Playing mana intensive AP mids VS Zed is beyond annoying.

Regina George·Jan 8, 2015·92 votes·9,262 views

With the not so recent mana regen nerfs, laning vs someone like Zed just became harder that it already was.

Before the mana regen changes, rushing an Armguard already affected your laning, you'll go oom so fast and can't keep up with Zed's manaless farming, now it's even worse.

I don't understand how I'm supposed to keep up with Zed as Lux (for example). I stay far away for max range spells, he has ways to bridge the gap. I tower hug and farm under turret, he can dive easily without even getting a single tower hit. I might finish the Zonya and be able to dodge his ult, but his QWE alone + ignite is enough to kill me again.

I think it's a big issue when your only option is to play a certain champion just to counter him.

Edit: I know Fizz is also a big issue right now, but he also uses mana, so he can also go oom, unlike Zed.

124 Comments

Drunk RummateJan 8, 201581 votes

Zed: WEQ. Damn I missed. Orianna: Hah! Nailed him with my QW Zed: WEQ. Clipped her with my shadow Q, nice! Orianna: Ouch. But at least I shielded in time.
Zed: WEQ. Got the E, somehow missed the Q anyways. Nice! Orianna: Glad i got my shield up in time. Even had time to QW him back! Zed: WEQ. Nailed it! Orianna: Crap. Out of mana. But at least I still have potions, and he only has 1 left! Zed: WEQ. Nailed it! Orianna: Well thats gonna be my other potion.... Zed: WEQ. Haha I'm really getting the hang of this! Orianna: Whew. Just enough mana to shield that one. Zed: WEQ. Man this game is easy. Orianna: !@#$ this shit I'm afk.

NarasimhaJan 8, 20153 votes

How the hell is he using his W so often?

Drunk RummateJan 8, 201528 votes

{quoted}

How the hell is he using his W so often?

He could cast WEQ that many times (7) in the space of 2 minutes.

In that same period of time Orianna, with a dorans ring, would regenerate about 215 mana which lets her EQW a single time. One time. If she's last hitting properly she can probably cast Q again as well.

Rew711Jan 8, 20152 votes

My favorite counter for Zed is Vladimir. Also, TwistedFate.

RikariJan 8, 201512 votes

If you play TwistedFate into Zed,well...

Rock RockburghJan 9, 20151 votes

Well what? (New player here, zero idea how that would go. Have literally never seen a Zed and the only TF I've played with kept ulting into enemy fountain to ward it.)

TheKingDodoJan 9, 20153 votes

Fountain vision allows for instant updates on your opponent's itemization allowing for counter building etc. It's strategic! Someone give that TF a medal

MrSc0ttyJan 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Zed: WEQ. Damn I missed. Orianna: Hah! Nailed him with my QW Zed: WEQ. Clipped her with my shadow Q, nice! Orianna: Ouch. But at least I shielded in time.
Zed: WEQ. Got the E, somehow missed the Q anyways. Nice! Orianna: Glad i got my shield up in time. Even had time to QW him back! Zed: WEQ. Nailed it! Orianna: Crap. Out of mana. But at least I still have potions, and he only has 1 left! Zed: WEQ. Nailed it! Orianna: Well thats gonna be my other potion.... Zed: WEQ. Haha I'm really getting the hang of this! Orianna: Whew. Just enough mana to shield that one. Zed: WEQ. Man this game is easy. Orianna: !@#$ this shit I'm afk.

You forgot

Orianna: auto auto auto auto auto auto auto auto auto

Boy glad I have this mana free ap scaling undodgeable harass. And it's a good thing my range utility and massive teamfight demolishing ult will carry me late game if I just focus on safe play and farm early.

Regina GeorgeJan 9, 201517 votes

Please find better things to counter with besides Orianna's autoattack, that's just lazy.

