The Ancient Coin change was just a massive nerf to anybody who has to use it.

Bârd·May 14, 2017·6 votes·973 views

There are only three champions who use coin on a regular basis, .

The midseason coin change makes it garbage on all three.

5% CDR 2 GP10

Creeps occasionally drop coins which either grant 20 G or restore 8% missing mana.

(First of all, I must point out that those stats are just garbage)

are squishy as all hell and had pretty bad self sustain. As such, the old coin passive was pretty good on them; sit back and restore HP. It wasn't terribly exciting, but at least it worked. The new coin has no such regeneration, and forces them to put themselves directly in the line of fire to get their gold. is the only coin user who wasn't hit too hard. The loss of regen hurt pretty bad, but it's OK since he is actually capable of grabbing the coin and ducking out. The problem is simple: why should Rakan buy a coin when he could just buy a Relic Shield and last hit? It's lower risk for the same reward, not to mention some decent stats and the sustain he was missing.

35 Comments

AeszarckMay 14, 20174 votes

Thresh is another user, and I think he benefitted.

BârdMay 14, 20172 votes

Thresh almost always buys item 3302

BLACK REALM GODMay 14, 20172 votes

that's because people ignore the fact that the entire benefit of the passive is negated by latency yet since pros use it everyone tries to use it. the heal isnt that great. i'd rather have the cdr from coin. and now it grants bonus mana. if i want hp i'll get it from my runes.

BârdMay 14, 20171 votes

The hell are you talking about "negated by latency".

You don't need a 0 ping environment to last hit.

BLACK REALM GODMay 14, 20171 votes

you need a stable ping to last hit. doesnt matter what the ping is, but it has to be stable.

ZephyrDrakeMay 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JV9UrKX,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-14T02:43:34.252+0000)

you need a stable ping to last hit. doesnt matter what the ping is, but it has to be stable.

sorry but what? if you have ping so unstable to the point that you are unable to last hit you shouldn't be playing the game to begin with and actually spend time trying to figure out what is wrong with your connection

BLACK REALM GODMay 14, 20171 votes

no one outside of playing on LAN is going to always have a stable connection. thresh last hits with basic attacks like most champions, but his base attack damage and attack speed are low due to being a support.

you cant predict latency past a certain point and the lower your damage/attack speed the more likely it is for a minion to be last hit by something else.

ZephyrDrakeMay 14, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JV9UrKX,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-14T03:53:31.345+0000)

no one outside of playing on LAN is going to always have a stable connection. thresh last hits with basic attacks like most champions, but his base attack damage and attack speed are low due to being a support.

you cant predict latency past a certain point and the lower your damage/attack speed the more likely it is for a minion to be last hit by something else.

once again, sorry but what? check your connection! if your ping is so unstable you shouldn't be playing the game at all. My connection is fine, i have terrible FPS due to my PC but my ping is just fine and literally everyone that i know have more than a good enough stable connection. Sorry but stop making excuses for your terrible last hitting skills. Thresh has an empowered auto to make things easier for him.

I said it before and i'll say it again, if your ping is so bad that you have issues last hitting constantly you shouldn't be playing and should just check your connection

BLACK REALM GODMay 14, 20171 votes

i think you vastly underestimate how lucky you are to live in an area where high speed internet is widespread. i feel like i should apologize to everyone on your behalf for your ignorance and assumptions based on the few people you know or are you so arrogant you'll claim to know everyone or a vast majority of everyone under the NA server? and that's just one of the several servers.

even where you live if bad weather or a traffic accident happens to damage a line or interfere with signals your internet will suffer. say what you want, but no one outside of LAN connections has perfect internet all the time and no one can predict when it might mess up. that's why fight tournaments and pretty much all official gaming tournaments as far as i'm aware are always held over LAN.

there's a reason why Riot doesnt permanently ban over disconnects and poor connection. they do temporary suspensions and try to help you find out why your internet is bad, but at the end of the day they lift the suspension.

there's a reason why always online games do poorly when compared to some of the best selling online+offline or offline only games. just look at the backlash for the original idea for what the xbox one was going to be like and you'll see how much latency and poor internet affected that whole endeavor.

an empowered auto attack doesnt change anything. it's still sub par when compared to an early game minion wave or turret as far as consistency goes. you can watch the minions basic attack and if you're having latency drops while waiting for a minions hp to drop below the threshold needed to last hit you could end up missing just because a minion or group of minions does more damage than you do. and if all of the ally minions decide to attack the one minion you're trying to last hit good luck.

