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Let's talk about Elise

Tengrichan··24 votes·2,340 views

Hey,with the recent changes to a jungle item(Cinderhulk) i picked up Elise to see how she perform against other junglers and generally what she brings to the team. The skill order i use is R>W>Q>E. However i saw on champion.gg that the highest win % skill order maxes Q first and W second. My jungle masteries are standard 9/21/0. Just so you see how i play her and treat things i wrote below accordingly.

General things i noticed in her kit while played her:

  • Her human form lacks in damage and visual satisfaction.Especially Neurotoxin.It has a rather bland and visually unappealing animation and projectile. It's current usage also lacks.It has a horrible range and huge manacosts for pitiful damage. By horrible range i mean that when i transform back into human form and try to cast it on the enemy they actually walk out of range because of the basic movement speed in human form.The upcoming change on PBE does not help this either.

  • Her sticking power in my opinion lacks.There are three spells in her kit that allows chasing the enemy. Cocoon,Rappel and Venomuos Bite.Cocoon is rather easy to dodge at the moment.Rappel's range is really low from what i remember and if i Rappel to the enemy champion by the time i descend down they walk out of range.I don't even.How is this fine at all? I can't rappel to the dragon anymore.Sorry if i sound rude but that's just bullshit. So the only reliable gapclosre she has is Venomus Bite.This is rather bad for a fighter in my opinion.

  • Her spiderlings die too easily from AoE spells and since her spiderlings provide huge amount of DPS i found this rather troublesome.

  • The movement speed of Volatile Spiderling.It's already unreliable as hell and doesn't deal huge amount of dmg either. The targeting system is bad or maybe intended.It loses the target if it goes into a bush. I mean yeah it remains true to its name as being unpredictable but it should be better. Also i run into a situation in one of my matches where the enemy Kennen was on low hp at top tower. I casted W,the spider locked on Kennen.However Kennen was able to trick - as you would do to other melees near a tower - the spider's pathing resulting in no kill.It might be an unusual case but it still happened. And if it happened already it will happen more times over time.Would like to see something done about it.

  • Her dmg output seems low compared to other junglers.This could come from Spiderlings dying too fast.

  • There is no poison available in her kit which is surprising considering her spider theme. It becomes even more strange looking at the name of her two Q abilities:NeuroTOXIN and VENOMUOS bite.

These are the problems i personally found playing with her.I'll try provide some suggestions/solutions to some of the problems i listed above.

Here we go:

  • While Neurotoxin and Venumous bite create a nice couple rounding out each other Neurotoxin could use something more. I tried Mage Elise but the range and mana costs are just bad on this spell to max if first. I suggest do something with the spell.It's just kind of there in her kit.Not satisfying to use at all. Amp up the visual at least.

  • Cocoon supposedly is getting a projectile speed increase which is nice i guess. For Rappel increase its initial range slightly from 750 to 800.This is when casted on a unit. However the range should increase the more time Elise spends in the air.Similarly how Varus' Q range increase works. This would allow for more juking potential while providing more counterplay by giving more time for the enemy to figure out where Elise will land.

  • Spiderlings now gain hp based on Elise's HP by a fixed amount or they gain defence.Somehow they should last longer in fights. I understand that they should be killable but you should also understand that the spiderlings provide huge amount of DPS for Elise. The moment they die Elise's dmg output drops by a huge amount.

More emphasis should be put on her Rappel,combo ability in her kit and spiderlings in general. What do i mean by combo ability?

When you hit one spell then another and you get rewarded with something awesome.Similar thing is what Nidalee has.Throw a spear then leap on the target. I know that Volatile Spiderling will jump on the target upon using Venomuous Bite but i think there should be more combos in Elise kit. This way landing Neurotoxin could be more satisfying. Example: Neurotoxin marks the hit target for x seconds.Hitting the marked target with let's say a Volatile spiderling will result in more damage,bigger impact radius,slow etc. You get the idea.

About Rappel: Less emphasis should be put on her Cocoon.In fact i would go as far as reducing the stun duration to 1.25 seconds on all levels BUT decrease the cooldown on Rappel by a lot for more juking,gapclosing and for better maneuvering in teamfights in general.