JsKingBooJan 9, 20151 votes

The fact that Zed is melee and Orianna is ranged is extremely significant. Especially in level 1-2 trades, weaving auto attacks between spells deals a significant amount of damage

Kosm1KJan 9, 201512 votes

Yes, most mages do have that advantage over Zed, but he problem is that zed can heavily punish them for it with his WEQ Combo that can easily do half their hp, hence why most mages tend to stay far away from zed using max range spells instead of autos, because ~60damage is not worth when you take ~300, and because most mages need to rush armguard against zed , they can't even do as much damage as he can with his spells, due to their itemization route being forced towards the defensive, while Zed can just rush brutalizer and his W passive will multiply the damage

MrSc0ttyJan 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexual Unicorn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7tkEUggF,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2015-01-09T00:38:54.782+0000)

Please find better things to counter with besides Orianna's autoattack, that's just lazy.

If you're playing a ranged champ against a melee champ and you're not attempting to deal extra free damage through autoattacks whenever the opportunity presents itself, of course you're going to lose the matchup to their superior poke/engage tools. Orianna has possibly the strongest autos of any Mage besides possibly Annie.

I'm sorry, but I really really can't accept the idea that Orianna with her amazing solo q winrate and enormous constant presence in competitive play is any way unfairly matched against anyone. That's why she's so good-Ori can trade and fight with any champ you bring to the table.

Klatn YeloxJan 9, 20151 votes

How do Annie's AA do more than Ori's?

Please enlighten me.

MrSc0ttyJan 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Klatn Yelox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7tkEUggF,comment-id=00030001000000010001,timestamp=2015-01-09T08:23:05.674+0000)

How do Annie's AA do more than Ori's?

Please enlighten me.

There's one champ in the game with a higher autoattack range than Annie.

Her name is Caitlyn.

625 range as compared to most mages 500

Klatn YeloxJan 10, 20151 votes

right. And explain why this matters when my Orianna's AA will do over 100 magic damage extra mid game. Plus I have that ult. God I love that ult.

KIeiJan 9, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Zed: WEQ. Damn I missed. Orianna: Hah! Nailed him with my QW Zed: WEQ. Clipped her with my shadow Q, nice! Orianna: Ouch. But at least I shielded in time.
Zed: WEQ. Got the E, somehow missed the Q anyways. Nice! Orianna: Glad i got my shield up in time. Even had time to QW him back! Zed: WEQ. Nailed it! Orianna: Crap. Out of mana. But at least I still have potions, and he only has 1 left! Zed: WEQ. Nailed it! Orianna: Well thats gonna be my other potion.... Zed: WEQ. Haha I'm really getting the hang of this! Orianna: Whew. Just enough mana to shield that one. Zed: WEQ. Man this game is easy. Orianna: !@#$ this shit I'm afk.

LOL. Sounds about correct.

Father CthulhuJan 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Zed: WEQ. Damn I missed. Orianna: Hah! Nailed him with my QW Zed: WEQ. Clipped her with my shadow Q, nice! Orianna: Ouch. But at least I shielded in time.
Zed: WEQ. Got the E, somehow missed the Q anyways. Nice! Orianna: Glad i got my shield up in time. Even had time to QW him back! Zed: WEQ. Nailed it! Orianna: Crap. Out of mana. But at least I still have potions, and he only has 1 left! Zed: WEQ. Nailed it! Orianna: Well thats gonna be my other potion.... Zed: WEQ. Haha I'm really getting the hang of this! Orianna: Whew. Just enough mana to shield that one. Zed: WEQ. Man this game is easy. Orianna: !@#$ this shit I'm afk.

Should have know she need the shield more and not w'd....

Drunk RummateJan 9, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Galifrey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7tkEUggF,comment-id=00030004,timestamp=2015-01-09T17:03:39.654+0000)

Should have know she need the shield more and not w'd....

Yeah because it's totally fair that Zed can use his entire kit to harass you on cooldown while you're relegated to using only one ability and only for defensive purposes while he shoves the wave in on you at no cost.

Kholdstare13Jan 8, 201513 votes

One thing URF got right: remove mana.

SmokingPuffinJan 8, 201512 votes

Chalice nerf hit mana intensive champions pretty hard. Of course, that was intended, Chalice was trivializing mana as a mechanic. Probably we will see some mana cost rebalancing on particularly problematic champions after things have settled down a bit.

Lux needs to right click Zed often. It's still a bad matchup, but it becomes impossible if you play passive.

UiruJan 8, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Chalice nerf hit mana intensive champions pretty hard. Of course, that was intended, Chalice was trivializing mana as a mechanic. Probably we will see some mana cost rebalancing on particularly problematic champions after things have settled down a bit.

