Open letter to Riot regarding the new Thornmail

GrotesqueImagery··3 votes·1,169 views

I just want to have an open, honest discussion about the Thornmail changes that we are seeing in the most recent patch notes.

**TL;DR The new Thornmail is a huge counter to every single ADC in existence, and it alone gives a tank EVERY single stat they would itemize against an ADC in one inventory slot. **

I understand the initial idea, allowing tanks to have a CHANCE against sustain AP bruiser style champs, like Vladimir and Swain. While this is going to achieve exactly what you intend it to, it is also one of the biggest ADC nerfs I've seen in awhile. Is it really worth it to nerf every ADC in the game just to buff tanks (again) allowing them to counter two champions? Well really it's more than a counter to just Swain and Vladimir.

Every support in the game will likely build Tabi+bramble vest. That combined with the HP from sightstone, ADC will have a much harder time in lane, especially now considering BORK is still quite meta on most ADC's, even after the 3% lifesteal reduction in patch 7.11. The grevious wounds effect will likely phase out most use of ignite users in the bot lane, so we'll see exhaust mostly. Soraka, Sona, Taric, Nami, will all be CONSIDERABLY nerfed. ADC's wouldn't need to build executioners calling anymore, your support can just build bramble vest instead.

But I have one serious question.

Why do you feel the need to give Thornmail 5 "things"?

250 HP 75 Armor Damage Reflect Cold Steel Grevious wounds to attackers

Lately, as in the last two or three years, you guys have had a fixation on saturating the game with effects. Look at Kayn's kit, and then look at any champion released in season 2. Look at Ekko's kit, look at new Galio, look at Camille. I know it's sort of a meme, but "Camille's E is literally Jarvan IV's QWE in one" is not too far off from accurate. This new thornmail is just another example of this overloading of effects.

Playing ADC was (and still kind of is) frustrating enough with Ninja Tabi being purchased in nearly every single role, as well as most tanks having the tools and base damages to deal nearly 75% of an ADC lifepool in one rotation of their abilities. This combined with the complete ease of achieving 40% or 45% CDR and we have what's called movement creep. ANYWAYS... Tanks have just received one item that counters every single ADC in the entire game, for the entire game, and the item is cheaper than one core item on ADC's.

Thornmail giving health means it makes the armor more "effective", which means that champions that wouldn't normally build thornmail now can. Yasuo (as if he's not tanky enough with tabi+PD+passive shield+frozen mallet) can now just build thornmail and ACTUALLY be the most disgusting ADC counter we've ever seen.

I understand the attempt to give tanks some love, but it's sad to see this happening yet again. Every time we see ADC finally becoming powerful something happens that considerably buffs tanks. ADC is actually drawing bans and it's kind of awesome!

It feels like you're holding the "tank" 's hand, giving them something that will help them at every stage of the game. Tanks will always become tanky (given a long enough game), and they usually have farming tools available to them to CS rather efficiently (see your Galio rework).

I'm sure you've considered everything that I've said, but I just want to express my frustrations.

36 Comments

Evil Yasuo3 votes

Tanks are broken, what else is new.

GrotesqueImagery1 votes

If this is such common knowledge, why does Riot seem to not care? Did you read the entire post?

Evil Yasuo3 votes

Yeah I read the whole post and I agree with you. I just mean, prepare to get downvoted by tank players and the typical "ur just bad" comments. They'll never nerf tanks and they'll always be some bs tank item like this new thornmail that fucks over an entire class.

GrotesqueImagery1 votes

I am the lone ADC among my group of friends, and all of the top lane/jungle players agree that the item is going to be busted. It's not just a simple "buff one tank item" and make "top lane easier". It's going to shift the entire game back to complete ADC uselessness, and I'm still tired of ziggs bot 24/7.

Colton1471 votes

[{quoted}](name=Off The Heezy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=888a0uqK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-11T19:37:07.892+0000)

Tanks are broken, what else is new.

Armor penetration...

Oh what I am saying - I'm Bronze and I don't know anything; you prefer only to bully and harass anyone who is in low elo. :/

Evil Yasuo1 votes

Oh gee, 1 armor pen item in the game.

Colton1472 votes

[{quoted}](name=Off The Heezy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=888a0uqK,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-07-12T07:03:40.079+0000)

Oh gee, 1 armor pen item in the game.

Mortal Reminder, Lord Dominik's, Blade of the Ruined King, any Lethality item...