About her spiderlings: I max W first every time because for me Elise is all about her dealing huge amount of DPS along with her Spiderlings and less about nuking the opponent with %missing hp spell. Therefore i think it would be more appropiate to somehow help the spiderlings survivability.

What do you guys think?Sorry for typos.

46 Comments

CatSith7 votes

I have made a posts about elise and they usually get buried without any responses from reds. I do agree she needs more than a buff to her stun and MS speed.

Starlighte1 votes

{quoted}

I have made a posts about elise and they usually get buried without any responses from reds. I do agree she needs more than a buff to her stun and MS speed.

The buff to her stun seems to be solely aimed at the pro-scene, where Elise is strong because sustain/ganks/some damage.

There is no reason to pigeonhole her into a "cumshot" focused champion who either hits and goes in, or misses and waits for CDs (like Morgana).

Altricad7 votes

Elise, needs ACTUAL ap ratios on her skills. The reason nid cougar form is strong is because she has good ratios ( .5 or something) Elise has ONE good ap ratio on her 'w', which is sh*t to land anyway...

It'd be nice if they gave Neurotoxin and venomous bite actual AP ratio;s and gave her 'w' the maximum hp damage. Then again, that would change elise's theme of a early-game threat late game fall off.

She seems like an AD version of LeeSin , but very little-no use in late game. Her stun is frustrating to use.

But gl asking rito to admit their mistakes... it'll probably be another ~3 years before riot goes " we made a mistake, we're reworking elise next"

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Elise, needs ACTUAL ap ratios on her skills. The reason nid cougar form is strong is because she has good ratios ( .5 or something) Elise has ONE good ap ratio on her 'w', which is sh*t to land anyway...

It'd be nice if they gave Neurotoxin and venomous bite actual AP ratio;s and gave her 'w' the maximum hp damage. Then again, that would change elise's theme of a early-game threat late game fall off.

She seems like an AD version of LeeSin , but very little-no use in late game. Her stun is frustrating to use.

But gl asking rito to admit their mistakes... it'll probably be another ~3 years before riot goes " we made a mistake, we're reworking elise next"

How come you don't want the HP damage on her Qs? That seems most thematic to me, I can't see why her human W would have max HP damage. Her ratios are terrible and should really be buffed but I like the % HP concept, it's unique to her and her spider Q is tremendously satisfying as an execute. Getting a kill with it is just the best feeling.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well it might actually be good though... Since well Q is short ranged so it is hard to use late game when % would be the most useful But in laning/early game you can often get in range to use it without being screwed over or killed

Kuroi862 votes

8% (+ 3% per 100 AP) of target's current health 8% (+ 3% per 100 AP) of target's missing health

Admittedly not the highest base %, but easily the highest scaling %. Others gain 1-2% more health damage per 100. She could perhaps use one or two more base %, but her scaling looks wonderful.

Either that or a way to buff up her DPS. Her on his health return and damage both are pretty good, though she needs a bit more survivability for that to be super effective.

Champion Skin1 votes

Though she has no scaling on her E.. and R is kind of meh... (yeah I know it is pretty good... but... on-hit damage isn't the best or most reliable when you are building AP instead of tank/bruiser)

Kuroi861 votes

I know, E is full utility. With the damage potential locked in the rest of her abilities, I can see why they would do that, but in return she needs a lot of damage packed into her few damaging abilities.

And agreed, on hit she is a dangerous foe, but needs a very specific build to really bring out the power in that sort of play style, a build that would delay her being significantly strong until well into the mid game. As a jungler, I imagine magus into nashors into ap bruiser would probably be the best idea, Zhonya's, Abyssal, Warmogs. Something like that, it's not an ideal build though. =/ Heck swap out Abyssal for Spirit visage or something?