Lux needs to right click Zed often. It's still a bad matchup, but it becomes impossible if you play passive.

Trivializing mana as a mechanic sounds pretty good when the flavour of the season has been resourceless/energy(lol) champs (such as Zed, surprise surprise). "But but they get to ignore their mana after buying one item" sounds ridiculous until you consider the VERY large proportion of in-meta champs who get to start buying damage or resistances instead immediately. Nerfing mana regen and shitting on mages, many of whom are also immobile, is just another example of Riot's balance team not knowing what game they're playing. (The correct answer was to BUFF immobile mages, but that might hurt the adc's ability to right click to win so it'll never happen.)

Also, seriously? Right click Zed, eat a shuriken and maybe a shadow+aa if he feels like it. That sounds like a trade in Lux's favor. Just because she isn't Sona squishy doesn't mean she isn't like #2 or #3. Lux vs Zed is a pretty good example of several different ways this game is currently slipping off the rails; mobility heavily favored (and Lux's ms gets a nerf, bravo, Riot!), no resources celebrated while resources punished, skillshots rewarding less than point and click. Lux can play perfectly and still get outfarmed and outroamed due to Zed's inability to leave lane, whereas the slightest misstep on her part is an instant, practically auto-scripted death. Meanwhile, getting a kill on Zed requires several mistakes on his part thanks to not being the squishiest squishy who ever squished AND get out of jail free cards. (You trapped him under turret with a binding. Great. Now he's out at half health and you're probably dead anyway.) It's POSSIBLE to win it, I've certainly done it, but two brain cells in Zed's head to rub together and any Lux is going to have an awful time being forced to choose between building mana regen to not have to back every three minutes and Armguard to not instantly disintegrate at 6 (but still back a whole bunch). ~Uiru

SmokingPuffinJan 8, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Trivializing mana as a mechanic sounds pretty good when the flavour of the season has been resourceless/energy(lol) champs (such as Zed, surprise surprise).

The correct solution here isn't allowing everyone to ignore resources and spam abilities.

It's making every resource mechanic a reasonably balanced limiter on ability use.

Also, seriously? Right click Zed, eat a shuriken and maybe a shadow+aa if he feels like it. That sounds like a trade in Lux's favor.

It's a bad matchup, but Lux's best chance is to aggressively use her range advantage. If you let Zed freely auto the minions and harass with Q, you will definitely lose the lane.

JJI744Jan 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The correct solution here isn't allowing everyone to ignore resources and spam abilities.

It's making every resource mechanic a reasonably balanced limiter on ability use.

It's a bad matchup, but Lux's best chance is to aggressively use her range advantage. If you let Zed freely auto the minions and harass with Q, you will definitely lose the lane.

Lux AAs> takes minion aggro.

Lux has taken almsot as much damage as she dealt with autos, but she doesn't rush sustain in her first item. Lux also can't just shadow away if the enemy jungler decides to gank the now pushed midlane.

Unironic SJWJan 8, 20153 votes

"buffing immobile mages so that fizz/zed/akali/etc are played less is a nerf to adcs"

Hyrum GraffJan 8, 201512 votes

I like that mana costs are meaningful again. However.

Before chalice nerfs, Zed and other spam-happy energy champs, and manaless champs, were more balanced, because while they could spam, so could their mana-using lane opponent. Now that mana gating exists again, Zed can easily shove lane, harass, and run mana users oom.

SmokingPuffinJan 8, 20156 votes

I agree that, at least on some champions, mana cost rebalancing needs to happen.

I don't really think that Zed running mages oom is the source of his power. It happens on a few champions, but for most mages the threat of running out of health is the pressing issue.

Right now, I think the main thing that's wrong with Zed is that his R is just obnoxiously safe and lets him misplay super hard and still live. Assassin all-ins are supposed to be risky and punishable.

Hyrum GraffJan 9, 20152 votes

For mages without damage mitigation (shields or mobility that allows them to dodge/juke), I agree with you.