Evil Yasuo1 votes

You don't build both mr and ldr, you build 1 or the other. bork isn't armor pen, it's health percentage and lethality isn't armor pen. People have told me countless times on here that lethality wasn't designed to killed tanks hence why a lower lvl malphite with 2 items can solo me with full lethality.

Ralanr1 votes

Lethality is armor pen, but it's not great against tanks. Not sure if the BC+lethality combo still works against tanks now.

Big Lincoln3 votes

old thornmail would do more damage to counter lifesteal than new thornmail's after you have more armor items

it's better early and as a standalone item but assuming they're building armor specifically to counter you, you'd be healing off them more end-game

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

To be fair, marksmen have had an item to counter tanks in every way for the past year. Dominik's regards deals more damage against champions with more health, and has significant armor penetration; both huge counters against tanks when it already has decent attack damage. Last whisper was left separate from blade of the ruined king for a reason.

GrotesqueImagery2 votes

You aren't wrong, but tanks shouldn't be the ones to do EVERYTHING in the game. Tanks already can soak a ton of damage from ADC's, morellos and executioners calling can be purchased by any other role in the game. It should be their job to apply grevious wounds to the enemy ADC.

Not like it's a huge part of the game, but ADC's are going to have an even MORE difficult time having to 1v1 tanks (given the situation), as if it wasn't already hard enough with 40% CDR essentially giving tanks permanent slows and CC on top of gap closers.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Oh but marksmen can? Double standards man. Marksmen already make or break a team by existing, can be played fairly easily anywhere, and have a plethora of items for any situation that have been buffed repeatedly in the past couple years. But forbid tanks get one good item after a season of sucking right? Marksmen shouldn't be trying to solo anyone without backup nearby, and should be focusing on the easier to kill members of the enemy team during a fight. Likewise they're there to take down the actually important objectives when given the reasonable chance.

GrotesqueImagery1 votes

It's not about marksman TRYING to solo tanks. If I'm splitting a lane and their zero damage item tank walks into lane, it shouldn't be a "If I get touched at all I'm dead" moment, it should be a "If I play this smart I can kill him" moment.

And no, it's not a double standard, that's what the role is FOR. ADC's are supposed to be dealing shit loads of damage in the back line. Tanks are supposed to be CC providers (peelers) and damage soakers.

This thornmail change would be fine if you were able to just ignore tanks and focus on higher priority targets. If a Gragas body slams onto me, I HAVE to hit him back, otherwise he will single handedly kill me in 1.5 rotations of his kit.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

The smart part is killing the tank without just right-clicking it to death, think outside the box. Such as nasus using his siphoning strike to make the hit count and chunk him down; rumble using flamespitter and electroharppon while saving autos for farming; ext.

Critical hits already escalate their power due to stacking attack damage and attack speed, even more so with an infinity edge, which ironically ends up being optional in some games. Dealing damage from the backline I agree with; what I'm talking about is all the extra tricks they get for free ontop of that. Getting to spam abilities like a mage without the worry of going out of mana. item 3508 item 3004 Denying an assassin from doing his job. item 3812 item 3046 item 3026 item 3053 (item 3814 with it's ability) Increasing their range of threat significantly. item 3085 item 3087 item 3094 Being able to run over mages single handedly. item 3156 item 3091 item 3139 (item 3814 with it's ability) Negating a tank from doing their job. item 3071 item 3153 item 3033 item 3036 Being able to outrun anyone lacking a sudden gapcloser. item 3142 item 3153 item 3022 item 3046 item 3094 item 3085 item 3087 item 3071 Don't forget the lifesteal that applies with increased application with critical hits! item 3153 item 3812 item 3156 item 3139 item 3072 (and the bloodlust mastery) They have multiple items to deal with about any situation, far more than most other classes, that only have one or two. Not counting that they get a babysitter who often ends up as a meatshield regardless of class.

And no you don't, gragas doesn't have a taunt, just back away from him after the hit if you fail to dodge it. Use your mobility or crowd control on him after he commits and let your team hold him down so you can safely take him out, or keep him preoccupied while you focus someone else. By the way he's a magic bruiser, think the mage equivalent of jarvan. Knowing the enemy team has a gragas, why would you be wondering anywhere alone anyway? That's asking for trouble . . .

GrotesqueImagery1 votes

Use your mobility and crowd control to walk away from him? I'm sorry, have you ever played against a 40% CDR gragas before? Gragas has to completely miss EVERY single one of his abilites for that to happen, because frozen gauntlet exists.

And the fact that you even think ADC's have any sort of reliable self peeling tools comparable to tanks is just absolutely straight up laughable. Completely out of touch with the game.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Yes but not recently, like kled I only see him from the handful of mains that play them. Again why were you running around alone at all? Marksmen can get triforce you know, which gives you a burst of movement speed when you use an auto-attack.