Champion Skin1 votes

Well as an on-hit bruiser I think Fizz pretty much does it all just better (he might be a little worse if the spiderlings somehow survive and do their thing... but that never happens they always die to some random AoE or whatever)

Elise Elise on-hit damage 10/20/30/40 (level 1/6/11/16) per hit

Fizz Fizz W on-hit damage if the first tick procs on hit then the on hit damage will be about 7/10/13/17/20 damage per hit And with the active effect it will deal 17/30/43/57/70 + 4% - 8% of missing health each hit (at earliest levels 1/3/5/7/9) Oh and it can also be increased by 20% if he has his ult on the target

Fizz just seems to have higher base damages and his E is really good While yes Fizz doesn't have as much utility as Elise has in her stun he still have his slow on E and ult (slow + knock up)

Oh and Fizz has better or the same base stats in everything... except max mana and range (he is melee after all)

Kuroi861 votes

Oh most champs with on hit magic damage I imagine will out damage Elise, hence why I said on hit bruiser instead of on hit melee carry. Elise also gains back health with each auto from herself and her spiderlings when using skittering freny. Also considering how good her scalings are, I imagine early AP from item 3708, item 3115 and item 3157 would mean pretty good damage for her. 14% current and missing health damage is nothing to laugh about.

Champion Skin1 votes

Fizz would likely deal more % missing health damage as Fizz deals between 4-8% of missing health every single auto attack so auto attack + Q will deal 16% of missing health at level 9

Oleandervine1 votes

{quoted}

8% (+ 3% per 100 AP) of target's current health 8% (+ 3% per 100 AP) of target's missing health

Admittedly not the highest base %, but easily the highest scaling %. Others gain 1-2% more health damage per 100. She could perhaps use one or two more base %, but her scaling looks wonderful.

Either that or a way to buff up her DPS. Her on his health return and damage both are pretty good, though she needs a bit more survivability for that to be super effective.

What she needs to be super effective is to target Grass types, Dark Types, and Psychic types.

A Superb Villain4 votes

She deals low damage, and no matter how many defensive items you build on her, she cannot tank effectively.

I love Elise, I enjoy her playstyle (and her Blood Moon skin is to die for), but to me it feels like she does not work well with any combination of items, magic penetration being the only exception.

Everything about her screams "assassin", yet she lacks the damage to be a successful assassin.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8wWozy8T,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-03-19T00:45:57.199+0000)

She deals low damage, and no matter how many defensive items you build on her, she cannot tank effectively.

I love Elise, I enjoy her playstyle (and her Blood Moon skin is to die for), but to me it feels like she does not work well with any combination of items, magic penetration being the only exception.

Everything about her screams "assassin", yet she lacks the damage to be a successful assassin.

This is my #1 problem with her. No build path is satisfying because she falls off hard no matter what.

I'm not sure I want more damage now though. I just played on my friend's PBE account (I know that sounds vague) and I feel like with her extra movement speed, full AP splitpushing is the way to go. She pushes horrifyingly fast. If your team stalls for half a minute you'll take down two towers before anyone stops you.

A Superb Villain1 votes

But does it fit to have her as a squishy, AP split-pusher? Is it suitable to her thematic as League's only Spider Queen?

Most split-pushers are excellent duelists or are an assassin (hi, Zed), but with her current numbers she cannot duel or assassinate anyone short of being grossly fed.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8wWozy8T,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-03-19T01:50:46.573+0000)

But does it fit to have her as a squishy, AP split-pusher? Is it suitable to her thematic as League's only Spider Queen?

Most split-pushers are excellent duelists or are an assassin (hi, Zed), but with her current numbers she cannot duel or assassinate anyone short of being grossly fed.

It doesn't suit her, honestly. It just feels like a natural result of someone with the game's highest movement speed, somewhat decent escape potential and a 140% Attack Speed Steroid. I'm not sure how good a duelist she is, which is definitely a big problem, and I've not really tested that out so I can't tell you anything. But yeah, just a bit worried that if they buff her enough to be an excellent duelist/assassin, she'll become probably the game's single most terrifying pusher ever. Like, she can take the nexus from 100-0 before Skittering Frenzy even ends.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well yeah.. but you would be screwed if the enemy had a duelist and sent him/her against you so that it would be a constant 1v1 and 4v4

metaworldpeace102 votes

Elise needs to be reworked into an AP assassin. Her kit screams "assassin" but her ratios/build paths/reliability scream tank. I think Elise being an AP assassin fits her theme a lot more than this ap mage/tank/assassin thing we have now. I think her W in human form and her q in human form need a lot of work in order for her assassin fantasy to work.

Tengrichan1 votes

Nobody plays with Elise?

Call Me Nana7 votes

{quoted}

Nobody plays with Elise?

