A Comparison between Twitch's Contaminate and Kalista's Rend

Bouffon dAnglais··30 votes·4,842 views

I did NOT create this thread with the purpose of "nerf kalista".

Rend: > Attacks impale their targets with spears. Activate to rip the spears out, slowing and dealing escalating damage.

Contaminate: >Twitch wreaks further havoc on poisoned enemies with a blast of his vile diseases.

Now that we know the basics, let dive in deeper.

---------------------------------------------------- Twitch ------------------------------------------ Kalista

Maximum Stack -------------------- 6 -------------------------------------------------------------- 254 (Practically unlimited) Duration of Stacks --------------- 6 -------------------------------------------------------------- 4 Base Damage ------------------------ 20-80 ----------------------------------------------------- 20-60 Base Damage Scaling --------- None ------------------------------------------------------- 60% AD Damage per Stack --------------- 15-35 ------------------------------------------------------ 10-30 Scaling per Stack ----------------- 20% AP, 25% Bonus AD -------------------- 30% AD Range --------------------------------------- 1200 ----------------------------------------------------- Unlimited* Mana Cost ------------------------------ 50-90 ---------------------------------------------------- 40 Cooldown -------------------------------- 12-8 ------------------------------------------------------- 14-8 Methods of Applying ------------- W(2 stacks per enemy) ------------------- Q (Conditionally unlimited to a single enemy) Reset CD Mechanic -------------- None ----------------------------------------------------- Yes Mana Refund -------------------------- None ----------------------------------------------------- Yes (20 per enemy, up to twice) Slow ------------------------------------------ None ----------------------------------------------------- 25%-45%

  • Range- Unlimited: From my experience, the LoL Wiki (it does not specify a range), a Reddit thread, and one time I saw it on LCS, as long as you have one valid target in range, you will damage every enemy that has a Rend stack. The same is not true for Twitch- the target must be inside that 1200 range to be damaged.

Damage with 6 stacks of Deadly Venom is [216 (true damage) + 80 (base damage) + 210 + 120% AP + 150% bAD] = 506 (120%AP+150%bAD) total (290+120%AP+150%bAD excluding passive).

Damage with 6 spears from Rend is [60 (base damage) + 60% AD][650%] which means 180+ 180% AD.

Lets say they both have 300 AD.

Twitch's Base AD at lvl 18 is 100.04 (lets call it 100), which means he has 200 bAD. Twitch won't normally build any AP (unless someone listens to that loading screen tip), so we can ignore it. Total damage in these settings will be 290+300=590 (806 including passive).

Kalista's total damage will be 180+540=720.

Now, you may think this means Twitch's Contaminate > Kalista's Rend. And this is true for 1 to 6 stacks. But Twitch's Deadly Venom caps at 6, and Kalista's Spears do not. At 7 Spears Kalista will outdamage Twitch, even with his passive. Also, don't forget that Rend refunds its mana cost, resets on kill and slows.

In conclusion, Twitch's Contaminate is stronger than Kalista's Rend in terms of damage in 1 to 6 stacks, but is overall weaker because of its cap. However, Kalista's added utility in the form of Mana Refund on kill, Cooldown reset on kill, and Movement Speed Slow makes her Rend's value a lot higher.

Twitch's Contaminate could use a little buff, but damage isn't the way to go with it.

EDIT: Since a lot of people seem to miss my point here, I am not suggesting we should buff Twitch. I just see a lot of "Kalista's E is just a better Twitch's E" and I wanted to break it down.

60 Comments

Sasogwa5 votes

Rend is overloaded as fuck I agree. CertainlyT creations - -' I think the reset should be partial or removed, and/or the slow removed. There's no reason to overload this spell with so much aspects

UltraSceptile5 votes

Yeah there we go, everyone complains twitch's E sucks but it actually is ok.

Fuck Kalista though based on that kit alone CertainlyT should be fired.