you can say what you want about my "last hitting skills", but it doesnt take a genius to understand what im saying. in fact because i know what im talking about when it comes to this and you dont then obviously i must have more "skills" at last hitting than you because this information seems foreign to you. at the very least i have a greater understanding of how latency affects last hitting. i wont pretend to know how well you do at last hitting, but from the 1 game you've played ranked with thresh that i can see you only had 25 cs.

i looked at some of your stats and compared them to mine and you have a lot less cs on average than i do. so... yeah. comparing season 6 and season 7 you've got no room to talk to me about last hitting. out of the champions you've played for season 6 you've only broken 100 cs on 8 of them. i had 11 with a very close 12. of the supports you played you average less cs than i do. in normal games i've played 62 champions. you've rotated through the same 13 trying to get better at them. as much as you play ranked matches with 369 in season 3 234 in season 4 316 in season 5 146 in season 6 and 39 already this season you should be better.

all of my ranked games combined for 4 seasons tallies only to a total of 318. yet you barely make it to gold 5. i fell to bronze by playing 49 matches 3 seasons ago back when suicide karthus was a big thing that everyone was scared of players trolling so when i'd pick karthus players would AFK and rant the entire match. that was back when revive and clarity were still in rotation. because i refused to take ignite and flash i was automatically labeled a troll and banned for 2 weeks by the reporting system and so i stopped playing ranked. i ended that season with a bronze v 0 LP and carried it through all of my last 3 seasons by playing the prelims to see if i'd get a chance at promoting straight to silver like everyone else, but the way it's set up is that you cant start silver as a bronze even if you win all of your prelims and more than anything 90% of ranked leveling is based soley on how many games you play and not so much on skill. i refuse to sit here for approximately 800 ranked games just to reach gold. it's not worth my time. uno has more strategy than this game and quite frankly it bores the heck out of me after about 3 hours. if it wasnt for the amazing artwork i would probably never play this game. the voice acting and the art are basically the only thing that keeps me interested. and hearing people complain every time i use requiem.

so dont talk down to me like you're something special. i can last hit just fine.

ZephyrDrakeMay 14, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JV9UrKX,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-14T06:33:57.548+0000)

i think you vastly underestimate how lucky you are to live in an area where high speed internet is widespread. i feel like i should apologize to everyone on your behalf for your ignorance and assumptions based on the few people you know or are you so arrogant you'll claim to know everyone or a vast majority of everyone under the NA server? and that's just one of the several servers.

even where you live if bad weather or a traffic accident happens to damage a line or interfere with signals your internet will suffer. say what you want, but no one outside of LAN connections has perfect internet all the time and no one can predict when it might mess up. that's why fight tournaments and pretty much all official gaming tournaments as far as i'm aware are always held over LAN.

there's a reason why Riot doesnt permanently ban over disconnects and poor connection. they do temporary suspensions and try to help you find out why your internet is bad, but at the end of the day they lift the suspension.

there's a reason why always online games do poorly when compared to some of the best selling online+offline or offline only games. just look at the backlash for the original idea for what the xbox one was going to be like and you'll see how much latency and poor internet affected that whole endeavor.

an empowered auto attack doesnt change anything. it's still sub par when compared to an early game minion wave or turret as far as consistency goes. you can watch the minions basic attack and if you're having latency drops while waiting for a minions hp to drop below the threshold needed to last hit you could end up missing just because a minion or group of minions does more damage than you do. and if all of the ally minions decide to attack the one minion you're trying to last hit good luck.

you can say what you want about my "last hitting skills", but it doesnt take a genius to understand what im saying. in fact because i know what im talking about when it comes to this and you dont then obviously i must have more "skills" at last hitting than you because this information seems foreign to you. at the very least i have a greater understanding of how latency affects last hitting. i wont pretend to know how well you do at last hitting, but from the 1 game you've played ranked with thresh that i can see you only had 25 cs.

i looked at some of your stats and compared them to mine and you have a lot less cs on average than i do. so... yeah. comparing season 6 and season 7 you've got no room to talk to me about last hitting. out of the champions you've played for season 6 you've only broken 100 cs on 8 of them. i had 11 with a very close 12. of the supports you played you average less cs than i do. in normal games i've played 62 champions. you've rotated through the same 13 trying to get better at them. as much as you play ranked matches with 369 in season 3 234 in season 4 316 in season 5 146 in season 6 and 39 already this season you should be better.