I really wish you would have picked up Elise when she was top tier. She use to be substantially better than she is now, and most of her gutting is thanks to this asshole: LeeSin

Things Elise use to have:

  • Spider armour --> Much like shyvana's dragon, she gained armour and magic resistance when transformed
  • Spiderlings use to have huge hp bars--> now they can be killed in 1 hit.
  • Caccoon use to have a stun width of nearly 3x it's width --> meaning she could actually gank

It's sad to see what happened to her, she recieved the Victorious skin in season 3 for most influential. Now she has the 3rd lowest pick rate, next to Urgot and Poppy.

Her kit itself isn't bad, you need to know how to use it. Stay in human form when they're high hp Switch to spider form to assassinate.

q w e - r - w q (e if you need to chase)

The frustrating thing is that her kit is unreliable. You can barely chase with rappel, and you dont have access to ward hops, friendly hops like some other toxic kits.

EDIT: OP--> you're maxing her skills wrong. Q is a % based Damage ability. You need this to be maxed first to execute early. Max e second for stun time duration.

You do not need w, aside from waveclear but 1-2 ticks is substantial now thanks to new jungle items like the cinderhulk/ group stun/gromp/krug buffs.

Jamnon4 votes

Preach it.

She was shitting on Lees jungle. Riot puts a stop to anything threatening their posterboy.

Tengrichan3 votes

I'll try maxing Q first to see how much dmg Elise deals over time.It just feels wrong to max that first though but will try it out.

EDIT:I was not satisfied with the result.I'll keep maxing W first.

Tengrichan1 votes

please leave a comment even if you disagree

Abyssphere1 votes

I really like your post. I don't have too much to add because I'm not very creative but honestly I think you have great ideas. Elise's kit is a bit... straight-forward in the sense that all of her abilities work well together (She has a clear combo of landing Cocoon and then throwing out human burst, then leaping into spider form burst to execute) but they don't actually have any combos. The only inter-related abilities on her kit are Volatile Spiderling and Venomous Bite, which (as you said) have the interesting interaction where if you have a Volatile Spiderling on the map and activate Venomous Bite, your Spiderling will instantly jump to whoever you targeted with Venomous Bite. But her kit could use more stuff like that imo.

Neurotoxin applying a mark is a really good idea. I do think the current HP % damage is thematic and fitting but at the same time it is a pretty bland spell all the same and amplifying the damage in the rest of her kit would work really well imo. I think giving extra effects to her spells if they've hit someone affected by Neurotoxin would also be really cool (like Human W applying a slow as you suggested) but she's already overloaded arguably so I don't think that's something she could be given.

I also generally agree that tankier Spiderlings would be a great idea, so thumbs up there too.

Two Right Wings 1 votes

All Elise needs is true untargetability on her rappel and a Lower mana cost on her human Q. Tankier spiderlings would be nice but also probably too strong. Dying to ignite, zed, Vlad, autos, tower shots, poison, etc while rappelled happens at least twice a game for me in plat. If I'm fast enough and good enough to dodge a skill at the right time, I feel like I should be rewarded for that.

Champion Skin1 votes

Ignite? All untargetability are hit by DoTs and tethers (like Morgana ult or Fiddle drain) if these were cast before the untargetability ability was cast (Zhonyas is different because it makes you completely invulnerable not simply untargetable)

Ariaflux1 votes

The stuff you mentioned feels pretty accurate to me.

I think all she needs are numbers change, but I'm curious what was Riot's reasoning to nerf her to such levels in the first place (do they think her kit is unhealthy?). I remember back when she was top pick/ban and people were crying for her nerfs. It seems that it should be easy to buff her back up by just reverting some of the number nerfs but there have to be some reason why Riot is going about it so slowly and carefully.

Jamnon1 votes

Who?

LeeSin

No one else in THESE jungles.

Baron of Bread1 votes

I picked up Elise as my first jungle champion around the end of Season 3, right before her nerfs started to come raining down. I looked at her and I thought "Hot dang! You can be a spider monster!".

I really liked her at first, and I still liked her some when her damage took a hit. Unfortunately after another round of nerfs I stopped having nearly as much fun; Elise never felt like she should be a tanky champion. She just felt unrewarding to play (Note: I like to take Sej, Sion and Amumu jungle so I do like real tanks); more like a spider you find just chilling on the floor before you stomp it than like any kind of monster.

