Episode 372 of "It should be obvious & shouldn't need to be said": Annoying ≠ Broken/Needing nerfs.

Joxcab··18 votes·835 views

No one has ever denied Fizz can be a hell of an annoying champion to play against.

Guess what? That doesn't matter. No one cares. That isn't relevant to balance. That's something that might be handled in a VGU for example, but it's not something that is even the tiniest bit relevant to balance changes.

Balance changes are when a champion is underpowered or overpowered. Tank Fizz is currently overpowered and is abusing a mechanism a way it wasn't supposed to be with unintended items and build patterns. That is the kind of thing balance changes are for. That is the reason Tank Fizz received large W base damage nerfs to the un-empowered W (which means nerfs to the empowered are triple the values to the regular).

Annoying/oppressive/any of these other descriptor words are all subjective. You could describe literally any champion in the game as some selection of these words and they'd all be valid and apply. That's why no one gives a crap about the trigger words.


Aatrox is oppressive because he can duel continuously lifestealing back health and has a revive passive meaning he can be a lot more aggressive and is resourceless.


See how that works? I ignored how his revive passive depends on a full passive bar, how attack speed slows maul him, and he's reliant on getting attack speed and lifesteal to synergize with his lifesteal every third hit.


Fizz (in his intended AP mid build) is oppressive because he has high burst, a long range hitbox-size increasing shark on his ultimate with a slow and knock up, and untargetability on a 6 second cooldown.


See how that works? I ignored how almost every single ranged mid still abuses him pre-6 as long as they play a little smart and watch their health given he's melee which inherently makes farming worse to do. Likewise, how every melee is almost all assassins who also have tools to deal with him and/or are equally bad/strong against each other pre-6.

I ignored how his ultimate and particularly its large hit box as it flies farther makes it easier for a tank to intercept because all he has to do is stand anywhere even slightly in front of the target to eat it instead.

I ignored how his untargetability is only 6 seconds cooldown at maximum rank and maximum CDR in his standard masteries (which takes the Magic Pen over the 5% bonus CDR). I also ignored how 6 seconds is still ample time for a team to deal with him because his very kit means he has to go into melee range to kill someone.

A shark isn't going to kill anyone who isn't low health by itself anyways. To finish them off, he has to get into melee range which is why he has the E in the first place. As an assassin, diving into an entire enemy team is the very last thing any assassin wants to do because it is quite literally suicide to try without some escape provided.

6 seconds in the middle of a team is ample time to both force the E out in the first place and lock him out right afterwards. The only thing it does is give him a CHANCE to escape. If he used the E to go in, he's not going to escape. It's the same reason Akali has shroud which gives her team time to follow up or can R out to a nearby camp or enemy minion. Same reason Zed has his R return and W. Same reason Talon has E. Same reason Kassadin has blink. Same reason LeBlanc has her range and her W. Same reason Kha'Zix has his E. Same reason all others do.

I also ignored how almost all teams (intelligent ones at least) will have Locket and Redemption in teamfights, as well as Exhaust. All 3 of them are a fuck you to assassins. Locket gives a shield to survive till Redemption heal and Exhaust is just the "no" button to assassins.


Every single relevant statistic from a credible site across every possible factor supports he (as AP Fizz) is currently balanced regardless of how annoying he is.

This applies to champions like Yasuo, Zed, LeBlanc, so on and so forth. No matter how annoying they are, statistics all support them being either weak or balanced.

#You don't nerf champions just for being annoying. You nerf them if they are actually too strong.


You simply cannot make a valid statement he has no counterplay. He has ample counterplay to every part of his kit.

MR works against his entire kit.

W's biggest is literally shown. There's a delay before he can get the bonus damage off. The regular W damage is poor. The mark also disappears just a few seconds later if he doesn't proc it.

E is on a cooldown that is relatively long in any setting outside of a 1v1 or farming in an isolated lane with no enemies nearby at all. But on that note, you shouldn't be getting anywhere near an assassin alone if you can't handle it anyways (a tank or someone who can kill an assassin like anti-assassin champions), regardless if it's Fizz or any other. If you did, that's your fault if you died.

R is inherently dodgeable even with the increasing hitbox size. The auto lock hit box and the pickup were both nerfed and removed respectively. It can be bodyblocked. The shark appears after a set delay that is always the same. That gives time for shields, heals, and mitigation otherwise. The knockup is avoidable by not standing within the box. Tenacity reduces the slow.


#Champions aren't nerfed nor do they need or should they be nerfed just for being annoying. Pure balance changes are for being too strong or weak alone.

