Manaless Champions

The Space Cowboy·Oct 30, 2016·6 votes·1,598 views

Hey guys! Does anybody else think champions without mana should do less damage to make up for their spamming? They should widdle people down, not blow their faces off every time they are in range. There are a few manaless champs that aren't too abusive of dps wise. Good examples of kinda balanced manaless champs IMO: and pre 6 especially after the rework I'm sure she'll be fine. Then think about cancer like:

TL:DR Mana management needs to come with the reward of doing more dps, sustain, or cc than manaless abilities. Manaless champs should have to land their combos regularly to be rewarded until late game. Then let them go nuts for all I care.

87 Comments

Ruin LanceOct 30, 20165 votes

your logic makes no sense.

manaless champions still have to manage ability cooldowns, which most of the champions you listed are super reliant on managing their cooldowns. if your wind wall is down as yasuo in a fight you may screwed. if your abilities are on cooldown as riven and the enemy engages you may be screwed. if your pool is down as vladimir you may be screwed. if your e is down as kennen you may be screwed. also he does have energy.

it's not like manaless champions DON'T have to manage anything, so your logic is dumb.

WoonStruckOct 30, 20164 votes

Your logic is even dumber, though. In what way are mana champs less reliant on their CDs?

You're telling me that Trist doesn't have to worry about rocket jump? Azir doesn't have to worry about his E? Ahri doesn't have to worry about her E/R? Fizz doesn't have to worry about his E? Kha doesn't have to worry about his E?

Saying manaless champs are more CD reliant is utter bullshit. They're essentially the same as mana champs, just they don't have to worry about mana as a stat or for trades. Don't use energy champs as an excuse either; if you aren't an idiot, you will always have enough energy to use your entire kit.

Ruin LanceOct 30, 20161 votes

hey genius. when did i say that manaless champs are more reliant on cooldowns? oh yeah, i didn't.

the point is, it's a fucking stupid idea to nerf a champ's damage JUST because they aren't reliant on mana if they're already balanced around not having mana.

WoonStruckOct 30, 20162 votes

~~Nice edit though to make it look like my post is unrelated.~~

Edit: was looking at the wrong post; forum switched to chronological from discussion for some reason.

_ I was responding to _

it's stupid to limit a champion's damage by what resource they have. no two champions are the same and have their own kit, so it doesn't make sense to nerf every champion with their own unique kit because they have a different resource than a completely different champion.

Thinking he edited.

Ruin LanceOct 30, 20161 votes

~~i didn't edit anything? lol. you're just delusional or being insecure and trying to validate yourself even though you know i didn't edit.~~

WoonStruckOct 30, 20162 votes

~~You can't lie your way out of this one. You were saying Vlad was reliant on his W CD, Kennen was reliant on his E CD, etc etc. ~~

~~Keep bullshitting though, I'm sure it will take you places.~~

Edit: See above post.

Ruin LanceOct 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ruin Lance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8EK5aubV,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-10-30T19:06:03.010+0000) if your wind wall is down as yasuo in a fight you may screwed. if your abilities are on cooldown as riven and the enemy engages you may be screwed. if your pool is down as vladimir you may be screwed. if your e is down as kennen you may be screwed. also he does have energy.

~~it's still there... yeah, you're seriously delusional.~~

~~EDIT: also nice job completely missing the point of my post. seriously fuck off if you're just going to argue whether or not i edited something, because that's NOT what this post is about.~~

WoonStruckOct 30, 20161 votes

Re-read posts lol

PrimaquariusOct 30, 20161 votes

Full CDR Riven has almost no downtime, so there's one drawback

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20164 votes

just cuz they dont use mana dont mean they are resource-less

Akali Kennen Shen Zed LeeSin all use energy when they have no energy they cant use abilities

Rumble uses heat/generates heat when he is mid way his abilities does more damage when he over heats he cant use abilities

Yasuo uses wind as a resource Aatrox DrMundo Vladimir Mordekaiser use health as a resource

Gnar RekSai Renekton Rengar Shyvana Tryndamere all use fury or rage as their resource to empower their abilities or to transform

Garen Katarina Riven are the only 3 champs who have resource-less cost for abilties