I think anything that helps bring her back to an assassin/mage type of champ is the way to go. If that is by letting her spiderlings stick around to actually do something other than maybe blocking one skillshot, that's great. If it is by just giving her more damage, that is good too. In any case, I just want to be able to creep up on an unsuspecting laner and eat their head (just feels like an Elise thing to do). I want her to stop being just some spider you find in your sink; I want her to be the spider queen again.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well for people to build damage on Elise she should probably get some better ratios... that would be a good start...

And well the spiderlings doesn't really fit with the whole assassin thingy... as the spiderlings deal sustained damage but assassins are usually squishy and relies on getting in and out fast by killing their target quickly with burst damage

And melee + sustained damage = some weird bruiser thingy... (usually)

TheRainInSpain1 votes

As a tank, she has ungodly mobility potential (tanks really shouldn't be wall hopping without having to ult). She also still have quite a bit of damage, for a tank, close to or exceeding a number of bruisers. And her CC is not on the level where she can initiate on top of a five man team, even if she would survive.

Basically, her kit puts her into the Assassin/Fighter area. People just think she is a tank, because she isn't god tier Lee Sin. At best you could call Elise an AP bruiser. But she's not a full tank.

Now, if Elise were to be considered a full tank (aka, Malphite and Nautilus area), I would imagine her stun would be upped to stun five people at once.

Champion Skin1 votes

Ungodly mobility? What are you talking about? Her mobility is pretty much the same as amumus mobility... being able to jump to an enemy... And yes she certainly isn't the best tank as her CC is a bit lacking and too unreliable for her to be a tank

The problem with Elise is that it is usually best to build her as tank or maybe magic pen... because her ratios are so bad it isn't worth it... And her scaling into late game is also rather horrible given that she doesn't actually have an ult... and she pretty much turns into a stun bot (better hit that stun)

TheRainInSpain1 votes

Targeted enemy, any targeted enemy within vision and range. It's no LeBlanc jumps, but it puts Elise at level with Lee Sin's Q. But unlike his Q, which is a SKILLSHOT (not that it matters to a good player...), Elise targets the enemy she wants to jump on from the get go. Yes, it costs mana. Yes, it is very obvious. Yes, people can walk away from her. But that's katarina's mobility regardless. Being able to ignore the frontline, assassinate a carry (and she does still hurt with Mpen), and stun one of her protectors as your frontline engages. It's not invisibility like with Talon, or mad shadow hopping with Zed, but she's an assassin. When's the last time you saw a full tank Zed, Talon, Fizz, Teemo, Ahri, or Vayne? They're all assassins, like Elise, so they should be built, like Elise, which tends to be built full tank.

Puaru1 votes

{quoted}

As a tank, she has ungodly mobility potential (tanks really shouldn't be wall hopping without having to ult).

Uhh... Jarvan, Vi, Amumu, Aatrox, Rek'sai, Tryndamere, Sejuani?

TheRainInSpain1 votes

A Tank has little or no damage outside a possible execution ultimate and comes with heavy, typically hard, crowd control.

A Bruiser (or as Rito likes to say, Heavier Fighter), has fewer crowd control options which focus on singular targets. Bruisers have much higher damage potential, but with nearly the same defense as a Tank. Their primary weakness is being unable to really engage onto enemy team. Garen is a Bruiser. Galio is a Tank.

  • Jarvan, Vi, Aatrox, and Rek'Sai are Bruisers. Jarvan and Vi can either be built Bruiser or Tank, because of their versatile kits. Aatrox and Rek'Sai are pure Bruisers, because they lack hard teamwide CC and also damage a significant amount of damage. Tanks don't build pure damage items. Tanks that build hybrid items do so for utility, sustain, or clearing power (Cinderhulk, Sunfire, Rylai, Mallet, ROA).

  • Amumu and Sejuani are tanks. Unlike the above Bruisers, tanks have less damage (if any noticeable damage period) and a lot more CC. They also have heavy team wide level CC.

  • Tryndamere is a full blown carry Fighter. Having an invincibility ultimate does not mean you're a tank, like Malphite. If that was true, Kayle ... who ALSO have an invincibility ultimate, would be the best tank in game for soaking up damage. Fiora, Fizz, and Master Yi would be tanks because you can't damage untargeteable champions.