Chuck Charles4 votes

kalista's rend is not "unlimited" range. it has a very short range. I've played as her a fair amount and yeah you can't just rend from anywhere. the rend range isn't listed, but its rather shot range.

As for comparing twitch/kalista....you forget that this is kalista's entire damage output. this is her identity. If you nerf the kalista dmg to be the same as twitch kalista will literally be garbage because her entire identity is rend stacks. if you change this to where it caps or whatever, you have to build her like a regular ADC and now with 90% ad scaling...i mean. come on.

you also underestimate the power of twitch passive once he levels up. it does a decent chunk of change in extra true damage over time. with 6 stacks and some levels its fairly strong considering. now is his E as good as kalista's? absolutely not. But Twitch also has probably the very best ultimate for an ADC in the entire game to make up for it. play twitch for me. just do it. i beg of you. go into a game with a relatively good support who you know you can trust. and if you are a good twitch, the game is pretty much in your hands. Kalista is better due to her infinite kiting mechanic, but twitch has enough in his kit that the E doesn't need to be Kalista status as it would make his passive broken. What twitch honestly needs is some small early game buffs whether it be to his flat AD, a SLIGHT range increase, or significantly reduced mana cost on E/W so he doesn't go oom with essentially his only tools to protect himself from his shit early game.

UPfreely2 votes

if you read the post he stats that its unlimited in the sense that you can hit something else and rend you from a far distance because all stacked spears get rended at once and the minion or w/e you autoed is in range.

SociopathFriend3 votes

It's good to have threads like this that lay out the math for some abilities- on occasion I find that even level 30 players do not know how some champions work.

For context, I was behind my ADC and she was low and got Cait ulted before I could get in front of her, this was her response.

Vayne "WTF Morg- shield me from Cait ult you retard- god what a trash support!" Morgana "You realize my shield doesn't work like that?" Vayne "Bullshit, report this troll." (In all-chat)

Only Play Darius1 votes

Ahhh. A typical Vayne player acting as usual.

Shit like this is why I no longer support for Vayne in Team Builder. If I see a Vayne I tell the party leader he's got to kick one of us.

Penns2 votes

There are many very similar spells in League. And some of them are significantly stronger than the other. kek You cant say "buff Twitch because Kalistas E is stronger" when both have 3 more abilities.

Keevalroy2 votes

I've got it, we do what should have been done the moment the "cap" was set to 254, and actually put a cap on it. That way she can still keep the refresh and the slow on Rend without it being leagues and bounds ahead of Expunge.

WOW! That was so hard Riot. It took all of 3 seconds to remember what people were saying back before this happy hopping cancer was unleashed upon the undeserving innocents.

As to people thinking this is her identity, pick one: You can be a kangaroo because you hate the idea of healthy gameplay, or you can out-damage smite because you're in favor of terrible ideas.

You can't have both while you play this mistake of a release. And by the way, her theme is Spirit of Vengeance, not Soul of the Outback...don't kid yourself.

Moonshade2 votes

Kalista's main DPS source is her E versus Twitch being able to use his AAs for damage, Kalista suffers from the 90% damage scaling on her AAs meaning that if she doesn't boing around and get like 10 stacks in you her damage is going to be paltry. Plus people forget that Twitch's ult afford him some great strength in team fighting ability, since he can AA the backline champions to guarantee damage on them, and if he hits a tank along the way (save Braum) its not that big a deal since a 600 damage IE crit reduced by 20% is still a nasty 480 damage hit (roughly 1/4 of a late game ADC's HP), coupled with the fact that Twitch has one of the strongest positioning tools in the game with an 8 second stealth, a move speed buff while stealthed AND a strong 70% AS steroid in one spell (Ambush).

