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Seriously, Ornn looks like a champion who will either be useless or broken, no middle ground...

Raoul··39 votes·6,333 views

The whole concept of this character looks like it will end up like this.

Either he is in a viable state, in which case he is going to go totaly insane and be a must pick or ban, or he is nerfed to a point where noone will ever want him on the team.

The reasons for this are in the way his abilities work.

First, buying Items with no downtime is pretty broken. Ok, we dont know if he can buy everything, but just imagine him being able to restock potions in lane, without going back. And that isnt even the part that makes me think this ability is just busted by design. Its the part where every ally can get an upgrade that the enemy team cant get. This passive basically says that your full build team will have MORE SLOT EFFICIENT ITEMS than the enemy team every game that goes lategame. To make this clear: Your team is able to power up beyond the level of the enemy team. Your team has access to extra stats not available for the enemy team. Your team has access to better Items than the enemy team! There is absolutely NO WAY to balance this. As long as this passive stays at any level that can be considered relevant, its always busted.

Then there is his ability to make the CC abilities of allies stronger. Again, let me make this clear: In a mirror match, with the only difference being this champion, your team is already stronger than the enemy team by the start of the game. No matter how small the extra amount of damage and CC duration is, it is still more than the same champion would have if Ornn was not on the team.

And these things are literally just EXTRAS to the champion. They are not full abilities, they are passives, bonuses. He still has a full 4 spell kit on top of it.

He makes allied champions stronger with no sacrifice at all.

The only way to stop this from being gamebreaking is to nerf the champion to a point where he becomes a trollpick. As long as he remains viable as a champion by himself, he will be busted in a team wide perspective.

Honestly, who designed this champion and who decided that this was a good idea?

48 Comments

Variks the Loyal21 votes

Being able to shop in lane is not broken. He has no HP or mana sustain. He can't buy potions from his own shop (He's a Blacksmith, not an Alchemist, a Red post confirmed). The allies need to pay gold for the unique upgrades, so it doesn't become relevant until everyone has 6 items (A Red said that upgrading an item to Ornn tier early isn't worth it compared to building your next item), you can only choose to upgrade ONE item, and it delays your flasks.

Lastly, being able to extend ally CC isn't really that fantastic of a feature. it is good, but it's not great. You're imagining a world where a team has 3 tanks to lock CC on one target, but that's unrealistic, and while it might lead to some cheese at times, cheese is rarely viable, that's why it's cheese. Odds are, Ornn is going to be the main, and only, tank on his team, with a utility support like Morgana or Taric offering a single bit of CC that he can extend and maybe some soft CC from a Mage that would be hard to synergize with Brittle. Few carries like ADCs or Assassins have hard CC to use with Ornn.

And then there's Quicksilver Sash and Cleanse and Banshee's Veil and Edge of Night and Zhonya's to protect you from the mean scary dwarf walrus ram.

Fondling Gems4 votes

Pretty sure his passive has a built in Timer to add onto this. A red post mentioned that they might have to increase the timer on his passive in ARAM, thus implying he can't just shop at will.

Jerry SeinfeId5 votes

God tier aram champ.

Ironclad Dragon2 votes

He built the bloody bridge, it probably comes with perks.

Meep Man5 votes

Why don't we actually see his numbers, mechanics, and test him out ourselves before stating anything, yes?

People said the same thing about Xayah and Rakan when teased. "If they are apart, they will always be weak. If they are together, they will always be OP." Guess how it is now?

SociopathFriend1 votes

People still say that, but Xayah I believe is generally regarded as the more useful of the two

Limrick2 votes

Rakan is like the best initiater in the game. He's stupid strong with Xayah, and still does well without her.

Nixtarma2 votes

Your objection is only true if Ornn does not, in fact make any sacrifice at all.

I think it is much more plausible that Ornn Innate and Brittle effects are a part of how strong he is. In order to be useful, you have to take appropriate advantage of these features.

Personally, I think the Brittle effect looks interesting to use, and that most of his abilities have a fair telegraph period.

I suppose we will just have to wait and see.

(Note: Reave has confirmed that Ornn cannot buy potions with his passive)

MohawkBird2 votes

[deleted]

SociopathFriend1 votes

Well, not being out isn't a good reason not to call OP or UP on a champion. That's still perfectly doable. It's his reasons for calling him OP that aren't very good.