Danica17081 votes

Well, I haven't really played much Elise recently, but she used to be my main, and while this was back in season 3, her ratios haven't been changed much, so I mean, my build might still be decent if not ideal. (Keep in mind I was new when I built this, so I know it's not perfect) Start item 1056 , go into item 3010 , get item 3020 , then finish item 3027 , depending on what you need go into either item 3001 or item 3068 then go for the other, item 3135 and item 3089 or item 3157 . So final build would look like item 3020 item 3027 item 3001 item 3068 item 3089 item 3135 , obviously switchign things out as needed depending on the situation. I would sometimes go for a item 3143 or item 3065 or item 3102 if I needed more defenses, but I would get item 3151 if I could use the damage.

item 3027 helps with her mana problems early, and it's just a good item anyway because of the health, mana, and AP, plus the passive heal on level up is always nice. She likes penetration a lot for obvious reasons, and item 3001 synergizes well with item 3068 , plus it gets benefits from all the other penetration in the build. I didn't really have runes set up at the time cuz I was really new to the game, same with masteries, I mained Elise before I hit level 30, and the masteries have changed a lot. Also, I would play her top lane just a note. Which is why I didn't have any jungler items on there.

Currently, I would run one of two rune pages on her depending on my teams needs, my AP with armor page (M Pen marks, armor seals, AP glyphs, and AP Quints) or my tank page (M Pen marks, armor seals, MR/ level glyphs, and % max health Quints), and either my AP masteries or tank masteries depending on what was needed (21/0/9 for AP or 9/21/0 for tank). I max Q>R>W>E, taking W first because of the lower mana cost early.

I'm not really sure if this would still be viable, but hey. It's what I used to do and I was really good at Elise top lane. I won lane about 80% of the time. The other 20% I was getting camped and was a noob so I didn't know how to deal with it lol. Then again I was about the only good Elise in my elo at the time so there's that.... Anyway, hope this helps someone, even if it's just to know what not to do XD

ThePlasticSpork1 votes

My ideas for how Elise could be changed are at the bottom of the post, but first here's why Elise is the way she is now.

There's a good reason her human form Q isn't very good - there was a point in time where lane Elise was really strong because she had a high damage, low CD targeted poke, and that was her human form Q. Much of that damage was shifted over to her spider form Q to force some risk into her kit - at which point people then just took her into the jungle since her poke was nerfed and continued to dominate with her extremely powerful early ganks. Her jungling was incredibly strong at one point, and she was basically just another Lee Sin - easy gapclosing followed by strong damage with some utility thrown in the side.

Her rappel is already a really strong ability. It functions as a gap closer, a free zhonyas, and occasionally as an escape. It's only natural for an ability with so many different functions to have a high cooldown. It's range as a gap closer is honestly already pretty high.

I actually think making spiderling stats scale with Elise's own tanky stats is a fairly good idea, since it discourages the full mag pen build that she did back when she was popular (basically, percentage HP damage + tons of pen = OP) and encourages a more bruiser like Elise. The problem with this is that her kit is currently slanted towards damage rather than utility, so if you wanted something like this you would probably have to accept further buffs to either her stun or simply having one of her other abilities changed entirely, exchanging damage for utility.

When her spiderlings have strong survivability they allow her to simply avoid massive amounts of damage in the jungle - they gave her some of the healthiest clears before you even factor in the sustain. That's why her spiderlings are the way they are now. Maybe they could be reverted somewhat since the jungle is more difficult now, but that's why they are the way they are. Elise having strong clears isn't necessarily a problem, but if she's ever strong with her current kit then she has no clear weaknesses, except for maybe a somewhat low amount of utility. This is the exact same reason that people hate Lee Sin, and I don't really see why Elise should be an exception to that hatred, because she's much the same way.

Essentially, I think Elise has a few problems. The first is that she's a generalist with no clear weaknesses like Lee Sin - if her kit is in a viable state, there's not much you can do to exploit her weaknesses. The second is that her kit is halfway split between bruiser and assassin - her human abilities are almost all oriented towards picking a single target like a mage (stun and then drop a bunch of damage), while her spider abilities are a weird mix of bruiser and assassin. She has mage, bruiser, and assassin all stuffed into a single kit. I personally think her mage and assassin elements should be reduced in favor of her bruiser ones.