Marksmen can't self peel? Lets hear this one. You know how you dodge skillshots? Mobility abilities (and phantom dancer). Combined with their crowd control (also from frozen mallet & botrk) you can buy the time you need to survive, but it requires forethought and improvisation. Ashe Caitlyn Draven Ezreal Graves Jayce Jhin Jinx Kalista Kindred Lucian Quinn Sivir Tristana Varus Vayne Xayah

GrotesqueImagery1 votes

I hate to pull this card, but you're unranked, and I am currently Platinum IV. Not saying I'm the best player on Earth, but I certainly have more experience in this game than you do. You absolutely have no idea what you're talking about. Simply regurgitating whatever Riot feeds your brain from theory, with no actual experience playing the game.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

And I don't care what rank you are, you could be challenger and I couldn't care. I don't have to prove my skill to myself, but keep on being you. Been playing since season one; as mages, tanks, assassins, marksmen, and inbetween across every position for a few months each. Can't afford the time to as much anymore, but I doubt you've been around nearly as long.

GrotesqueImagery1 votes

Hm this is old, but I've been around since season 2, just FYI.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

And season one here, seen the downfall since riot became obsessed with being an esport; both in game design and community. Don't mind continuing a conversation though, lol.

GrotesqueImagery1 votes

Things are different now... But, basically ardent censer gives ADC's a 7th item, which is why they're so broken right now. Feels great though! Fuck tanks!

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Masteries did that first, bloodlust and fervor still do, lol.

GrotesqueImagery1 votes

It's not even close to the same lol.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Bloodlust is basically bonus lifesteal; healing for 40% AD every few autos, double that if it's a critical hit. Fervor buffs your AD by +8 per auto-attack, stacking up to 8 times, and thanks to zeal stacking with itself it's not hard to max out those stacks. So explain to me how they aren't counting as an extra item for free.

FiddlesOnTheRoof2 votes

Here comes the "but adcs are busted" flame.

GrotesqueImagery3 votes

It's bound to happen. When was the last time you felt like you were reliably able to impact a game as ADC? I get decently fed in lane plenty of times, but when push comes to shove, the 0/3/5 top laner can still influence the game a whole hell of a lot more than I can from down there.

The "C" in "ADC" doesn't really apply anymore.

FiddlesOnTheRoof1 votes

Unless you play Twitch! I've started playing him because, in my opinion, he's the most hyper carry of all the hyper carries

Ralanr2 votes

Against champions and teams that lean on heavy healing and regeneration effects, tanky melee types sometimes feel like they’re actually hurting their team by serving as convenient health batteries. While mages have Morellonomicon and other carries have Executioner’s Calling to help focus down healing-oriented threats, we wanted to make sure that melee champs can at least force high-sustain damage dealers to look elsewhere for their healing

They don't specifically mean people like Swain or Vlad here. They could also point towards heavy sustaining building marksmen or even against tanks like Maokai or Zac.

Honestly I'm still not sure if they can make this work healthy, but I'm tired of having to build item 3123 in place of my ADC to deal with a heavy sustain threat when I'm a tank, so I'm glad we're getting it.

GrotesqueImagery1 votes

"look elsewhere for their healing", sure, fine, reduce healing from themselves, but grevious wounds reduces ALL HEALING by 50%. It's just not going to act the way they want it to.

Ralanr4 votes

And thornmail only does it for 1 second, so if they just swap targets then they can get their healing off no problem.

It's not like executioners culling.

GrotesqueImagery1 votes

ADC's can't just swap targets as easily as you would hope. Thanks to mobility creep, tanks have endless gap closers and slows, allowing them to single handedly zone out any ADC threat out of range of any other target on the tank's team.

ADC's (good ones) attack nearest target. Most often, it's the tank.

Escheton2 votes

Binary thinking. Adc main?

GrotesqueImagery1 votes

Yes, I am. I'm tired of tanks having every tool in the toolbox available to them whenever they need it.

Escheton1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I am. I'm tired of tanks having every tool in the toolbox available to them whenever they need it.

But isn't that exactly what their role is? Versatile tools that shape the battlefield to their teams advantage? Like, adc kill everyone given the right situation, assassins kill prime targets given the situation, control mages set up picks given the situation, etc etc. But Tanks do nothing except create situations.

Commando Yi1 votes

mwf when an adc main doesn't understand that he won't be killing himself on thornmail anymore

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