The Space CowboyOct 30, 20163 votes

Those resources refill in like 10 seconds, or with fury/rage like one combo. Not even similar.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

they all have resource cost

only 3 dont ... and thats Garen Katarina Riven

Ark SorcererOct 30, 20163 votes

That is incorrect. The champs that use rage or fury is not a resource, in terms of costing an ability. It works with their passive or ult. With the exception of Shyvana and Gnar, Fury/Rage champs are better then mana-less champs because they have not only no cost to their abilities, they can empower the abilities with a full bar (Excpet Rek'Sai. She gets a heal). I did not include Gnar because he transforms, like Nidalee or Elise, but with no control. Shyvana's ult requires fury. I would include Tryndamere but that undying rage makes him king of the tower divers, so a huge buff on his end. Mana and Energy are the only cost resources in the game.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

tryn gets more crit chance the more fury he has... empowering his autos... and he consumes his fury to heal him self.

a resource ...

ren generates fury and it empowers his abilities to do more damage ... a resource

rumble generates heat as he cast abilities and when he is 50% heat his abilities are more empowered but if uses abilities too much or too often he over heats and cant cast abilities or dont have enough reserve to cast them ( like running out of MANA ) a resource

shy has to build fury to get to use her ult and use her abilities in dragon form there fore she has to have the resource full to use the transformation and have access to use her ult

it is a resource

just cuz it dont work the same as mana and using up mana to use an ability dont make it a non resource its just a different type of resource

Ark SorcererOct 30, 20161 votes

Okay, okay.

I was thinking resources as a means of costing something crucial. Mana and energy are close enough. Rage/Fury is something wanted (Context needed with Gnar) though not needed like mana or energy. You have none of either or means no abilities for you. You have 0 rage/fury? No special effects (ult) for you but everything else is okay.

Fine.... it is a resource.

I wasn't arguing Rumble, however, so you did not need to mention him. I do not know how he works to arue my point with him.

Just note that Mana and Energy are a, shall we call, "Required Resource" while rage/fury is a "Wanted Resource". Yeah sure Shyvana's ult needs rage but you gain that naturally and Gnar is completely based on context. There are times where going melee is not the best situation or times where you really want it like in a team fight, so thus wanted and context. This is where my 'confusion' came from. We are the same page now.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

but it dont stop the sheep and the masses from downvoted me thinking im wrong when i wasnt

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

TyrekGoldenspearOct 30, 20161 votes

Sheep can't use a keyboard though. :P

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 30, 20161 votes

lol apparently they can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrTkOEtCVFY

TyrekGoldenspearOct 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8EK5aubV,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-30T20:52:46.343+0000)

lol apparently they can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrTkOEtCVFY

Guyy FieriOct 30, 20162 votes

Ever tried building up a Gnar from zero in the middle of a team fight? Sure it might only take ten seconds but by that time the team fight is already either won or lost.

The Space CowboyOct 30, 20162 votes

He is in my small balanced list. He has windows of power. Meanwhile Riven like champs just jump around and get free trades every few seconds once their "Resource" completely refills.

Guyy FieriOct 30, 20161 votes

But see Riven doesn't get free trades if you don't let her. Sure if see Riven jumping into you and you let her stick to you, she'll win the trade. If you respect her knockup and stun though and stay out of range and then can punish her when her spells are on cool down, then that's how you beat her. Sure it's not the easiest thing but that's the trick.

For the record, I don't disagree with you that truly resourceless champs can be annoying. Seeing a Garen snowball hard enough to one shot a tank and just spin to win all down top lane sucks. But let's think about some trade off here. Garen has zero hard Cc. Say I have a Maokai into a Garen top lane. If those two champions leave lane even, Maokai wins the team fight as Garen won't have snowballed enough to just run over the other team.

We should also remember that as a result of not using mana, none of those champions really wanna build the Sheen items, each of which provides a passive that those champions would enjoy. Garen would use Iceborn gauntlet passive well but a good portion of the item would be useless. If Riven used mana, Tri-Force would be must buy. Sure Katarina wouldn't use Lich Bane the best but some players would potentially prioritize it.

Items like Rod of Ages and The GLP item could be items that Katarina much more difficult to handle as the extra tankiness would make her harder to kill but building those would mean the mana is useless.

Katarina also has no hard Cc and an ultimate that be cancelled by something as simple as a silence, making it more difficult to find the right time.

I understand what you're saying but the way I look at it, in the current meta at least, while those champions can be annoying, they have a fairly large trade off for truly being resourceless that allows you to find ways to outplay your opponent.

The Space CowboyOct 30, 20161 votes

Back to the same point, if you avoid any champion's whole combo you can punish them afterwards. The difference is as a mana reliant person after enough trading you will have to back because OOM, or will be short an ability in a later fight resulting in death, or make the 'smart play' and back for mana losing cs and maybe turret if they are AD manaless. I can beat a Riven with a nice riposte Fiora , or many other champs sure.

Basically we all have 4 abilities and cool downs caugh caugh Nidalee Jayce so that isn't gating anybody more/less than others save a few. However mana < energy. It's just true.

