Im not saying Towers arent weak, but Hypercarry adc's are stomping on everyone in 20-30 minute games. If towers get buffed now, we're going to have 45 minute games with Twitch and Vayne mains in every game.
So Riot, Turrets DO need a buff but not before something is done by adc hypercarries.
Śhunpo25 votesThe thing that just frustrates me about ADCs is that they're never irrelevant. Unlike every other role where if they go 0/10 they have to open mid, ADCs never have this issue. All ADCs have to do to get back into the game is to literally pick up 1-2 core damage items and suddenly they can out DPS the extremely fed assassin/duelist/bruiser who has been popping off the whole game and has 2-3 items up on them. Sure, that's exaggeration, but it's true.
Case and point, I annihilated my mid laner as Kat and I made Tristana go 1/9. As my luck would have it, just because we couldn't end in the next 7 minutes Tristana miraculously got her Shiv->IE+a Zeal off to the side and suddenly she got to be 12/9 in the next 5 minutes. Sure, her team certainly helped her, but the numbers she was dealing in terms of damage was absolutely obnoxious.
Want another example or a few just to be safe. Twitch, Xayah, Varus, Kog'maw, Vayne. All of those champions SHOULD be bloody late game hyper carries, but that couldn't be further from the truth since the moment they pick up their first 1-2 core damage items they just turn into these walking artilleries with either an excess of flank-ability or an excess amount of utility (CC) for the team.
Personally I just think that Precision is still far too broken on ADCs and the decision to make it primarily for ADCs was a stupid choice in terms of gameplay design. But they can't nerf it too hard otherwise it impacts the classes who actually have no other proper tree to function with, so bruisers. Like....why does the ADC class get this tree almost exclusively for them and yet every other class' tree is so "eh" compared to theirs (in terms of functionality at least, different story balance wise)?
It also doesn't help that Riot has made the game legitimately ONLY about bot lane, specifically catering to the AD carry. Seriously, we used to have to rely on other lanes to win, now you legit just forcefully win bot lane if they're not winning already and wow....you suddenly win the game. Literally the macro to win the fucking game in higher elos is you just spoonfeed your bot lane until your ADC auto carries you through objectives, teamfights and sieges. How that is healthy to Riot we will never know.
But yeah, you can never fully lockout an ADC from turning the game around. It's pretty disgusting. (Unless you match an ADC against an ADC)
Hügö4 votesDidn't read everything but riot wants to look into adc mandatory for midseason.
oortoomeebreesuu4 votesThis is the problem you are complaining about in the form of a .png
https://i.imgur.com/BshOTlz.png
who is farming the most? Is it the spam wave clearers mid? Is it the Gnar who's abusing an uncontested lane without recalling for nearly 18 minutes? No, it's the person who has the most power and the least responsibility(as far as number of responsibilities, ADC literally have no job in the team other than to right click minions)
Assassin gets ahead -> Loses to ADC later
ADC gets ahead -> Just wins
Ariel the Cruel5 votesADC literally have no job in the team other than to right click minions
. . . And champions. And jungle mobs. And structures.
RainXBlade3 votesThey basically hit whatever's the first thing they see, even a tank with thornmail.
Śhunpo1 votesThis is the problem you are complaining about in the form of a .png
https://i.imgur.com/BshOTlz.png
who is farming the most? Is it the spam wave clearers mid? Is it the Gnar who's abusing an uncontested lane without recalling for nearly 18 minutes? No, it's the person who has the most power and the least responsibility(as far as number of responsibilities, ADC literally have no job in the team other than to right click minions)
Assassin gets ahead -> Loses to ADC later
ADC gets ahead -> Just wins
The fact that ADCs are outfarming mid laners now in the LCS should be a clear sign that something is indeed very wrong with this game right now. For as long as I can remember mid laners dominated the game in terms of CS, but now ADCs kinda just overtake them.
Also yeah that png just makes me suffer whenever I look at each role tag that says "ADC".
oortoomeebreesuu2 votesEU and LCK clearly understand. NA though _ always behind.
There is one player, on every team in every game, whose designation it is to basically not play the game. CSing is part of the game, but holy crap they have all this talk about wanting interactivity and how trading is exciting, yet the design of the professional scene (and therefore the game in general) has defaulted the ADC to be a literal potato that the support carries around in their pocket for 30 minutes.
