. When people call for buffs on Talon, they aren't asking for much. It's really just a change to his E or to buff his terrible laning phase. His damage (although lower than most burst assassins mind you) is fine. His slow is not even mediocre, it was just a bad, lazy move by Riot. Talon players are even more frustrated because after Riot said that they would keep watch over Talon, there has been nothing about Talon. No buffs, no changes, no comments. People are calling for changes such as, an e reset, or the ability to jump to allies and/or wards, or making e act like kennen's mark of the storm, or making e a damage ability, etc None of those suggestions are really game breaking (besides the reset, I think that's overdoing it). But yeah that's coming from a lowly Silver player...so...I guess you don't really have to take my word for it. I just wanted to put my 2 cents out there

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

First, I never said his pick rate was top 25%, that was for win rate. His pick rate is about 50%. That is where I disagree with your "sample size is too small" because he is played more than almost half of the champions.

That being said, I would be ok with your suggestions lol. I am not saying Talon is OP at all, I just asked why he needs buffed and not the 50% of champs that are picked less than him or the 75% of champs that have lower win rates. I think those champs need to be focused on more than a champ that doesn't seem to be in a bad place in my opinion.

Last point, you don't have to be a high elo player to understand a champ and the game. Nothing is more annoying than someone of high elo saying, "You don't know anything because you're gold" lol. Just because you are better at clicking the buttons, does not mean you are always smarter lol. A lot of coaches in sports were never professional players, doesn't mean that they don't understand the game just because they aren't the best at playing it.

foristDec 1, 20141 votes

Just because a champ has a lower win and pick rate doesn't mean they need to be buffed. Elise still has one of the lowest pick rates in the game like 2.26% and a 42.97% win rate, yet her kit is more than fine atm. Champs shouldn't be buffed/nerfed just because of win rate stats, hopefully riot looks way more into it than that, then again they did nerf talon.....

JayenKeiDec 1, 20142 votes

Ahhh okay then I apologize for reading your post incorrectly I'll rephrase about the sample size. The size itself isn't what I can call small but it doesn't accurately represent the general population of the League community. Talon numbers are widely misrepresented because like I said in the aforementioned post, extremely good Talon players still play him and succeed. I agree that there are a lot of champs that need to be looked at like you said. But a lot of those champs are either A) Simply don't fit with the meta meaning newer players will not gravitate toward those champs because they don't see them often. Examples of these would be like Aniva, Hecarim, Galio and Viktor B) They need a complete overhaul or some very good buffs. Examples would be Evelynn, Cassiopeia, Urgot.

I also don't think Talon is in a bad place. I will say Talon players feel cheated because of the terrible compensation that was given. You also have to realize that most Talon mains still played Talon when he was considered trash tier and now because all of sudden he was seen at the professional level and then Kass and Leblanc were nerfed a lot of players jumped on the Talon bandwagon. As a result, many people cried OP because Talon was underplayed and when an underplayed champ gets overplayed people don't know what to do against the champ.

I wouldn't say that Talon is unplayable but his laning phase is a lot worse now because of the removal of silence. That means the only way to trade is rake and rake has some stupidly high mana costs as it is. This means that Talon power spike at level 6 is decreased and his original power spike at level 3 is irrelevant. Also, with so many people using burst mages nowadays, it's even harder for Talon to play. Why? Because of all those mid lane mages have hard cc. Syndra? Oh, let me stun you with my extremely long ranged ball, Xerath? Don't even worry about it, etc. Here's why Talon can't trade. All mid lane assassins have some form of escape (Leblanc W,R; Kassadin R; Katarina E; Fizz troll pole ._. ; Zed the master of saftey and forgiving mistakes; etc) meaning they can trade just enough for their initial burst and get out safely. In all honesty, I hate it when people say Talon's R is a viable form of escape because it simply isn't. The one and only reason why it's viable is because people refuse to counter by upgrading trinket or buying a pink ward and dropping it once a teamfight begins. Also, the blades converge which gives Talon's position away. Anyways, in laning phase Talon's full rotation cannot do enough damage to 100-0 anyone. Period. It's not happening. Good Talon players at least poke the opponent to half health before all inning (AND even then they still need to ignite to secure the kill lol).

In teamfights, Talon is very good at deleting the adc or apc (without zhonyas) but after that? LOL People say that Talon makes the fight a 4v5 but Talon becomes so irrelevant after his rotation is down which practically makes the fight a 4v4. Now Talon has lost that safety cushion and dies while killing someone (not all the time of course but quite a bit).