BobaFlautist2 votes

Slot efficiency of fully upgraded items is relevant in perhaps 1% of games. I don't really see that part of his passive being that significant, especially since champions are designed to have variable power late game anyway.

I mean you don't see Cass in 100% of games and she gets a free entire item slot.

The other part of his passive looks much fancier, but Riot already confirmed that he can't craft potions.

hi hi its zy zy1 votes

cass loses the ability to buy boots so she has to make it to lategame while being inherently less mobile than like everybody but anivia until her passive starts helping her keep up

AirKingNeo2 votes

He can't restock on potions.

SociopathFriend2 votes

And that isnt even the part that makes me think this ability is just busted by design. Its the part where every ally can get an upgrade that the enemy team cant get. This passive basically says that your full build team will have MORE SLOT EFFICIENT ITEMS than the enemy team every game that goes lategame. To make this clear: Your team is able to power up beyond the level of the enemy team. Your team has access to extra stats not available for the enemy team. Your team has access to better Items than the enemy team! There is absolutely NO WAY to balance this. As long as this passive stays at any level that can be considered relevant, its always busted.

Not really. Busted implies it will destroy the game around it like 5.0 AS Kog'Maw. This will do no such thing since they have to buy the stats. That's why it only matters late-game, the VERY late-game.

Let's say he can add a item 1036 's worth of stats for 350. You are literally as strong as you would be if you bought a longsword. So it will only matter when everyone is full-build. How did you describe it?

As long as this passive stays at any level that can be considered relevant, its always busted.

Considering it will borderline never be relevant since it's quite rare for games to reach full builds, it follows that it will rarely be "busted". Also I believe he's not quite as effective as outright buying the item so it's only a small increase. Without counterplay? Sure, you can call it that, but busted is incorrect.

Awhegark1 votes

His passive is not that good. He has no sustain, ho he will have to back to fountain like any other champions. He wont be able to buy pots unless he goes back to base.

I feel his passive will only be good if hes already ahead.

Raoul1 votes

aha... so... what about the problems i talked about that still exist even if he has to go to base?

Awhegark1 votes

I don't know, I was just talking about the passive.

statelesskiller2 votes

what that he brings something unique to every game? thats not a problem

your not understanding the concept of meaningful choice if you think his brittle stuff will eat up his power budget as much as garens villain mechanic eats up his

kile1477 votes

His ability to empower his allies CC is not what you make it out to be.

It's like saying Leona is going to be broken because "there is her passive ability to make her allies do more damage. Again, let me make this clear: In a mirror match, with the only difference being this champion, your team is already stronger than the enemy team by the start of the game. No matter how small the extra amount of damage, it is still more than the same champion would have if Leona was not on the team."

That's something in her power budget, it's part of what makes her a good support. Empowering your allies is nothing new and is not going to break this champ.

Mig894 votes

Theyve posted he cant buy potions through his passive. the quote was "hes a blacksmith, not an alchemist." His passive costing gold to use could easily be balanced imo. if everything costs 50-100g to buy outside the shop, it comes out to about even. Brittle could easily be balanced by nuking Ornn's own CC. He could have really weak cc in trade for giving his team a bit more or even trimming down his damage. OP seems like the type to hate on any new champs before seeing them in action. Give it a chance. Even if he is broken on release, so what, so is almost every champ on release. The only thing I find it hard to balance is the item upgrade for teammates. If this sticks, he will be one-of if not the-best late game champ. This could be somewhat balanced if the upgraded items arent much of an upgrade. An extra 5AD or some small number like this isnt much late game. If it increases an items strength 5%, its not much of an issue.

kile1472 votes

I think they've confirmed it's about 1000g (500g for support item) upgrades on various keystone items that are supposedly all efficient purchases.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGpyhSZVYAAPg5m.jpg

For reference 1000g= 29 AD 46 AP 50 Armor 55 MR 385 HP 714 Mana 25% Crit 40% AS

or some combination thereof, though I think it was mentioned they could have added effects which could be taken into account and reduce the amount of raw stats they offer. (+40% AP on Deathcap maybe?)

I'd say my biggest concern is that some brusiers and assassins don't really have an item on that list and maybe Death's Dance or BotRK should get an upgrade as well.