Ark SorcererOct 30, 20161 votes

Question: OOM means what? Pardon my ignorance.

CalabokOct 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ark Sorcerer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8EK5aubV,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-30T22:22:00.048+0000)

Question: OOM means what? Pardon my ignorance.

out of mana

Ark SorcererOct 30, 20161 votes

Thanks. Pardon my ignorance once again.

Guyy FieriOct 31, 20161 votes

I maybe didn't get my whole point across here. Riven thrives with a gold lead, as do most melee carries. But especially with Riven having very little she can do with a tank build, needs to be ahead and be able to just out damage everything. If I have a tank top lane who leaves lane even against a Riven, I feel good knowing that tank should be more useful in team fights provided we don't get outplayed.

I guess the reason I say that you need to respect her all ins is because Riven needs a lead otherwise your top laner (provided they aren't also a top laner who needs a lead), should be better in team fights. Not sure if I'm making great sense here so I apologize.

Ark SorcererOct 31, 20161 votes

I comprehend it... I don't completely understand it, but I comprehend.

What I mean is I comprehend the gold advantage on Riven makes her a snowball champion and a carry. Having one complete item makes them way strong at the time period they are in and thus snowballing happens.

But I don't understand is how not every champion is like that. Having a 15/1 Ziggs or a 22/7 Lucian should be the same as a 9/0 Riven. I mean granted, Ziggs/Lucian is range and thus when a champion can get to them, they can murder them in three seconds, something much harder on a Riven or Fiora, but Ziggs or Lucian could kill you before you reach them... but you here when a Fiora or Riven gets a lead... well... bye bye. But a Mage or Marksmen falls off easier and needs a bigger advantage.... apparently. This is where I get confused on how these champions specifically do that.

I understand the process; but I fail to see the whole application

If I were to boil it down, that would be it.

Ark SorcererOct 30, 20161 votes

Wait until the pre-season 7 Katarina comes around. She still has no cc but that ult still continues even if she is stunned.

There are some players who will get that Trinity Force on Garen or Liche Bane on Kat. I get the former item on Gnar becuase Sheen, kiting, and attack speed. I know the mana is wasted but everything else works well. +10 movement speed for 2 seconds on basic attacks (Good luck running away or catching up when in mini form), Sheen still works well, especially with q being caught and an auto every time.

I know that isn't part of the Meta, Most Effective Tatics Available, but that is set up by the pros. I can get Trinity Force on Gnar and it works. It depends on more than just the stats, the passive counts as well.

Though granted that those are problems for them. I shouldn't see Frozen Heart on Garen against a Vayne.

Guyy FieriOct 31, 20161 votes

Ya truth be told I'm nervous about all the assassin reworks....let's give rengar AOE physical damage so that he can actually team fight, that sounds great....

Ark SorcererOct 31, 20161 votes

Then you are going to love to hear these:

Kat's ult continues even after she is stunned...

.....

Or Akali can no longer be detected from whatever pink wards will be called in season 7....

.....

Or Kha'Zix going invisibly after going into different brushes after every 10 seconds.....

....

Assassin Meta here we come!!!

....

Tears of future pain falls from eyes

Handy Sandy Oct 30, 20165 votes

uses wind as a resource

isn't that just for his passive though? Not to actually cast his QW and E. It's not really something that he uses up to do damage.

Ark SorcererOct 30, 20164 votes

You are correct. Yasuo's wind bar, Flow (I believe), is not a resource, it is part of his passive that allows him to gain a shield the next time he is attack when the bar is full. Flow is not a resource.

Ark SorcererOct 30, 20163 votes

Energy regeneration is so many times faster than mana regeneration though. Give chase to a low mana enemy, at best one ability will become available. Chase a low energy user, give them a while and they will have every ability up again.

It goes like this: Fury>Mana-less>Energy>Mana ( Greater than symbol [>] for those who forgot math).

Guyy FieriOct 30, 20161 votes

If I go into an extended trade with an energy champion against a mana champion with both of us at full resource, I run out of energy long before the enemy runs out of mana. The trick to energy champs is short trades and utilizing whatever built in energy restore is in that champs kit. Sure energy restores faster but, take Kennen for example, his E costs 100 energy which is half of his energy pool. If he uses that without being able to restore any energy through stunning targets or going through a target with his E, then he has enough energy for like 2 Qs and a W.

Guyy FieriOct 30, 20161 votes

Also forgot to mention, energy regens at 10 per second without runes (which lets be real no one runs energy regeneration runes). So for Kennen again, if he's out of energy, it would take ten seconds to get his E available assuming he doesn't use his Q or W. if you can't close in on a champ in ten seconds, you wouldn't have caught him no matter what the resource is.