But yeah...again he's not what I call unplayable (imo he's in a good place) but it would help to have better compensation for his E and/or his laning phase

And thanks for the encouragement xD A lot of Diamond/Plat/Gold players just shoot me down for being silver sooooooo yeah that's why I put that on there xD

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

I agree with most of what you said. I don't agree with the good players still play him argument, because that can be used for just about everyone as well. Also, given his pick rate, I am not sure the argument can be made either. Aside, from that, I do agree with most of what you are saying. In lanning phase, I don't want to be able to get 100-0 without being able to do anything about it lol. The people you mentioned, like Kat and Fizz, can at least be CC'd or something to stop their damage. With the silence, it was really hard to counter anything Talon threw at you, at least for me that is. I do like to see that you actually think he is in a good place, though, because you aren't just one of those people that main Talon that are crying because he isn't freelo anymore and looking for the next freelo champ (100% talking about Warwick).

Hullabaloo907Dec 1, 20141 votes

Hes the riskiest assassin to play because his only escape and a lot of his damage is tied up in the same spell. He also has less single target damage than most assassins. These weaknesses were there because of the silence, but he doest have that anymore

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

Woohoo!! Talon free week!!! Let's see the madness that is surrounding the champ that was nerfed to the ground and is currently unplayable!

JayenKeiDec 1, 20141 votes

Yeah, that's why I believe Riot made the right move by removing it. The issue is just the terrible compensation. I personally don't want Talon to have the ability to escape (lol right?). The reason why I love this champ is because he needs to be cold and calculating. I was simply attracted by the go big or go home attitude he brought to the table xD. So, for me personally, I have yet to see good suggestions for cutthroat, but that's just me. I will also say, to survive Talon at his level 6 power spike build seekers armguard, it really goes a long way. People argue that you're set behind in your build if you rush that (which is true) BUT it's always okay to farm up and catch up, rather than dying, feeding Talon and letting him faceroll your bot lane xD.

I also agree. TBH the Talon "mains" that "play" Talon just make a bad name for Talon players. Most talon players agreed with the nerf they just want something other than a 1/4 of a second slow (kind of redundant because rake slows).

Just to add, I read all the time that Talon's damage must have improved because of the slow and his passive. First off his passive is one of the worst passives in the game and to put it into perspective. Say Talon crits for 1k damage (which is a lot), his mercy passive lets him to 10% more damage which is only 100 damage ._. It really isn't that much lol.

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

I mean, yeah, people always want compensated lol. Fiddles got 2 back to back huge nerfs without compensation. People complained, until they realized that he was still in a good place. I don't see people still complaining about it. I think the same thing will happen with Talon because I think he is in a good place at the moment.

JayenKeiDec 1, 20141 votes

Hmm...idk what these nerfs are...does it have to do with Terrify? How the duration was decreased and that enemies afflicted by terrify run away? :o

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

Yes, his fear duration was reduced by 25% and then it made it so enemies run away, taking less damage lol.

SpecterVonBarenDec 1, 20141 votes

The way I see it, he didn't need to lose his silence. But I have the opposite reason for why he shouldn't have lost it from other people, I don't think his silence is what makes Talon powerful, against a lot of squishies, it doesn't matter if you're silenced or not, you will die to Talon. The only thing removing his silence changed was his safety against specific champs like Kat or Malzahar who have a high damage, channeled ult and a point and click suppression respectively.

What I'm getting at is, he didn't need to lose his silence, because his silence isn't what makes him powerful against adc's, squishy utility supports, or other high damage carries like Yi. All removing his silence has done is make him have more risk when against mages in the lanning phase, but if he can manage to get through the lanning phase ahead or even then he can still do his job of taking out squishy targets because he has his team to spread the cc around for him or get the enemy to use cc on someone else on his team.

JayenKeiDec 1, 20141 votes

Well going from 3 seconds to 2.25 seconds isn't that bad and seeing that fiddle still has so much cc... I don't think he needs compensation LOL talon in retrospect didn't need the silence it just made his life easier and I think because literally all assassins have a viable form of escape people just want that for him... But again I'd be down just with channel interruption

SexyTaylorSwiftDec 1, 20141 votes

It is a huge jump lol. Considering everyone has tenacity, his fear is really only about 1.5 seconds lol. Also making them run away hurt his damage too. That is why middlesticks and supportsticks were pushed out of those lanes, now when I go mid Fid, people call me a troll lol. Talon does have his ult..

HayaishiDec 2, 20141 votes

Assassin mains cry if they have to play on even ground with everybody else.

JayenKeiDec 2, 2014

I disagree simply because even with less cc duration he still has an ample amount of cc. Also Fiddle was build to be a mage/support. His intended role was not to necessarily bring out kills but to control the fight through his insane cc. Talon's ult is a terrible excuse for an escape. The movement speed isn't really gonna save you, invisibility is the easiest thing to counter (Pinks and upgraded trinkets) and the blades converge to his location. Also Talon's damage suffers a lot from not having that second hit in his ult.