Kalista has no late game scaling on her abilities, and her main strength is being able to kite for days and have strong objective control through Rend, but one targeted lockdown spell or if an enemy ADC gets into a duel with her she's liable to die since she lacks the steroids and raw damage of other ADCs. Yes Kalista makes up for her lack of damage late game with a ton of utility (especially when paired with a strong engaging support), but the fact of the matter is that for late game hyper carry teamfights, Twitch is much safer and more likely to be able to mow down a team than Kalista. Why Twitch can kill backline while chunking frontline from a very safe distance, Kalista to reach backline has to hop very close to enemy frontline and becomes vulnerable to AoE damage, yes she can take out the frontliners better due to her insane kiting but the frontliners are not what will be taking your towers in under 5 seconds (unless it's Nasus ).

Also Kalista Rend used to behave as listed (so long as one marked target is in range all marked targets take damage) but I believe that was a bug as I have had multiple games where I tried to finish off a fleeing foe who was out of normal Rend range by AA > Rending a minion near me only to have the spears on them not pop

luckmallory1 votes

Saying a Champion needs a buff because another champion is strong is literally the worst argument possible

Miraweave6 votes

{quoted}

Saying a Champion needs a buff because another champion is strong is literally the worst argument possible

No, Rend just needs a massive nerf. They could drop the reset mechanic entirely and it'd still be pretty strong.

luckmallory1 votes

hers is applied to one person. Twitch can apply his to a whole team if positioned correctly

Miraweave3 votes

{quoted}

hers is applied to one person. Twitch can apply his to a whole team if positioned correctly

Kalista usually builds Hurricane. In general, she's actually applying it to more targets than Twitch is. It's incredibly rare for twitch to hit more than two people who aren't dumb.

HaIlMonitor5 votes

item 3085 says hi! Yeah its not all 5 but still....

Bouffon dAnglais1 votes

The thing is Twitch being able to apply it to the whole team isn't dependent on his positioning, but far more on the enemy's position.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

And runaans doesn't? You aren't going to hit any ranged champion if you are autoing tanks with a Hurricane. Twitch also has I believe 200 range on Kalista while ulted so he is technically safer to an extent until they get in his face which with a good team....won't happen.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Kalista's rend could need a nerf, but Twitch's contaminate needs a buff too, or at least his passive. Twitch is easily one of the worst ADCs in my book. His only strengths are teamfighting and late game, both of which aren't that good to begin with and all other hypercarries do better at what he does. He's just if a heavily nerfed Kalista and Vayne had a baby.

1v52 votes

He's not in the best spot but you're forgetting you can get a bunch of kills by going mobis and roaming, which is what most twitch players do now.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

Why would I roam with the weakest early game ADC. If I wanted to pick a roaming ADC I would pick someone like Miss Fortune or Ashe.

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

taking ignite/smite, going jungle and getting a (nearly confirmed) first blood by 3:00. snowball that lead by going 15/2 by 20 mins or surrender because you took a gamble sacrificing flash, and failed to close the game early. his level 2 ganks when enemies are level 1 are very strong, on a half hp enemy it just takes 3 autos, your E, ignite+redbuff+passive, and you can wait for the kill announcement after the enemy laner panic flashes back to his turret.

Bouffon dAnglais16 votes

I'm not saying that he should be buffed because kalista is strong, I'm saying that these two abilities are very, VERY similar, yet one of them is significantly stronger than the other.

luckmallory1 votes

You are right there. Twitch can apply his to the entire team at once.

His is definitely stronger

Bouffon dAnglais11 votes

Runaan's...

luckmallory1 votes

5>3

Bouffon dAnglais1 votes

then switch targets once or twice

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

Come on, they don't usually all 5 line up for your ult, ususally you end up hitting 3 as well.

luckmallory1 votes

except twitch does 20 percent reduced damage to other targets. Ruunan's does way way less damage. Twitch can wreak havoc on a team fight way more than kalista

Bouffon dAnglais6 votes

its all under the assumption the enemy team is a bunch of braindead AFKs, they won't ever stand all in a line for you.

luckmallory2 votes

Thats the same with ruuanans. The difference is that twitch can shit on your carries through your front line from behind his backline.

