Controversial Support Help: Warding Item changes?

Nalisai··5 votes·1,037 views

Supports need help with itemization and gold generation. That's a given. However, currently the only way to do that efficiently is to build a "ward item" -> item 2303 item 2302 item 2301 item 3092 or item 3401 item 3069 . (Yes, I realize Frost Queen's is not technically a ward item, but it DOES reveal your enemies, and honestly, is arguably the best of them.)

Building said item does some things effectively but not others. Pros - -You get access to a storage of 4 wards versus 2, plus a vision ward. OR -You get an active affect that tends to be beneficial more to supports than other classes -You get bonus gold if you're near a kill made by a teammate. -There are 6, allowing supports a bit of flexability.

Cons - -Takes up an item slot that could be put to better use, especially as first item choice can make or break a game, especially in botlane. -Makes you weaker than similar champions playing lanes. (A support version of a champ versus a lane version of the same champ will ALWAYS lose one on one. Try it out. Unless you need to build an unreasonably large first item - say NLR or BF Sword - odds are you'll finish your first item before any support who isn't taking a hug share of the cs.) This makes you vulnerable to ganks, especially if you aren't playing a sustain champ like Sona, Soraka, or Nami who have the ability to heal as needed. -Doesn't really benefit the person using it. Support is a team player, but when your first item gives you 40 AP versus the 100 AP most AP champs get from their first item, there's going to be a lot of discrepancy.

I understand you don't want EVERYONE building support items, but in reality, what's really wrong with that? Most support mains, myself included, tend to gripe about being the only one dropping wards all game, and then hearing people complain about how it's OUR fault they don't have vision. So let EVERYONE build a ward item first. But wait, that might be a good idea, but how do you balance it out?

Here's how: Junglers already have the answer in their jungle blades. -> item 3711 item 3706 item 3715 One builds wards, the other two benefit Smite. Why not change ward items so that they have better stats, drop the ward storage to 3, and benefit a summoner spell, like Exhaust, Heal, or Barrier by choice of item? You could even use the jungle blades 'jewel' system to vary it further between AP, AD, Armor, AS, etc.

As to how to benefit the summoner spell, maybe make the bonus play off of the champ's primary stat (per the item benefits) versus a flat buff/nerf.

As an example: Eye of the Watchers: (current) Stats +200 health +100% base mana regeneration +25 ability power +10% cooldown reduction +Gold 2 per 10 seconds Passive UNIQUE – TRIBUTE: Spells and basic attacks against champions or buildings deal 15 additional damage and grant Gold 15. This can occur up to 3 times every 30 seconds. Active UNIQUE – WARDING: Consumes a charge to place a Sight Ward (Stealth Ward) that reveals the surrounding area for 150 seconds. Holds up to 4 charges which refill upon visiting the shop. Limitations Limited to 1 Gold Income item. A player may only have 3 Sight Ward on the map at one time.

Eye of the Watchers: (revised possibility) Stats +200 health +100% base mana regeneration +25 ability power +10% cooldown reduction +Gold 2 per 10 seconds (at level 1), +.5 gold per level up to 10 per 10 seconds (at level 18) [<---EDIT] Passive UNIQUE – TRIBUTE: Spells and basic attacks against champions or buildings deal 15 additional damage and grant Gold 15. This can occur up to 3 times every 30 seconds. Active UNIQUE – WARDING: Consumes a charge to place a Sight Ward (Stealth Ward) that reveals the surrounding area for 150 seconds. Holds up to 3 charges which refill upon visiting the shop. Limitations Limited to 1 Gold Income item. A player may only have 3 Sight Ward on the map at one time.

'Jewel' Slot - Chiurgeon's Monocle Stats +200 health +40 ability power Passive - (Unique) Watchful Eye: Upgrades your Heal summoner spell to First Aid. First Aid heals you and all nearby allies for 100 health (+25% ability power)

'Jewel' Slot - Bouncer's Brace Stats +200 health +40 damage Passive - (Unique) Flesh Wall: Upgrades your Barrier spell to Protective Presence. Shields target champion for 115 - 455 (based on level) for 2 seconds. Any enemy striking the protected champion is terrified for X seconds (X=5% current AD or health? Don't know how that math'd work out).

This would get the onus off of supports to buy a ward item first, allowing them to build a different initial first item, as well as allowing everyone better itemization options.

Thoughts? Comments? Did you read all of that? :p

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

[EDIT: Editted my failure to fix gold generation in my revised Eye. Sorry. My bad.

20 Comments

dark100dark1002 votes

Wouldn't be bad. However these suggests are always ignored by riot based on past experiences. They want supports weak. There was never a reasonable explanation.