The crux of the problem is that since other champions rely on abilities to deal damage, and since bot lane levels slower than the rest of the players on the map, any mage in the bot lane is inherently in a weakened state by being there. People would love to try comps with Karthus or Ziggs bot (that one we've seen) but the limiting factor is the Lvl 2 power spike being prohibitive to some champions because the lvl 2 lasts so much longer in that lane. Combined with farming being difficult with low AD numbers and being pigeon holed into building mana instead of actual stats, it's just an up hill battle. There's no reason to do it, so nobody does. It creates the "meta" we see now - every team comp is one potato and the four horseman of the apocalypse, except the potato is the dangerous one.
AirKingNeo1 votesPretty sure ADC is made of up two subclasses that have swapped into being relevant and not relevant. We've had a Lucian, Sivir, Ezreal caster meta, and then we had a Tristana Twitch hypercarry meta.
Śhunpo2 votesPretty sure ADC is made of up two subclasses that have swapped into being relevant and not relevant. We've had a Lucian, Sivir, Ezreal caster meta, and then we had a Tristana Twitch hypercarry meta.
At least the supposed "caster" meta's champs actually fall off in terms of scaling so that you actually have a gameplan going into your game.
Mizaya4 votesADC can be conditionally either the easiest or hardest class to counterplay.
What Riot should do is narrow that spectrum of variability, by giving them more tools to use themselves but hitting their reliability of damage output. This is their current design philosophy with other champs, so the class just needs modernization.
Simple nerfs aren't going to do it, since their design is essentially the same and will come back sooner or later just as strong. Something of what I propose, for example, is modifying crit as a stat to have only some of its power invested in autoattacks.
But those are just some quick thoughts.
DeusVult2 votesIts not exclusive to ADCs, this is relevant to all other AD crit users in the game.
GP falls behind in lane and gets dove several times, is now 0/5 with no outer tower and half of the inner is gone. He just farms up and looks to use ult to support team, gets 2-3 core items and lands one nice barrel, GG.
Tryn gets beat in lane, he is 0/7, his opponent groups to pressure the enemy base. tryn continues to split, gets 2-3 items and takes 2 towers, he can now 1v1 anyone in the game underneath their tower.
Same for Yi, Yasuo, same for literally any ADC. The only only one who even compares to this that doesnt use crit is Katarina, who can go 0/10 and then get 2 kills and snowball the game back into her favor.
Crit itemization is cheap AF for how absurdly powerful it is
5050BS1 votesNote the common ground of these champs.
Attack Speed, Crit and LifeSteal
Śhunpo1 votesIts not exclusive to ADCs, this is relevant to all other AD crit users in the game.
GP falls behind in lane and gets dove several times, is now 0/5 with no outer tower and half of the inner is gone. He just farms up and looks to use ult to support team, gets 2-3 core items and lands one nice barrel, GG.
Tryn gets beat in lane, he is 0/7, his opponent groups to pressure the enemy base. tryn continues to split, gets 2-3 items and takes 2 towers, he can now 1v1 anyone in the game underneath their tower.
Same for Yi, Yasuo, same for literally any ADC. The only only one who even compares to this that doesnt use crit is Katarina, who can go 0/10 and then get 2 kills and snowball the game back into her favor.
Crit itemization is cheap AF for how absurdly powerful it is
Well yeah, but like....they don't just immediately turn into these powerhouses that excel at everything.
That and Katarina's kinda a bad example since once she's shut down (past Gold elo) she generally just falls off and plays the role of either janitor or suicidal AP AOE damage dealer.
But yeah, I can agree it's not just ADCs. However melee crit. users are a lot less scary and easier to itemise against.
Hayaishi2 votesThe thing that just frustrates me about ADCs is that they're never irrelevant. Unlike every other role where if they go 0/10 they have to open mid, ADCs never have this issue. All ADCs have to do to get back into the game is to literally pick up 1-2 core damage items and suddenly they can out DPS the extremely fed assassin/duelist/bruiser who has been popping off the whole game and has 2-3 items up on them. Sure, that's exaggeration, but it's true.
Case and point, I annihilated my mid laner as Kat and I made Tristana go 1/9. As my luck would have it, just because we couldn't end in the next 7 minutes Tristana miraculously got her Shiv->IE+a Zeal off to the side and suddenly she got to be 12/9 in the next 5 minutes. Sure, her team certainly helped her, but the numbers she was dealing in terms of damage was absolutely obnoxious.
Want another example or a few just to be safe. Twitch, Xayah, Varus, Kog'maw, Vayne. All of those champions SHOULD be bloody late game hyper carries, but that couldn't be further from the truth since the moment they pick up their first 1-2 core damage items they just turn into these walking artilleries with either an excess of flank-ability or an excess amount of utility (CC) for the team.