all of my ranked games combined for 4 seasons tallies only to a total of 318. yet you barely make it to gold 5. i fell to bronze by playing 49 matches 3 seasons ago back when suicide karthus was a big thing that everyone was scared of players trolling so when i'd pick karthus players would AFK and rant the entire match. that was back when revive and clarity were still in rotation. because i refused to take ignite and flash i was automatically labeled a troll and banned for 2 weeks by the reporting system and so i stopped playing ranked. i ended that season with a bronze v 0 LP and carried it through all of my last 3 seasons by playing the prelims to see if i'd get a chance at promoting straight to silver like everyone else, but the way it's set up is that you cant start silver as a bronze even if you win all of your prelims and more than anything 90% of ranked leveling is based soley on how many games you play and not so much on skill. i refuse to sit here for approximately 800 ranked games just to reach gold. it's not worth my time. uno has more strategy than this game and quite frankly it bores the heck out of me after about 3 hours. if it wasnt for the amazing artwork i would probably never play this game. the voice acting and the art are basically the only thing that keeps me interested. and hearing people complain every time i use requiem.

so dont talk down to me like you're something special. i can last hit just fine.

i am not the one who is crying because of latency issues not letting him last hit as thresh. Nice wall of text that i did not bother reading since its a huge waste of time. Sorry you live in a farm too btw

The MagykMay 14, 20171 votes

contemplated doing a tl;dr but gave up with how silly some of the points made were

PeepingPeafowlMay 14, 20171 votes

Hes the kinda guy that dies once and feeds the rest of the game. That disproportionate response is insane.

Linna ExcelMay 14, 20172 votes

Maybe, but statistically speaking, coin is very good on him. It's only going to be a matter of time before everyone discovers it.

ModKnightsKemplarMay 14, 20171 votes

If you check stats, Thresh's win rate is MUCH better with relic shield everywhere I have looked. Most notably op.gg, which I have heard that Riot acknowledged as the closest to their own internals.

LauchmelderMay 14, 20171 votes

Sample size.

Relic is used way more often, so it's a somewhat representative winrate. Coin on the other hand.

ModKnightsKemplarMay 14, 20172 votes

... No offense, but that makes no sense.

Thresh is considered strong atm precisely because he has a high win rate. That win rate is coming from the games with relic shield, not coin.

If the coin stats were useful (which you already said they weren't), they would be contributing to that high win rate. They aren't, because it isn't picked often enough, and when it is, it's actually looking weaker than typical Thresh, on average. Coin is bringing his win rate down, if anything, so it makes no sense to attribute his win rate to a low pick rate on that item.

LauchmelderMay 14, 20171 votes

It doesn't make sense to compare shield users to coin users though. If you used Shield for ages and now try to switch to Coin you will obviously play a bit worse for a few games.

Coin always was the more aggressive option. More mana = more hooks = more poke.

ModKnightsKemplarMay 14, 20171 votes

That's easier to swallow, but it's still ranked games in plat+. I agree that if you swap to coin, it will take time to adjust, but I don't think that's what we're seeing. I think the coin stats are probably autofill Thresh players who think coin is better on him now, but it isn't.

Frequent Thresh players are still buying relic shield, and they are having crazy success with it. As you've pointed out, most of the weight of his win % is from relic shield games (since it's much larger sample size). That means he isn't a ton stronger because of coin, even if coin is a better purchase on him now. Those crazy win % stats are from relic shield games.

The MagykMay 14, 20172 votes

didnt think rakan's autos executed? i find coin pretty good, the mana sustain is useful on a champion with its own hp sustain

BârdMay 14, 20171 votes

They don't execute.

You just have to last hit.

It's not that hard.

BLACK REALM GODMay 14, 20171 votes

the new coin is actually terrible for the people that were using it before. you're better off going with frostfang now if you're one of the older coin users. the current coin is actually pretty great for champions like zyra though. those mana coins restore way more mana than the frostfang. you can spam spells all day.

ChaddyFantomeMay 14, 20171 votes

Soraka isn't gonna be using frostfang instead of coin lol.

BLACK REALM GODMay 14, 20171 votes

idk. it encourages her to Q on her enemies which allows her to use her W more. plus it doesnt have CDR on the first item so she cant spam her W into death. without the regen of old coin theirs no point in spamming W.

ChaddyFantomeMay 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JV9UrKX,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-14T03:55:11.764+0000)

idk. it encourages her to Q on her enemies which allows her to use her W more.

It doesn't lol. All frost fang does it encourage her to position baddly more often tryign to maximise income.

Coin actually gives he more mana to cast spells and heal with. Its a net buff for good Soraka's and a nerf for bad ones that never land Qs.

plus it doesnt have CDR on the first item so she cant spam her W into death. without the regen of old coin theirs no point in spamming W.