I suspect some managers just hate supports because they were outplayed by some of them and they want them even weaker.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't be bad. However these suggests are always ignored by riot based on past experiences. They want supports weak. There was never a reasonable explanation.

I suspect some managers just hate supports because they were outplayed by some of them and they want them even weaker.

I don't think there's really a fair way to give supports a bump. In terms of say the gold deficit, If support itemization produced enough gold to catch up with Solo lanes farming, anyone could pretty much buy the items and make the act of farming pointless. And even if you tried, it would be impossible to balance across all Elo. An LCS support is way more gold starved compared to his teammates, than a yoloQ support in Bronze.

As for the XP deficit, that's in part because they are in the Duo lane. But Riot is addressing XP rubber band mechanics, which help address this kind of problem.

dark100dark1001 votes

Depends on the item. Imagine an item, which gives -90% gold for killing a minion, but gives +60% gold if a nearby ally kills a minion (yes, you need to help the adc to farm efficiently). You can morph this item to support specific stuff. Also you can only buy this in the first two minutes in the game or if you already have this item or its morphed variant. This would be useless for a laner, but ideal for a support. Isn't it?

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

Depends on the item. Imagine an item, which gives -90% gold for killing a minion, but gives +60% gold if a nearby ally kills a minion (yes, you need to help the adc to farm efficiently). You can morph this item to support specific stuff. Also you can only buy this in the first two minutes in the game or if you already have this item or its morphed variant. This would be useless for a laner, but ideal for a support. Isn't it?

That sounds a little harsh, even for a support item. Getting reduced minion gold on kill, means you get less benefit trying to hold the minion wave if your ADC is back at fountain. Compounded with the fact that your lane partner has to kill it. (compared to coin which only requires that the minion dies.) I doubt I would take such an item over the current gold gen items, at least in my ELO. It's not really going to benefit the support role to make the support, that much more reliant on their ADC.

The other issue with time sensitive items is simply the reliability of the game itself. If I experience a client crash before the game begins, I may be screwed out of my support item just because it took that long just to restart the client. (Also, I doubt you actually need to time lock such items. Gold gen items are sunk cost if you don't buy them right away.) But if such an item was strong enough, a time lock wouldn't stop any player from picking it up, they would just work around the item. (Their was a point where FQC was getting picked up by Midlaners, and people were complaining about it.)

TheSnacken2 votes

I see where you're coming from, but it feels... Off. I used to have similar thoughts, but I think I just really undervalued them. They have a lot of quiet power, things that don't necessarily show up in stats.

Could support items use a buff? Probably. But I don't really want to see Frost Queen's Claim as a midlane mainstay again. I would suggest switching your builds up somewhat. Try and abuse Ruby Sightstone's second ability. I think you'll find you overlooked some of these items' existing power.

Erockandroll1 votes

Honestly, I highly doubt that Riot is going to make the warding item strong enough to be built in any position. And even with the upgrades you mentioned, you really can't bind support itemization to a particular spell.

As a support main myself, I actually don't have a problem with the current system. (More so now that we have the Eye items) But over all, I feel like to get the whole team participating in the vision game, it needs to be less about the wards themselves. And that's an aspect that Riot has been improving on, via changes in the Jungle. Started with the introduction of the Scuttler, then their was the Wolf smite upgrade, though that got replaced with the current Scryer's bloom. This gives us vision options before considering wards or trinkets.

InTheory1 votes

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Nalisai1 votes

{quoted}

Feedback: Your post jumps to fast to hard between some subjects and you lack a central theme that you follow throughout it.

You start with "supports need help with ... gold generation", but then you just explain some obvious things about the current exclusive support items and not mention gold again. Next you jump to something like "everyone should (be able to) ward" and then "there are different sorts of jungle items - some of them give you the ability to ward properly" (Yes support items have a similar option) and now they should interact with a summoner spell. Last you drop two versions of a support item where I don't see a difference between your current and revised version but that you nerfed it. Last but not least you throw in some "jewel" items without really explaining that.

Without commenting your content itself I advise you to stay on one point of your thread and evolve that without loosing the core thematic. After reading your post several times I still don't know what problem you want to solve and how you want to do that.

-You start with "supports need help with ... gold generation", but then you just explain some obvious things about the current exclusive support items and not mention gold again.

Yeah, I forgot to edit the second part of my revised Eye. My bad. I will go back and edit.

As for the rest, I thought I explained fairly well that I intended for them to work like the jungle knives, in that they are summoner spell specific and have a jewel slot (like the jungle knives have Bloodrazor, Cinderhulk, etc.). The nerf to the ward # was to help balance out the jewel slot and the face that hopefully more of the team rather than just the support might buy one.