Personally I just think that Precision is still far too broken on ADCs and the decision to make it primarily for ADCs was a stupid choice in terms of gameplay design. But they can't nerf it too hard otherwise it impacts the classes who actually have no other proper tree to function with, so bruisers. Like....why does the ADC class get this tree almost exclusively for them and yet every other class' tree is so "eh" compared to theirs (in terms of functionality at least, different story balance wise)?
It also doesn't help that Riot has made the game legitimately ONLY about bot lane, specifically catering to the AD carry. Seriously, we used to have to rely on other lanes to win, now you legit just forcefully win bot lane if they're not winning already and wow....you suddenly win the game. Literally the macro to win the fucking game in higher elos is you just spoonfeed your bot lane until your ADC auto carries you through objectives, teamfights and sieges. How that is healthy to Riot we will never know.
But yeah, you can never fully lockout an ADC from turning the game around. It's pretty disgusting. (Unless you match an ADC against an ADC)
So much salt in a single post that can't be more far from reality.
Śhunpo1 votesSo much salt in a single post that can't be more far from reality.
Mind explaining how you disagree?
I'll admit that I'm "salty" but I think that should be a given when ADCs get to a state like they are now.
Please explain how the aforementioned "late game hypercarries" are at all based around late game when they hit their main powerspike at level 9 with 2 items.
Please explain how the Precision tree isn't designed for ADCs.
Please explain how the game DOESN'T revolve around ADCs when literally THE macro play of choice is to continually pressure bot until yours wins.
Please explain how it's fair that I can be locked out of the game if I play any other champion and fall behind, but if I play an ADC I'm never irrelevant.
Hammermancer10 votesI've been buillding two adc items on champs that shouldn't just because of the power spike
ChaddyFantome7 votes[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8B34jHAX,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-03-13T16:18:54.658+0000)
I've been buillding two adc items on champs that shouldn't just because of the power spike
Dont know who downvoted you or why lol. Must be a salty adc player.
Ive been doing the same.
I go 
on 
now, and play ADC 
instead of AP with how strong the items are.
Votable Jester3 votesHaha I remember the old crit Talon build before the assassin butchering update.
ChaddyFantome1 votes[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8B34jHAX,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-03-14T02:13:32.596+0000)
Haha I remember the old crit Talon build before the assassin
butcheringupdate.
Right now, with IE + Shiv + DUSKblade + Ghost Blade , its generally enough to more reliably delete squishies than using your spells and actually trying to use your combo.
And until riot fixes the items, I'm not gonna stop, lol.
Also, Talon's rework was amazing and fixed all his problems lmao.
Votable Jester1 votesHis rework is fun, but he lost a ton of reliability in it.
I may try out that crit build though, seems fun. What order do you build them?
ChaddyFantome1 votes[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8B34jHAX,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-17T18:34:08.085+0000)
His rework is fun, but he lost a ton of reliability in it.
I may try out that crit build though, seems fun. What order do you build them?
I mean, his old "reliability" basically required your enemy to be stupid.
Currently i don't have a concrete build order, but for the moment i rush Dblade because its Dblade, and go Statik or Ghost blade from there depending. If i go Statik, I move into IE immediately from there. If not, I go GhostBlade. I'd try experimenting with the order if i were you. let me know if you find anythign juicy.
[sg-lulu]
vgamedude9 votesIt's hilarious right now in pro games that "late game carries" out damage every single person in the game even in the mid 20 minute mark.
Sheriff a ROOKIE ADC in EU LCS averaged 1.2k DPM in a week. One thousand two hundred damage per minute.... any other role can do that? Nope! Not to mention champions that are simplistic like Garen aren't allowed to be super meta and see pro play but champions like Tristana are?
RenownedWheat425 votesPretty sure ADCs are slated for changes in 8.6 aren't they?
tieger0510 votesNerfing Zeal wont fix the whole issue with ADCs being strong, especially if they buff towers, they'll just become strong again.
vgamedude9 votesnot to mention ADCs like 
won't care about zeal nerfs.
saltran11 votesYeah is not like 
was a Varus core item.
He wont be hurted as much as adcs that build 2 zeal items but he indeed cares about the uncomming Zeal nerfs.
vgamedude7 votesThats barely going to effect him you know that and you don't ALWAYS see it built regardless.
mah1foo1 votesThe reason it's core is because it enables him to damage multiple enemies with his W+Rage Blade+Wit's End. Nerfing the attack speed or crit won't affect it being core on him, those are only bonus for him.
AirKingNeo2 votesthat's why rageblade is being nerfed
ProfDrDeath8 votesYes.
Rageblade is posed to become a lot worse as a first buy item, given that its passive now amplifies existing AP, AD and AS instead of giving flat stats. This hits Varus and Kog'Maw.