Kalista cannot

Jari3 votes

Kalista doesn't have to. She can literally just hop away from your melee's and delay their arrival to her, making them super easy to kill. I've seen Kalista's kite their way in a teamfight from the front lines to the enemy marksman to kill them.

luckmallory1 votes

Akali Annie Amumu Fizz Gragas Hecarim JarvanIV Kassadin Leblanc Malphite Nautilus Nocturne Poppy Rengar Riven Shaco Skarner Talon Tryndamere Varus Vi Warwick MonkeyKing Yasuo Zed

lol u wot m8

Jari2 votes

Akali just move right after the dash, actually simple. Annie isn't a melee. Amumu needs to land a q, so she just moves. Fizz is Fizz. Grags again just move. Hecarim is pradictable. Jarvan can pole move, but then what? She likely jumped out of the way for the knockup. Kass can't jump for anything anymore. LeBlanc is LeBlanc. Malphite... Is Malphite. Naut can confirm a knockup, sure, but it has to reach her and that takes time. Nocturne has to waste an ult (like a lot of people on this list) just to get over. Poppy is Poppy. Rengar is predictable and easily stopped. Riven gets outkited in this scenario. Shaco has nothing late game so no. Skarner is Skarner. Talon is predictable. Tryndafuck is Tryn. Varus is range. Vi is Vi. Warwick can still be kited if she's above 50%, Wukong's hope is the E R combo, which works. Yasuo needs to land that skillshot, which what can she do? And Zed we have QSS for a good reason.

And none of this is accounted for the team. If you are charging through the frontline without a plan, you're going to die. She can also ult up her support to knock up anyone that comes near her. What can twitch do? Stealth after 5 seconds...

Byakuya Kuchiki4 votes

like half of your arguments for was "x champ is x champ" "move right after the dash" when youre already dead?

Jari3 votes

When I say, "x champ is x champ" that means I'm really pointing that they're doing it right. AKA Yes, Fizz will do fine there. Malphite I put dots because I remember those ults... And good lord did they decide teamfights.

Also a Kalista player with their eyes open can move out of the way. I've seen Kalista's dodge Amumu Q's, Yas tornado's, Naut hooks, etc.

And he also used ranged champs in his example, which he shouldn't use. If kalista can auto Varus, Varus can auto Kalista.

WarlockLaw3 votes

He was only comparing their e's the rest of the kit is not being called into question here. Specifically Kalista's e is stronger than twitch's but twitch has more ways to set his up

Crett1 votes

item 3085

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

I'm pretty sure kalista rend has a pretty short range. There are so many times I've lived against a kalista by flashing out with a lot of spears in me. If it had unlimited range, at least one kalista would hit rend and killed me by now.

Bouffon dAnglais4 votes

the activation range isnt unlimited, you have to have a valid target within a certain range, but once you do hit rend, it pulls out all spears on the map.

Lintu Puck1 votes

as a Twitch player I think all Contaminate needs is a refund similar to Kalista's.

Fiveofswords1 votes

what makes you think that because of some superficial similarities in these abilities, they should be basically identical?

Bouffon dAnglais2 votes

I'm not saying they should be identical, I'm saying they should be on similar power level.

Fiveofswords1 votes

why? they are different champs. different champs are good at different things. this is like saying alistar and lux both have health, but alistar has more health than lux....make lux have alistar health. doesnt make sense.

Raptamei1 votes

But Kalista is so much more squishy!

Hmm...

Twitch has stealth so he can easily dodge incoming skillsh...

I know! Kalista is made by CertainlyT!!

O Fallen Scholar1 votes

{quoted}

I did NOT create this thread with the purpose of "nerf kalista".

Rend: > Attacks impale their targets with spears. Activate to rip the spears out, slowing and dealing escalating damage.

Contaminate: >Twitch wreaks further havoc on poisoned enemies with a blast of his vile diseases.