Spoofghoul1 votes

depends really

if he has good hp regen you can just buy item 2033 item 1006 item 1006

after running into your lane with item 1054 item 2003

he is a tank, or can at least played as one and there are plenty of good options to be build from bead

this used to be my old Sion strategy, id buy 2xitem 1006 + item 2031 and use summoner 12 to go and grab item 2033 as soon as i got my hands on the required gold and i'd grab an extra bead if i could too

after that you can just spam taunts at your opponent never having to leave lane and gain advantages from pushing in that extra wave after they left or using their backtime to roam and snowball your team or deal turret damage.

ornn can do this better because he can straight up build items in lane, imagine him rushing item 3512

Wînter Fox1 votes

{quoted}

No matter how small the extra amount of damage and CC duration is, it is still more than the same champion would have if Ornn was not on the team.

How is this concept any different than a champ like Nami with her E giving her teammate extra damage and a slow on autos? Or Braum's passive allowing a stun on the fourth it? How about Sejuani's passive?

There's nothing game breaking or new about a champion increasing another champion's ability to deal damage or apply CC. The only difference is Ornn does it through exta stats on items which is an awesome and unique twist on an old concept.

Raoul1 votes

Because Namis E is exactly that, it gives 3 attacks with bonus dmg and slow, its the active and the only thing the ability does. its not an extra on another ability, like it is with Ornns mark, which is just an extra to an AoE dmg ability and his freaking Ultimate, thats literally a Nami wave with more range on the second cast...

Best Ekko NA1 votes

My only complaint comes in his Jungling, this champion is going to be everywhere with 0 downtime. This champion better have the most god-awful clear speed of any champion in the entire game or he's going to be ridiculous to deal with with all that CC.

WoonStruck1 votes

3 AoE abilities. Sorry, he's gunna have clearspeed if he's actually intended to go top lane.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

I don't think he's gonna be that insane. He's gonna be weak in lane, so he will have to recall if and when he gets bullied out. He's strong in the late game, because of his Brittle teamfight power and the hyper-late ability to upgrade his teammates' items, but it's still not an automatic win or anything, a Shockwave or a fed Jinx is still gonna shred a team. Ornn's CC is actually really underwhelming, his E knockup is hard to land in lane fights unless he gets a good Q setup and his ult is only kinda reliable, and its his ult. His W is really short ranged, so he has to use ult to get a reliable Brittle in teamfights.

He's really not gonna be that busted. His passive is helpful and strong in late game, and Brittle might be really useful in teamfights, but you might still get totally fucked up by a good enemy teamfight comp.

Darkdemon6531 votes

{quoted}

Either he is in a viable state, in which case he is going to go totaly insane and be a must pick or ban, or he is nerfed to a point where noone will ever want him on the team.

Or he could be viable to the point of being balanced but not OP or UP

There's no such thing as a champions that can't be balanced. Anything can be made good, balanced, or bad with changes to nothing but numbers.

WoonStruck2 votes

This is untrue and the reason Riot has reworked and is reworking several champions.

Darkdemon6531 votes

{quoted}

This is untrue and the reason Riot has reworked and is reworking several champions.

Make an ability and give it anything you want. If you make it OP, I will make it UP by changing only the numbers. If you make it UP, I will make it OP by changing only the numbers.

WoonStruck2 votes

OP/UP =/= balanced. You aren't exactly creating a great argument for yourself here.

Darkdemon6531 votes

{quoted}

OP/UP =/= balanced. You aren't exactly creating a great argument for yourself here.

If I can take something that is UP and make it OP by changing numbers, it can be made balanced by changing numbers. If I can take something that is OP and make it UP by changing numbers, it can be made balanced by changing numbers.

Meep Man1 votes

Actually, any champion can be balanced technically. It's mostly how they feel when balanced that forces Riot to rework them. For example, a balanced version of old Poppy, while balanced, felt terrible to play against because of binary abilities or playstyles usually. However, they can have a 50% Win Rate.

WoonStruck1 votes

50% win-rate =/= balanced.

The original AP Gragas had a 32% winrate. It was pick/ban and he got his first rework because adjusting bases/ratios didn't change how broken he was.

KawaiiShroom1 votes

When you play the game of thrones ...

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

First, buying Items with no downtime is pretty broken. Ok, we dont know if he can buy everything, but just imagine him being able to restock potions in lane, without going back.

He can't, its official.

Vallalan1 votes

You know, I can't help but for now worry with you, but let's hold the torch and pitchforks until he is actually released.

On paper he looks insanely busted, but on paper a lot of champs look busted and aren't. I remember when Ivern came out people said "wow he doesn't have to fight in the jungle and can gank more often since he spends less time ganking, he will never be balanced". and its like he came out, he was overtuned, they fixed it and now he's fine. he's a niche pick for certain players who enjoy him.