Ark SorcererOct 30, 20162 votes

That's the thing, energy champs regain energy after, for all them, 30 second max. Mana champs will need minutes from 0 to 100%. Point though on the trade. But Kennen's e goes down to 80 Energy, so it is up to your upgrade path. Just noting. Oh and bring that extended trade thing to Akali when she is about lv 13 and triple killing everyone. Early game is more their weakness.

Spicy RiceOct 30, 20161 votes

Yes mana champs need minutes to regen, but they have high pools of resource to compensate._

Ark SorcererOct 31, 20161 votes

If you ever played a mage, you can, within two minutes, spend all your mana. I can't speak for other groups, as each champ is different, but mages have high mana pools (I believe is higher then others) and can consume it faster as a whole then others.

Spicy RiceOct 31, 20161 votes

That's true, but in the same vein, of energy champs spam blindly they'll be out of energy in seconds

SwiftKitten88Oct 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8EK5aubV,comment-id=00000003000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-31T11:43:56.150+0000)

That's true, but in the same vein, of energy champs spam blindly they'll be out of energy in seconds

yeah. except they get it all back in a few seconds too. if you waste a spell as a mana less champ.. you need to just wait a few second to get your resource back

if you waste a spell an a mana champ.. you need to wait about 45 secodn for the mana of that one spell to naturally recover. in which time you have probably had to cast 3+ more spells

Spicy RiceOct 31, 20161 votes

Which is the point of mana increasing items.

Your argument, in essence, is that energy champs (not gonna talk about resource less as that's a headache) have it better than champions that use mana (primarily mages), because they regenerate their resource fast enough to use their spells within a few seconds of using their energy pool. Therefore they can use their abilities without worry of wasting them as they are up again very quickly.

My problems with your argument is that you are disregarding the fact of differing size in resource pool. While energy champs are stuck at a max of 200 energy, champions that use mana can increase their mana pool significantly, making it so that they can spam their abilities much more than any energy champ could ever hope to.

Ark SorcererOct 31, 20161 votes

With respect, I think you are not looking at the situation as a whole. You are looking at a part where a mana champion leaves base with full mana and can use their abilities over and over again, which grows the more mana you have vs. Energy champs are stuck at that 200. You are not considering the fact that, even if that champion has a larger pool, they will eventually recall because mana will get the best of them, whereas Energy champions never have to. (We are not including health or enough gold for an item in this instance)

Lets say we have two junglers soloing Baron. One mana champion and one Energy champion. For now, lets say health is of no concern. You are looking at the fact that a mana champion with a larger pool can use their spells over and over again without regards. Whereas a Energy champion will always run out and need to wait for them to get back up again. What you don't acknowledge is that, regardless of their mana pool size, they will run out and can no longer spam their abilities and are at the mercy of their mana regeneration while energy champs will continue to wait patiently for their energy to get back full and go at it.

Applying to the game, a mana champion will continue using their abilities, and until they recall (or get blue buff), their mana is not going any higher. Energy champs, whenever they run out, will have to wait a few seconds to get back at it. Yes, mana champs can spam their abilities more but when they run out, they are out and are gone. Energy champs just wait.

Another way to look at this is that even though mana champs can spam their abilities more, when they run out, they are at the mercy of their regen. Versus Energy regen is not really a thing. We can come up with graphs showing how much abilities have been used (same mana/energy cost, same cooldown for constant variables), while mana champ's slope will have a steep slope at first, when they run out, that slope is going to be really horizontal, compared to the constant slope of energy champs, that will eventually surpass mana.

Critmaster GarenOct 30, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8EK5aubV,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-30T18:16:58.950+0000 all use fury or rage as their resource to empower their abilities or to transform

neither of those champions have an actual resource. their rage meter is used to empower their abilities, but they dont have to expend rage to cast spells, nor are they entirely prevented from casting spells when their rage is at 0.

AvienalOct 30, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Space Cowboy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8EK5aubV,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-30T18:09:27.543+0000)

Hey guys! Does anybody else think champions without mana should do less damage to make up for their spamming? They should widdle people down, not blow their faces off every time they are in range. There are a few manaless champs that aren't too abusive of dps wise. Good examples of kinda balanced manaless champs IMO: and pre 6 especially after the rework I'm sure she'll be fine. Then think about cancer like:

TL:DR Mana management needs to come with the reward of doing more dps, sustain, or cc than manaless abilities. Manaless champs should have to land their combos regularly to be rewarded until late game. Then let them go nuts for all I care.