21 Comments

deadlychuck7 votes

It'd Malzahar be Malzahar a Malzahar shame Malzahar if Malzahar riot Malzahar didn't Malzahar see Malzahar it Malzahar that Malzahar way.

Sire Hippington3 votes

Basically agree, though i wouldn't say ' Tank Fizz is currently overpowered and is abusing a mechanism a way it wasn't supposed to be with unintended items and build patterns.' If a champ has a mechanic that promotes consistant AAing, an AA-reset, A low cd dash that scales of 100%total ad and procs on-hit and quite solid base ad/as stats, it should not be supprising to ANYONE with even half a brain that this champ can make good use of items like Trinity and BotrK

PhDs Nuts2 votes

It's really unclear what you're actually trying to say.

Fizz top is actually broken. That's what people are complaining about, not AP mid Fizz.

Joxcab6 votes

There's literally dozens of people whining about AP Fizz or Fizz in general or his E which is more important on AP than Tank who really doesn't care or need it. Instead of just Tank Fizz alone which is the only problematic one. Look around Boards lol

TwitchInMyPants3 votes

{quoted}

There's literally dozens of people whining about AP Fizz or Fizz in general or his E which is more important on AP than Tank who really doesn't care or need it. Instead of just Tank Fizz alone which is the only problematic one. Look around Boards lol

If his E wasn't 2 jumps and invuln frames he would be a risky, shitty fighter top. Ekko's E was very similar for tank top and it took a total rebalance of the ability to get him in a spot where tank ekko was risky and until power is shifted it'll be pretty much the same. This is the kind of thing a rework would kill two birds with one stone with but they have PBE changes to fix the balance so its kinda irrelevant. But people point out toxic mechanics since its a common motive for Riot to look at a rework - which if not some shipped out overdone mess in a midseason update that gets ignored immediately after it messes up - will actually address balance

Joxcab2 votes

But if you're that tanky, it drastically reduces the need for it.

His E isn't toxic and its core to AP Fizz who is completely balanced. There isn't a need to nerf E when the whole reason AD bruiser tank Fizz is possible is because of W. E still does help a little, but with appropriate W nerfs, tank Fizz won't be viable. Nerfing E is unnecessary because that's not the cause of the issue in the first place and AP Fizz in top is usually awful.

TwitchInMyPants3 votes

{quoted}

But if you're that tanky, it drastically reduces the need for it.

His E isn't toxic and its core to AP Fizz who is completely balanced. There isn't a need to nerf E when the whole reason AD bruiser tank Fizz is possible is because of W. E still does help a little, but with appropriate W nerfs, tank Fizz won't be viable. Nerfing E is unnecessary because that's not the cause of the issue in the first place and AP Fizz in top is usually awful.

It's losing base for AP ratio which forces AP Fizz more into midgame than it was before just to keep that element in both builds. Riot is correct in doing so too because they want to keep Fizz as is. And "Tanky" fizz is buying a sheen item, using fervor, and stacking tank. You're still playing a softer champ toplaner, you aren't a true tank. You're closer to Jax or something. And given how champs that rush TF/Gauntlet manage compared to Fizz, invlun frames that allow him to dodge Naut hooks, Mao ws, poke, go over walls is a pretty big deal. Even if its not your main skill in this build the design of it is efficient even at rank 1.

Joxcab2 votes

I don't think you get the point. W is the one and only reason Tank Fizz is viable. Tank Fizz makes use of E, which definitely helps.

But W is the only reason Tank Fizz is possible. Nerfing W, whether current PBE nerfs are enough or not, is the way to fix him.

E isn't the cause of the problem. E isn't a problem on AP Fizz.

W is the cause of the problem of Tank Fizz and is the reason it can exist.

Nerfing W means Tank Fizz dies. Nerfing E means AP Fizz dies, Tank Fizz takes a minor hit, but still remains strong because of W. Nerfing both means you just kill both builds.

TwitchInMyPants3 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you get the point. W is the one and only reason Tank Fizz is viable. Tank Fizz makes use of E, which definitely helps.

But W is the only reason Tank Fizz is possible. Nerfing W, whether current PBE nerfs are enough or not, is the way to fix him.

E isn't the cause of the problem. E isn't a problem on AP Fizz.

W is the cause of the problem of Tank Fizz and is the reason it can exist.

Nerfing W means Tank Fizz dies. Nerfing E means AP Fizz dies, Tank Fizz takes a minor hit, but still remains strong because of W. Nerfing both means you just kill both builds.