Poro Snax1 votes

Supports are to support the team, I prefer utility over having more ap tbh. Support is not the traditional carry role so they don't really NEED to be damagey/bursty Your post kinda confuses me but as far as item slots a vision item or the starter support item is definitely NOT a wast of a slot, in my opinion. The support item gives gold because supports don't take cs, that is not how they make their income. As far as vision, I find sightstones a must have. Yes everyone should ward but that's on them for not placing their FREE TWO wards that they get anyway, there isn't a point for them to have a vision item when they have a warding totem anyway. If they don't place wards in their bushes that's on them. That being said, sightstone should be first back item anyway, why would you not want vision to see ganks early game? That just gives the enemy time to catch you off guard and snowball. Just my thoughts.

Dryditch2 votes

Half the time when I'm playing a supp like Nami, Raka, or Lulu, who specialize in shields and heals, that 800 gold is better spent on item 3114 because of its bonus to shields and heals. I'd pick up a sightstone second back, but by that point, I might actually have enough to finish redemption or pick up full boots and a pair of control wards or a completed FCQ.

By the time we reach late game, the team is either so strong that wards beyond a few trinkets on the flanks don't matter or we're getting shit on so hard that I can't afford to go ward on my own, and no one in Bronze is going to follow a support around while they put down vision.

Yes, Sightstone is important, but for 3 wards (when I already have a trinket and can just plop down a control ward to clear out vision), I just don't feel like it's worth my 800 gold that could be spent on mana sustain (equaling lane sustain for both myself and the ADC) or mobility.

I might be totally wrong, which would explain my Bronze-ness, but that's my rationale.

On tank supports, though... Sightstone first back always. Who doesn't want 150 health, 3 wards, and a sweeper?

Poro Snax1 votes

Three wards that don't have a cd time ever and refresh when you go back. I'll say again, if you have vision it's easier to see ganks.

It's of course your opinion but, you probably won't ever get out of bronze 4 like that LOL

If you don't have vision on the map you can't see where the enemy is.

Sightstone is much more than JUST the three wards, it's the fact that you can have 3 wards on the map at the same time without waiting for that CD of the free trinket. After recall it refreshes and you can place them else where and get more vision because again, there is no CD

I feel like with your logic you probably don't have mastery 7 on any supports.

I get where you are coming from, I used to think it was a worthless item too but that was in my first few months of league, I just personally find vision VERY useful.

Dryditch1 votes

Actually, back in season 4-5, I bought sightstone before I even upgraded the support item at all. It was a hugely powerful tool for supports at that point. The drop to 3 wards, the removal of pink trinket, and the buff to yellow trinket timer just make sightstone feel like a wasted 800 gold if I'm not on a tank support. (S4 I was in Silver, S5 I just didn't play seriously, S6, started climbing at the end. Sort of playing around in low bronze this season cause I don't have time to play that much. Capped in B2 for a bit this season, then dropped.)

Yes, it's certainly easier to see ganks coming, and of course sightstone should be the right buy, but situationally in low elo, I leave lane and my ADC dies. Doesn't matter if they're full health, sitting under tower and last hitting a wave. I leave lane to ward anything further than tribush or dragon pit, and the ADC just gets popped like a balloon.

I don't have mastery 7 on anything because I don't play any champion enough to hit that mark--barely play any enough to hit mastery 5. I started playing Nami at the very tail end of last season, earned something like 12 S ranks on my way up to mastery 5, and hit mastery 6 in just a few games after that.

Back in seasons 4-6, swapping to a sweeper felt impactful, even in low elo. Now, blue trinkets are already visible, control wards are prevalent in the early game, and the number of stealth wards teams place in low elo is so low that It just doesn't feel worthwhile.

I dunno. The vision game just felt best in season 5, and since then it's kind of gone downhill.

Poro Snax3 votes

I was only going by your current account on op.gg where it said Season 5 - Bronze 5, Season 6 - Bronze 2, Current - Bronze 4. Not that it necessarily matters, I mean I'm only Silver 5 and I only started playing league about a year ago and didn't start ranked til a few months until the end of season 6 where my first placement promos got me into Silver 4 then I only managed to get to Silver 2 before the season ended because I was busy real life.

I'm just saying, I'm low elo and I love having vision and clearing out their wards because that gives gold. I just find vision so good, I hate when I'm in another lane and the support doesn't get a sightstone and then hear "Enemy Team Double Kill!" and have them type 'I had no idea where they came from' ; then at the end of the game I lookd at stats only to find out that I placed more wards than support. Tbh that goes for games where the support gets a sightstone even. If I'm top or mid, I ward as soon as I have it up because it helps me know if the jungler is about to gank or if I see them place a ward then I can let my jungler know that they have vision there and to go around.