So here's what I think should be done. Her utility should be improved in exchange for some damage - for example, her human W could maybe lose some damage in exchange for a really powerful AOE slow. Then her cocoon could perhaps be buffed (somehow make it so the stun can affect multiple targets? I dunno). I also think her spiderlings should scale based on her tankiness (for example, they have a percentage of her health, armor, and magic resist), but she should lose the sustain portion to offset how strong this might make her clear and dragon pressure. Finally, I think her spider Q should instead make it so that her spiders and her own autoattacks apply a stacking poison effect. This offers synergy with the attack speed portion of her spider W, as well as rewarding her for building tankier. The tankier her spiderlings, the longer they'll last to apply more poisons, and the more autos she can fit in herself because she's no longer instantly melting in fights. Perhaps we could introduce some sort of set up with her human Q (for example, human Q increases the poison damage that the target receives from Elise for the next x seconds), and I think that changing her human Q away from percentage health in exchange for amping the poison effect could be a good idea. This largely eliminates the assassin portions of her kit in exchange for promoting a tanky DPS sort of build. Finally, to complement all this, I think her rappel would need to be made so that you can actually use the gap closer part near instantly - this would make it almost a sort of blink. Alternatively, we could simply increase the range or perhaps apply the "charging" effect proposed in the OP.

This would probably change Elise too much for most peoples taste, but I think changes along the lines of forcing her into a single playstyle rather than being a Lee Sin like generalist are what she needs if she wants to ever be buffed into viability. They don't need to be my changes, but she needs to either be an assassin, a tank, a bruiser, or a mage, not something in between the 4.

Tengrichan1 votes

I played her in the PBE and after her release and played her at top several times.I know the reasoning behind the human form Q changes.But now the spell is just bad.The dmg/manacost ratio is too low. The changes you mentioned are really nice.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well one thing that makes Lee Sin so annoying is that he can almost always get away... oh no going in with Q wasn't a good idea... no worried I can just ward jump away... and if all else fails just give them a kick to the face bonus points if you kick them into any other people foolishly trying to chase Lee Sin Unless Lee Sin has pretty much all of his abilities on cooldown... he has an out... While most other champion has their engage ability as their only disengage as well... Like Sejuani.. her Q is her only way in and out and the same with Jax and lots of other champions

And for Elise... well she doesn't really have a way out of a fight other then stunning one target and hoping there is a minion or monster nearby to jump to

Puaru1 votes

{quoted}

Her rappel is already a really strong ability. It functions as a gap closer, a free zhonyas, and occasionally as an escape. It's only natural for an ability with so many different functions to have a high cooldown. It's range as a gap closer is honestly already pretty high.

Repel is not a free zhonya's. Zhonya makes a champion immune to everything, repel makes Elise untargetable. Huge difference.

straight4free1 votes

I think she just flat out needs to be reworked. Her kit is too generalist for her to be strong without crowding out other champions.

Varnoc1 votes

Dropping this here, a soft rework discussion for Elise, I've put up, looking for thoughts on it if you're interested.

Tengrichan1 votes

I am not sure about the web destruction method.It should work as Reksai's tunnel.Standing in them for several seconds the web is destroyed and grants gold.And with that Webs should not be invisible. So the enemy goes into the web to destroy it you can jump on them at that moment. Anyway i like the whole rework all in all.

Varnoc1 votes

Sounds reasonable to me, I'll make the change

EDIT: Change complete

urth1g1 votes

I actually enjoy playing elise and i would love if she would get some buffs, but i will be honest. I played a lot of games with her and i don't think she needs massive buffs. I have played nearly 20 games this season and for now i sit at 70% winrate. I know that 20 games isn't that much but nearly in all of them i did good... Since the cinderhulk i find winning games with her even easier.

Didn't write this to brag, i just don't want her to be buffed too much and then people realize she is strong and riot overnerf her... Or even worse to buff her like they did with veigar, that would be scarry :D

But i agree with you, she could use love because i play her fulltank and giving her some more damage in human form would be awesome.

I just don't understand why is her winrate so low when she is by no means weak champion.

Tengrichan1 votes

Can we get a red response here?Are our changes reasonable or not?What are the plans for her in longer term?Will she receive a full,partial rework in the future?

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