If a champion is strong the entire kit is good. Way back in the day instead of nerfing Thresh's hook or flay when he was broken his W, which he almost never maxed, was targeted. One point wonders can be really, really effective in keeping characters strong and if AP Fizz is going to max it anyway to get out of rank 1 ASAP tweaking the value against a build abusing it does help. They're doing both in a way to where AP Fizz's early farming isn't impacted too hard by a W nerf because the base dmg nerf is being split over a couple problematic abilities.

Just because the main move is strong doesn't mean the rest of the kit doesn't exist and shouldn't be looked at. In fact the main move SHOULD be strong if the build is allowed to exist, there's a reason you max it. The key is balancing the whole kit around the rest of the game.

Joxcab2 votes

E is balanced, whether it's on Tank or AP Fizz. There is clear counterplay to it, and even moreso on Tank honestly because of the longer cooldowns.

W is the reason Tank Fizz is possible to be even played. Nerfing W gets rid of Tank Fizz, while not hurting AP Fizz too badly as long as he gets scaling compensation.

AP Fizz is balanced and doesn't need nerfs. Tank Fizz is broken and needs to be removed altogether.

E is his main move.

PhDs Nuts2 votes

Eh nevermind.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

THANK GOD.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

You'll sing a different tune when the same ten champions are permanently banned when ten bans roll out. Then I'll wonder how much annoying/oppressive plays into balance.

I play League to have fun. If I have to spend the majority of the time playing against the same dozen or so champions that are oppressive assholes that suck the joy out of every encounter, then I'm not having fun and thus not a satisfied customer. I spit on 'technically balanced' champions that are utter hell to play against. Kalista is 'technically balanced', even almost weak, but that doesn't make her a fucking nightmare to play against as anyone immobile, melee, or both.

Joxcab1 votes

I mean there will always be whiny children banning whatever they don't know how to beat or get annoyed by. That's not ever going to change.

And it's not ever going to be the way you describe it lmao. There aren't going to be any permaban champions.

There will always be other priorities, and then champions against the teamcomps specifically.

FantasySniper1 votes

You ignored how Fizz can kill anyone he lands his ult on. Or how he doesn't even need his ult to kill most people. Fizz is A+ tier right now, if not outright S.

I don't really think you understand the example champions you're using, nor how statistics should be interpreted in order to understand power.

Joxcab1 votes

I don't know about AD on-hit bruiser/tank Fizz, but as for AP Fizz:

  1. That's the point. If he lands his ultimate into his full combo, they should be dying in the first place.
  2. If he's killing someone without ultimate, they're either bad or their entire team is bad. What you just described isn't ever realistic in a teamfight setting, and is still unrealistic in even a 1v1 setting under any reasonable, non-excessively long amount of time.
  3. None of the example champions I stated need nerfs. That's my point. Regardless of how annoying they are or aren't. And annoying/other such words in the first place are subjective and don't matter anyways.
  4. But statistics support Fizz being balanced?
FantasySniper1 votes
  1. You said that a tank can intercept the ult. Fizz will just end up killing the tank instead.
  2. False. Fizz is capable of kills without his ultimate. He has enough safety, mobility, and damage to do it to a great majority of the roster.
  3. And that's what you don't get. They do, objectively, need nerfs.
  4. Statistics don't. Aggregate win-rate only holds up at a glance:
  • When you exclude edge cases such as inexperienced games, intentional feeding, or incorrect runes or masteries; winrate will then bump up. This sort of relationship is why winrate is inverse to pickrate, as these edge cases happen more often the less experienced the players are with said champion. i.e. the "meta sheep".
  • Then you have to consider that the champion is optimally used. How well experienced users do, which builds prove most effective, how often they're given favorable matchups, etc.
  • Here's Fizz's Plat+ stat page.
  • Notice that Thunderlord's does significantly better than the next most popular, Grasp. It's easy to deduce that Grasp drags down his aggregate winrate.
  • When you encounter a good Fizz, he's almost certainly using Thunderlord's and has a higher chance of winning.
  • People complain about the good Fizz' that win 57+% of the time. Not the bad ones.
Joxcab1 votes

[deleted]

FantasySniper1 votes

Yeah, it's pretty obvious you don't understand what I wrote or how the game works.

Rexxiee1 votes

{quoted}

You ignored how Fizz can kill anyone he lands his ult on. Or how he doesn't even need his ult to kill most people. Fizz is A+ tier right now, if not outright S.

I don't really think you understand the example champions you're using, nor how statistics should be interpreted in order to understand power.

Fizz is not syndra/lb/ahri/ori

In fact its kind of stupid he got nerfed before any of those 4.

More from Gameplay

More by Joxcab