Its less of a matter of them being mana'less and how their kits work that can make it a problem. Its ultimately the same argument on why do particular champions with 'simple kits' that do not have any abilities with anything huge on them (Take Ahri's kit for example combined with how much actual interaction it has with itself) and are stuck with chunky mana costs compared to champions who either A. Have alot of ways to refund Mana measures to compensate (Cassiopeia, Annie, etc.) or B. Champions who i consider the major problem pool: Ones who get abilities with insanely strong abilities yet the mana costs seem non-existent on what they bring out even on mages (Heimdinger, Zyra, Anivia, Syndra, etc).

At the very least League of Legends needs to have its champions re'evaluated and decide on appropriate costs to create proper means on even if a champion has a insanely powerful combo, they should not be able to spend the same amount of mana when using a combination of 3~5 ability procs especially due to stock measures (Vel'koz for example) and another more simple champion might end up using the same amount or nearly the same amount of mana from just using 2 abilities yet they don't have any way to interact their abilities to produce similar results in damage or effects to make up for it.

It sometimes makes me feel that some restrictions on particularly 'SIMPLE and old kit champions' could get some restriction issues lifted or tidy up target interaction, such as how Ahri's W deals reduced damage for each fox fire that hits the same target but the damage is extremely minor just for even one fox fire, meaning its better off used to proc on hit ability effects at best. That or have the 'smart targeting' for multiple hit attacks having better targeting capability where they will prioritize champions and low health targets to not just simply waste the damage as a result.

In the manner of speaking for the mana'less champions you mentioned, Energy champions are at least partially restricted by the fixed energy system meaning they can't be as reckless with things like poking or unloading every single skill for 'weening down' a target's health, which has become a unhealthy habit i've seen in mobas to set up all in bum rushes, jungler gank or not. At least not till later levels where higher ranks in abilities give way to lower energy costs, letting them pull off the interactions for recovering energy in their kits.

The major BS starts is where some champions had powerful kit interactions, Yasuo was a problem till they finally got around to his R nerf, shame it took a 'tank yasuo build' to get them to take notice then fixing it before it could manifest, It does not help his Q's only rank up is increasing the base damage by 20 and he still gets CD bonus on attack speed scaling with his Q, meaning he can easily stack E and W to rush out his mobility and 'damage shut down' measures.

Though you say ' Gnar ' is balanced, i would say otherwise, his kit gets a duality mode even if it automatically changes every time the rage bar is filled and depleted. The fact he gets plenty of measures for sticking, 'jumping', knocking off max % hp and poking in mini form which gains move, attack speed and range as its levels up and his mega form gains tank power instead along with insanely strong cling and 'CC power', he can be a major lane stomper and just like how Ekko got so many gimmicks that were especially from other champions, Gnar got the same treatment, regardless if some is 'limited to which form he is in.'

When 1 or more new champions basically redefine the line on how much stuff a champion could get, then it becomes BS when dozens of other champions existed before them and only a handful of them can manage to stand out strong enough due to their kits, yet others can't work at all without making use of team mates or clever plays to cover for the weaker kits. Doesnt help a large number of champions have not been lowered on IP costs for a long time so they are more affordable to the new players or players with low budgets to work with.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

The Space CowboyOct 30, 20162 votes

Nice response! I agree all champions power levels and costs should be examined. I'm cool with spammed pea shooters and expensive nukes, somewhere in the haze of updates they lost track I believe.

WoonStruckOct 30, 20163 votes

First off, Gnar is cancer. Don't even try to defend him.

Vlad's probably healthiest out of the manaless champions.

He has an absolute shit early-mid game. Compare that to every other non-mana champion.

GULAG 4 UOct 30, 20161 votes

No, obvliously aatrox is because all he does is to heal damage off him.

Guyy FieriOct 30, 20162 votes

Each of these champions (except maybe Yasuo) if they are legitimately spamming their abilities, you can punish their cooldowns more easily.

Kat's shunpo can be punished if you used without gaining a reset. If Riven uses her Q but doesn't get a knock up, you can punish her. Tryndamere's dash can get punished. If Vlad pools at the wrong time. Zed shadow, Kennen E. Basically, sure, if you never punish them when they are skill spamming, you lose lane. But take Kennen for example. Unless he uses his ult-e-w on the minion wave, he is basically out of energy from clearing one wave if he fast pushes (this doesn't take into account protobelt to be fair). So if Kennen isn't landing stuns and finding ways to restore his energy bar, he'll be out of energy fast and then you can punish him when he can't use any of his spells. Same thing applies to Zed. If he isn't finding ways to gain back energy while spamming skills, he is out of energy in no time.