Mages who have one of those things have a choice. They can spend mana to use the abilities and not take damage, or they can take the damage instead. Those mages, zed will run oom, and consequently low on hp.

iainB85Jan 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Chalice nerf hit mana intensive champions pretty hard. Of course, that was intended, Chalice was trivializing mana as a mechanic. Probably we will see some mana cost rebalancing on particularly problematic champions after things have settled down a bit.

Lux needs to right click Zed often. It's still a bad matchup, but it becomes impossible if you play passive.

When they keep releasing resourceless/energy base champions like Zed/Rek'Sai/Gnar/Yasuo then they might as well just do away with the mana mechanic all together and balance around positioning and use of skills. It's absurd to think that it is balanced some champions are resourceless while having zero real downsides while others aren't.

SmokingPuffinJan 9, 20153 votes

If there is a problem here, and I'm not certain there is, it's the idea of having a resource that offers "zero real downsides", as you put it. Every ability system ought to have upsides and downsides.

You can't say "Zed has no energy management, so I should have no mana management". That trivializes the resource systems. Zed should have to manage his energy and Lux should have to manage her mana.

BorblandJan 8, 20156 votes

True. Only way to counter him is getting Zhonya as first item. Meanwhile, you're behind at farm, sacrifice mana items to get it fast.

And when you get Zhonya, Zed already roamed everywhere going 5/0.

I can handle the broken fish, because even if he's OP in my opinion, he can still be countered with good timing on the CC and he has high manacost on his E.

But Zed has mobility, no manacosts, poke, burst, and even minion/chmapion execution on his passive. Only "weakness": Being melee. But hey, his Q range is somewhat Lux worthy.

RogueWillJan 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

True. Only way to counter him is getting Zhonya as first item. Meanwhile, you're behind at farm, sacrifice mana items to get it fast.

And when you get Zhonya, Zed already roamed everywhere going 5/0.

I can handle the broken fish, because even if he's OP in my opinion, he can still be countered with good timing on the CC and he has high manacost on his E.

But Zed has mobility, no manacosts, poke, burst, and even minion/chmapion execution on his passive. Only "weakness": Being melee. But hey, his Q range is somewhat Lux worthy.

I counter him with Katarina, just having her in lane means zed won't be able to use his shadow, because if he does he will be vulnerable to a E+Q+W combo. Similar to katarina there is a bunch of mobile mages that can capitalize the misuse of zed shadow. (diana, akali, fizz) Players don't realize how hard is to play as zed, sure, he has an insane burst but if you survive it or dodge it completely he is defenseless and open to heavy punishment.

BorblandJan 8, 20158 votes

Sorry, my friend, but we're currently talking 'bout mana mages. Katarina is far of being one one those mana mages.

Cause i have no problems vs Zed in rankeds, I'll just pick Lissandra and over

JJI744Jan 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, my friend, but we're currently talking 'bout mana mages. Katarina is far of being one one those mana mages.

Cause i have no problems vs Zed in rankeds, I'll just pick Lissandra and over

And for the record, and Kat that uses E to jupm onto Zed would lose the damage trade along with being free kills for a halfway compotent jungler.

CindikleJan 8, 20154 votes

Zed for sure needs a look at. I'm sure Riot is aware of this by now. Since the forums are 1/3 Zed QQ or chalice nerf QQ.

Also Fizz got a buff. Most mana regen sources got buffed with the change while chalice was overall gutted. Champions who didn't live off chalice but use mana were slightly buffed. Which is why Fizz seems so powerful currently.

AlorasenceJan 8, 20154 votes

Playing against Zed as pretty much...

any... mid....

is annoying.

#banthatchamp

D1rtFarmerJan 9, 20153 votes

"**In short, vs Zed I feel like I'm always playing defensively, I can't make my own plays to kill him, I can only survive his plays and only kill him if he makes a big mistake like wasting a shadow while his ult is down while his jungler is showing bottom. ** I feel like Mages don't really have the right kit to deal with champions like Zed and there are a lot of mages out there. I feel like mages need an item like QSS, with armor, that stacks into an AP item in the end. Kind of like Mercurial Scimitar but it builds out of an armor QSS and a needlessly large rod.

This way I could rush the armor QSS and if he ults me, I can just activate it and trade back with my own kit.