Though even this brings up another point where you can have all the vision in the world and even ping someone to watch out but some people are just too stubborn to listen/look at map. I only started in season 6 but I feel vision has been and always will be good it's just certain players that make it feel useless.

Dryditch1 votes

I feel you on that. I hit silver in post-season 4 because that's when I reached lv 30, so no actual record of it, which is sad, but I was S3 for a while.

If I feel like my team is making plays around vision, or if I'm playing with someone I trust to play off vision, I'll happily grab sightstone. Sometimes, though, the raw stats of increased heals or shields on a support are just more valuable.

If I stuck to supp and just put nose to grindstone, I'd probably get out of Bronze pretty easily, but I like to play Jungle and Top every now and then, and I tend to screw those games up because I don't play the roles as often as I should.

I do pity you for never having been able to play during the golden days of support vision, when you could get a free pink ward every 75 seconds. I think my wards per game back then was somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-30 in games that lasted only 30 minutes.

Regardless, my point was that blind obedience to a build path is often more dangerous than picking up an item people consider "core" on the support. As it stands, you get the same health from a standard ruby crystal, and you pick up 3 refreshing wards that you may never even get to place if your team is ass (which tends to happen in low elo) for the same price as a second ruby crystal, a higher price than two faerie charms, or the same price as a refillable hunter's potion for sustain in lane.

The wards last 150 seconds, which is decent, but again, teammates ignore vision unless you personally ping them 3000 times and piss them off.

I suppose upgrading to Ruby Sightstone is decent, but that's 500 health, which is more than enough to make up for missing out on any secondary stats except the wards, and it's a 1600 gold investment that you'd be making for the benefit of your active items, so you might as well pick it up late (unless you're a tank who can use that health), once you have those items (locket, fotm).

I suppose the ideal situation would be for a tank support to have actual heals/shields in their kit (Taric/thresh/Ali) so they could run Ruby + Redemption + Locket + FotM... and that's a pretty flexible build path as it is.

Silverjust1 votes

I think the amount of gold supports get is enough (I am a support main) If supportswould get more gold, it would just cause more mages to go mage support. Maybe they should make the goldgenerating items more interesting (item 3301 need something) or better ways to get gold and xp when behind

Nalisai1 votes

{quoted}

I think the amount of gold supports get is enough (I am a support main) If supportswould get more gold, it would just cause more mages to go mage support. Maybe they should make the goldgenerating items more interesting (item 3301 need something) or better ways to get gold and xp when behind

The problem tends to be that traditional roles keep going out the window. Anyone with some sort of CC can support these days, ADCs are finding more success in other lanes than bot, and a good half the champions aren't worth playing at the moment because of the current OP champs who, if you don't pick or ban them, you're going to end up losing. And that is what you're trying to play support into. Less gold, predetermined builds, and OMG BUILD A WARD ITEM! I DIEF CAUSE YOU DIDN'T WARD TOP FROM BOT LANE! WTF?!

Silverjust1 votes

I think there is a lot to improve on the support role, like buildpaths. But the amount of gold income should stay as it is

sobi9991 votes

I think since everyone in the lane including jungler in jungle has to farm whilst the support doesn't , there needs to be a way for supports to earn gold doing something instead of just sitting there with an ancient coin and getting all the gold. Anything will do as long as we get rewarded equally to all the other people that are farming. I mean farming itself is not easy especially when you have to trade in lanes.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

This doesn't fix the problem with wards / warding / the vision game - that the vision given by wards (the way sight is expressed) is very uncreative and boring. It's always a circular AoE of sight. The wards themselves are invisible, meaning you need a specific counter-item just to interact with them. It's also impossible to avoid invisible wards unless you can get information about their placement (which usually means already having vision down, establishing vision lines-of-defense before the enemy does in a given area).

If we had wards that actually offered unique and interesting ways of gaining vision and information, the vision game would become much more enjoyable. I'd be this spy-esque mini-game of anticipating the opponent's moves, misleading and misdirecting them, concealing information (which is to say, actually engaging in real stealth gameplay), and trying to devise clever security defensives (as opposed to the current way people place wards, with very little thought or planning.)

Could you imagine a ward that granted sight in a long straight line? Or a ward that gave vision in a rotating cone? Each of those would (should) have some rule built into them that either 1) allowed a player to preempt the ward spotting, or 2) avoid / disable it entirely, without giving up info on their position. In the case of those two examples, with the first, a player would know if he stepped into the wards line-of-sight via an icon. With the second, the ward and the cone-of-vision, would both be visible, but the ward would itself be indestructible.

Honestly, anything that makes wards more unique and interesting. Your changes to vision are really just changes to the items surrounding vision - they do nothing for the vision game itself.

IcyPepper1 votes

Ilike this

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