I think everyone is afraid of some of the new mechanics, but Riot is trying to keep the new champs fresh and unique, give them an identity. A champ should have something that makes you go "wow that's really good" because if they don't you just don't pick that champ.

I think people also need to realize riot is trying to update all the older champs to the level of the modern ones, but that will take time. so if you compare this new tank to say an outdated tank like malphite, or amumu, its like wow this champ is so much better. and its true. he is, he's not insanely old and riot JUST worked on him. give them some time to update the other ones and these new ones won't feel so "op", they will feel like the standard.

The only champ that has come out recently that made me feel like they were just outright broken was Camille, kit wise. and that's mainly because they gave her two very very big strengths that just seem unfair on the same kit. (massive engage range and lock down that is literally impossible to escape). there's also a strong lack of counterplay on camille's kit.

For this champ, he has two mechanics that give strength but can't be countered, but they are legit his passive. meaning he doesn't GET a passive that helps him in combat in any way. don't forget that.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

These are already things that have parallels. Take a hypercarry top and your team outscales in a 50 minute game, a scaling mechanic for the team is just another version of this. As far as extending cc goes, its still probably naut as much as taking a cc heavy champ that would just chain with everything anyway. Idk why these versions of simple mechanics are so offensive.

I'm banking on him being useless anyway. His Q requires a fair amount of teamwork to not be incredibly useless (its clearly meant to make it easier for allies to land skillshots with slow + telegraphed terrain, if you don't do that it's the worst terrain move in the game). But I do have to say his ult looks satisfying as hell.

Doozku1 votes

but just imagine him being able to restock potions in lane, without going back.

Confirmed that he can't build potions. Also I don't know this, but I have a huge feeling there's going to be a one minute cooldown between item buys, or at least there's a channel time when buying an item.

Its the part where every ally can get an upgrade that the enemy team cant get. This passive basically says that your full build team will have MORE SLOT EFFICIENT ITEMS than the enemy team every game that goes lategame.

Any hyper-scaling carry will have the ability to do this. Think of this champions as a new hyper-scaling carry. I doubt that his lane-phase will be very good to compensate for this fact. The only difference between this and someone like Veigar is that he buffs his carries and teammates as opposed to directly buffing himself, and he doesn't even reap the benefits till late game. For all intents and purposes, this passive doesn't activate until 30 minutes have passed.

In a mirror match, with the only difference being this champion, your team is already stronger than the enemy team by the start of the game

The enemy team likely picked a tank like Galio or Sion who brings more CC and damage by himself.

And these things are literally just EXTRAS to the champion. They are not full abilities, they are passives, bonuses. He still has a full 4 spell kit on top of it.

He makes allied champions stronger with no sacrifice at all.

His kit only has 2 hard CC's while most other tanks have 3. One of which requires him to have a wall to knock into, while the other is his ultimate which is also extremely telegraphed and still not as strong as CC's found on other tanks. He also misses out on having his second passive. He also really can't use the CC bonus alone as I believe it doesn't apply to knock-ups, although I could be mistaken.

DJMason881 votes

How about we wait to see actual gameplay of the champion before we make up large assumptions like this from nothing but a description of his abilities? The vids don't show anything about his passive, and we are given no numbers. Calm down.

Magical Zoe1 votes

Just be glad it isn't someone with hyper mobility and Jayce level damage.

DarkRitual1 votes

It's confirmed he can not buy potions or wards through his passive.

DevlinCrow1 votes

Yes because you write a long post like this on a champ who you have seen just a few seconds of gameplay with.

Jesus christ can you lot stop the circle jerk and wait for him to come out

BrightlordLaz1 votes

His Q and W are skillshots that don't really have huge hitboxes, he can't buy pots in lane and the teammates need to pay a lot of money for the upgrades which aren't really that game-breaking. Being a tank, he doesn't do massive amounts of damage either, even if you land all your abilities. He's not really broken enough to be nerfed, except maybe the CC.

Meep Man1 votes

Even the CC is pretty mediocre to be honest considering how situational/delayed it is. E requires terrain and R takes at least 2 seconds to get going.

Facts n Logic1 votes

Broken af, I self mitigated 143k dmg in one game. tanked syndra, jax, ammu and blitz for a solid 40 seconds without dying

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