Statikk Shiv is losing its damage bonus against minions, making it a lot worse at waveclear.
Kythers4 votesentire thread of <gold players crying about adc
40 upvotes
never change boards
place is becoming reddit
this will get downvoted even though my opinion is objectively superior
tieger052 votesYet another comment by a person who spams meta in ranker and then cries about how only their opinion should matter.
Yikes.
rtbf2216514122 votesWhy not both?
It wont stop ziggs either.
Nor the rune.
AirKingNeo1 votesNerf Tristana and Xayah. Make Varus's passive scale with permanent attack speed (so he can't get ~2.3 AS with Rageblade and Berserkers of a minion kill). Shiv already has nerfs on the PBE, but remove Shiv+RFC synergy.
Reduce damage on Caitlyn headshots(or at least make them a reduced crit), but give her Hurricane synergy back so she isn't a joke.
That's basically fixing ADCs as a problem. The rest is on how much supports make melee divers and juggernauts useless.
Ariel the Cruel4 votesThat addressees individual champions. Not really the class in general; which seems to be the crux of most complaints right now.
AirKingNeo3 votesExcept for ADC as a class isn't broken beyond what supports are doing: making them immune to death.
I don't think Ashe, Jhin, Lucian, and even Twitch are 'overpowered'.
Raiyza3 votesTwitch most certainly is.
AirKingNeo2 votesThat's a biased statement. Provide some evidence.
Raiyza3 votesLol, you for real?
Ok. I'll play along. I only need one sentence.
Ultimate provides 300 bonus range which gives a total of 850 range, bonus attack damage, and turns his autoattacks into piercing bolts providing AoE damage which coupled with stealth turns Twitch into a teamfighting Rengar, just without the indicator.
Anything else?
AirKingNeo2 votesYes, provide actual statistics and evidence. Aatrox's ult gives him massive attack speed, attack range, and high burst of magic damage, but he isn't OP. Describing what an ability does hasn't proven your argument.
Raiyza3 votesI'm not going to waste my time crunching numbers, and I have no need to. The text in his ultimate is good enough. Also, There have been so many threads about it, you can look it up yourself.
Aatrox doesn't have stealth. He only gains 150 MELEE range. He's as kitable as Garen/Darius. Twitch is not. Twitch outranges EVERY CHAMPION IN THE GAME with his ult. There is no counterplay.
AirKingNeo1 votesI'm not going to waste my time crunching numbers, and I have no need to. The text in his ultimate is good enough. Also, There have been so many threads about it, you can look it up yourself.
There were threads about it before he was nerfed. Now he's been nerfed.
You didn't give a reason why Twitch is broken.
Raiyza3 votesHe was nerfed in the wrong area, and those same nerfs were reverted.
And yes, i did. Reread my earlier post.
AirKingNeo1 votesNo? He's lost 0/5/10/15/20 E damage. That's a large nerf to his waveclear and trades.
Raiyza2 votesI went back and re-read the patch notes for 8.4 and 8.5.
8.4 - BASE DAMAGE20/35/50/65/80 ⇒ 20/25/30/35/40 BONUS DAMAGE PER STACK15/20/25/30/35 (+0.25 bonus attack damage) (+0.2 ability power) (unchanged)
8.5 - E - Contaminate BASE DAMAGE20/25/30/35/40 ⇒ 20/30/40/50/60
Looks like you were right on the E nerfs. They half reverted.
HOWEVER.
His E was never his problem. His problem remains that his ult plus stealth is extremely difficult to deal with considering the range he receives. Most champions in the game cannot even react in time before Twitch shreds the hell out of their health. After early game ends, he will get at least two autoattacks off before another player can get in range to fight back. With IE, that is a huge fuck load of damage.
In a teamfight setting, this is even more problematic because Twitch will have peel, especially from Champions like Lulu and Janna.
AirKingNeo1 votesHis E was never his problem. His problem remains that his ult plus stealth is extremely difficult to deal with considering the range he receives. Most champions in the game cannot even react in time before Twitch shreds the hell out of their health. After early game ends, he will get at least two autoattacks off before another player can get in range to fight back. With IE, that is a huge fuck load of damage.
Are you an expert to define this as a fact?
Raiyza1 votesHoly jesus, that's your response?
Provide a counter argument. Until I hear a good reason why 850 range on a stealth champion is balanced, yes I define my argument as fact.
AirKingNeo1 votesYes, because you were pretentious enough to call your opinion a fact.
Twitch is a hypercarry and his ult defines that. His issue is him scaling too quickly and having too strong of an early game, which nerfing his waveclear fixes. How would you nerf his ult?
tieger053 votesNerfing them will only being other ADCs back in meta.