Now that we know the basics, let dive in deeper.

---------------------------------------------------- Twitch ------------------------------------------ Kalista

Maximum Stack -------------------- 6 -------------------------------------------------------------- 254 (Practically unlimited) Duration of Stacks --------------- 6 -------------------------------------------------------------- 4 Base Damage ------------------------ 20-80 ----------------------------------------------------- 20-60 Base Damage Scaling --------- None ------------------------------------------------------- 60% AD Damage per Stack --------------- 15-35 ------------------------------------------------------ 10-30 Scaling per Stack ----------------- 20% AP, 25% Bonus AD -------------------- 30% AD Range --------------------------------------- 1200 ----------------------------------------------------- Unlimited* Mana Cost ------------------------------ 50-90 ---------------------------------------------------- 40 Cooldown -------------------------------- 12-8 ------------------------------------------------------- 14-8 Methods of Applying ------------- W(2 stacks per enemy) ------------------- Q (Conditionally unlimited to a single enemy) Reset CD Mechanic -------------- None ----------------------------------------------------- Yes Mana Refund -------------------------- None ----------------------------------------------------- Yes (20 per enemy, up to twice) Slow ------------------------------------------ None ----------------------------------------------------- 25%-45%

  • Range- Unlimited: From my experience, the LoL Wiki (it does not specify a range), a Reddit thread, and one time I saw it on LCS, as long as you have one valid target in range, you will damage every enemy that has a Rend stack. The same is not true for Twitch- the target must be inside that 1200 range to be damaged.

Damage with 6 stacks of Deadly Venom is [216 (true damage) + 80 (base damage) + 210 + 120% AP + 150% bAD] = 506 (120%AP+150%bAD) total (290+120%AP+150%bAD excluding passive).

Damage with 6 spears from Rend is [60 (base damage) + 60% AD][650%] which means 180+ 180% AD.

Lets say they both have 300 AD.

Twitch's Base AD at lvl 18 is 100.04 (lets call it 100), which means he has 200 bAD. Twitch won't normally build any AP (unless someone listens to that loading screen tip), so we can ignore it. Total damage in these settings will be 290+300=590 (806 including passive).

Kalista's total damage will be 180+540=720.

Now, you may think this means Twitch's Contaminate > Kalista's Rend. And this is true for 1 to 6 stacks. But Twitch's Deadly Venom caps at 6, and Kalista's Spears do not. At 7 Spears Kalista will outdamage Twitch, even with his passive. Also, don't forget that Rend refunds its mana cost, resets on kill and slows.

In conclusion, Twitch's Contaminate is stronger than Kalista's Rend in terms of damage in 1 to 6 stacks, but is overall weaker because of its cap. However, Kalista's added utility in the form of Mana Refund on kill, Cooldown reset on kill, and Movement Speed Slow makes her Rend's value a lot higher.

Twitch's Contaminate could use a little buff, but damage isn't the way to go with it.

EDIT: Since a lot of people seem to miss my point here, I am not suggesting we should buff Twitch. I just see a lot of "Kalista's E is just a better Twitch's E" and I wanted to break it down.

They are different champions OP :/ why are you so dumb to realise?

OswinStrike1 votes

All I can say is

wat

PePsiLemoNN1 votes

Comparing 2 totally different spells ... yea.

Bouffon dAnglais3 votes

they're obviously not totally different

Beoridas1 votes

Its all about power budget. itemizations, overall strength rather than one ability. Twitch is different in this way and has definitely some clear powerspikes. Where kali does not. Im unsure if The OP's exemple is appropriate to have a clear idea about it. power budget is a difficult thing to assess.

chipi991 votes

Just played a match were kali rended a minion but didnt rip out my spears since i was out of range.

1v51 votes

I googled some, apparently kali's rend range only increases by like 200 (just slightly out of range) when you attack something else and rend, it's not infinite

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