??? More mana = more Q = more W. Not hard to get.

BLACK REALM GODMay 14, 20171 votes

good luck if you have to stand inside of your wave to get that mana. 25% mana regen vs 8% missing mana every 3 minutes is not a good trade off. you'd better be building mercury treads, and massive defensive items then. otherwise you're just going to suffer. all of the income items grant 2 gold per 10 seconds, but income items are best used early on. cooldown reduction is pointless early game as you cant sustain the use of the skills more than a few times because of mana not scaling efficiently.

regen is what matters to soraka. i've said this for years. spell thief grants more mana per second and you dont have to risk your life to get your gold. land 1 q, 1 e, and then basic attack and you've earned your entire rotation of gold.

ChaddyFantomeMay 16, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8JV9UrKX,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-14T23:46:11.010+0000)

good luck if you have to stand inside of your wave to get that mana.

LoL no u are intentionally trying to undersell the magnet range of the coins as well as how long they persist to exist before they disappear. This is a non-issue.

25% mana regen vs 8% missing mana every 3 minutes is not a good trade off. Now you are intentionally underselling how much mana you get back and overselling how much you get from spellthief. 25% base is nothing. it is like 2 more mana versus the more consistent missing mana from the coins.

you'd better be building mercury treads, and massive defensive items then. otherwise you're just going to suffer.

Considering im not running in front of the minion wave trying to Q people constantly, like you are, i fail to see how.

all of the income items grant 2 gold per 10 seconds, but income items are best used early on.

your point being?

cooldown reduction is pointless early game as you cant sustain the use of the skills more than a few times because of mana not scaling efficiently.

Coll down reduction means i can have my heal up more consistently in a fight or trade as well as my Q for more more sustain and the mana from the coins means i can keep doing it longer and without running myself oom trying to constantly stack spellthief.

regen is what matters to Soraka.

And coin provides better regen than spell theif. Glad we agree.

i've said this for years. spell thief grants more mana per second and you dont have to risk your life to get your gold.

It is literally the opposite of what you just said. You risk your life less with coin and it provides more mana, lol.

land 1 q, 1 e, and then basic attack and you've earned your entire rotation of gold.

And which boosted monkey is gonna let you get away with doing that consistently without being punished?

BLACK REALM GODMay 16, 20171 votes

the magnet range is wonkey. you can get coins to flow to you if you use a global skill and other times you can be standing right on top of a coin and it wont collect.

my point being that income items are best used early on. that's literally the entire point.

cooldown reduction doesnt matter early game because you dont have enough mana to spam any spells regardless how often they're up. especially not W because it requires 10% max hp. cooldown reduction starts helping mid game when you've bought a mana item or some mana regen items and your base mana has grown due to levels. 8% max mana is only good on a champion with 600+mana becaust it grants enough mana for a 48 mana spell. most spells are 40-80 and ultimates are 80-100 with a few being over that. that's nearly double sorakas starting mana pool.

no it doesnt. early game mana regen provides more mana. mid and late game yes, but income items are meant to be used in the early game.

well if they're a boosted monkey probably all of them. as well as some that arent boosted monkeys simply because they dont want to waste flash or buy boots.

RákãñMay 14, 20171 votes

I personally get item 3303 with the rework on Rakan now. The quest reward is just so good with him imho.

BârdMay 14, 20171 votes

The quest reward is great, but it's not exactly an easy quest.

300 range isn't much to work with, and using Q to complete it is hardly efficient.

I recomend item 3302 . The quest reward isn't quite as good a 50% speed buff, but another 255-340 HP to work with at the start of a fight is pretty significant for somebody as squishy as Rakan. With a bit of AD thrown into your runes, it's not too hard to use the charges.

RákãñMay 14, 20171 votes

its not easy, but meh. I usually get it done in 10-12 mins in the match most of the time. Plenty time when towers start to drop and roaming phase kicks in.

Linna ExcelMay 14, 20171 votes

According to Meddler, it is very good on thresh ATM.

RevaliMay 14, 20171 votes

I'm happy they actually have to be interacting to get benefits from their playstyle now instead of sitting back being a one button wonder.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 14, 20171 votes

Ye. Already swapped to spelltheifs on Soraka. Works wonders if you take a refillable with you to start.

Blade of JusticMay 14, 20171 votes

I use coin with Zilean support.

EschetonMay 14, 20171 votes

Nasus : I for one like the changes. 8% mana is more than I had before, especially if I first buy sheen. And 20gold on the occational minion I miss? Great!