The only champ that I dislike as much as Zed in the laning phase is Malzahar, his damage over time does too much damage for the skill needed to apply it (none) and his ultimate has no counter play outside of an item like QSS again (that builds into a useless AD item for mages)."

Best post yet__

NarasimhaJan 8, 20152 votes

I tower hug and farm under turret, he can dive easily without even getting a single tower hit.

If you can't snare him when he dives on you, and its happening consistently, then chances are its on you.

Regina GeorgeJan 8, 201511 votes

Never said it happened consistently, I said he COULD dive easily.

I'm pretty confident with my Lux thank you very much.

TheMontrealBagelJan 9, 20153 votes

Epic name mdude. Also I agree, zed needs some work

MPendragonJan 8, 20152 votes

TwistedFate Try this, except - wait for your jungler to initiate before going all-in.

Harass with Q, blue cards or red cards, but play very safe - don't waste Flash for no reason because it's going to be your only saving grace for Gold carding Zed under your tower and actually winning mid against him.

But, you shouldn't have any mana problems, especially if you pick up a Flask.

I think I won mid with TF vs Zed the other day, and I wound up with something crazy like 2800 - 3200 gold before I even had my first back. I think Zed had retreated twice or three times by the time I backed.

XinZhao Despite popular belief of where people think Xin Zhao should be laning, I honestly believe he should destroy Zed middle.

Drunk RummateJan 8, 20156 votes

TF loses lane to just about everyone as a general rule. He has no combat ultimate so even if he performs well pre6 he has no way to secure kills. As a mid you just waveclear and roam with him. Zed actually beats TF very handily in lane so you must have had a lot of jungle help while he had none.

Bruisers beat assassins just as a general rule. People don't take bruisers mid because they don't have enough waveclear to consistently roam and they have a hard time abusing their ability to duel in a lane that's surrounded by enemy players.

RogueWillJan 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

TF loses lane to just about everyone as a general rule. He has no combat ultimate so even if he performs well pre6 he has no way to secure kills. As a mid you just waveclear and roam with him. Zed actually beats TF very handily in lane so you must have had a lot of jungle help while he had none.

Bruisers beat assassins just as a general rule. People don't take bruisers mid because they don't have enough waveclear to consistently roam and they have a hard time abusing their ability to duel in a lane that's surrounded by enemy players.

Thats true. However Annie is the exception. Her q+w can actually wave clear insanely fast. Her q alone will push it decently if you are concern about her mana. Add a Teleport instead of your flash (don't forget to ward) and you can roam quite as much as any other assassin.

Sightless66Jan 8, 20154 votes

Not taking flash on Annie? Not really my plan. Flash Tibbers is the number one way she wins games. Why not just take teleport as the secondary summoner and still have flash?

1vLiNK096CJan 8, 20152 votes

I really don't think it is that much of a problem.

I can normally 2 shot a Zed as Viktor, and Veigar - and they're bad against people who fly at them or gap-close.

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 8, 20157 votes

Until he buys Hexdrinker.

AkeitoJan 8, 20151 votes

Play Lissandra

Regina GeorgeJan 8, 201516 votes

That's why I said

[{quoted}](name=Sexual Unicorn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7tkEUggF,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-08T18:46:36.937+0000)

I think it's a big issue when your only option is to play a certain champion just to counter him.

Grunt666Jan 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Play

cept they (liss and kayle) really don't counter him. Counter pick actually like COUNTERS as in beats the piss out of the opponent not haha i can hopefully break even!

WutsKrakenJan 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

cept they (liss and kayle) really don't counter him. Counter pick actually like COUNTERS as in beats the piss out of the opponent not haha i can hopefully break even!

Kayle nerfs hurt her against Zed but...

If you are not completely murdering the shit out of Zed as Lissandra in lane...you are doing something REALLY wrong

Grunt666Jan 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Kayle nerfs hurt her against Zed but...

If you are not completely murdering the shit out of Zed as Lissandra in lane...you are doing something REALLY wrong

Would disagree, i dont think there is a single champ that can stop zed from farming. So I am not sure how exactly liss can murder zed, i will admit i really have not seen the match up before. Personally I used swain vs zed and always did well, still though i don't think it justifies the safety of which zed can lane and roam while also being such an easy champ to delete a carry with.