Feeders are really breaking the game - Change ranked to attribute personal score rather than overall

captcha or lose·Jun 12, 2019·2 votes·2,046 views

I've had it, for 3 years I keep getting matched with idiot teams who keep throwing while the enemy almost always seem to be in-sync. I had a 60% win rate and then go on massive losing sprees. used to have a 60% win rate on my 1 trick too. But with a bunch of lose sprees riot threw my way due to ridiculous matchmaking, I have dropped in elo and mmr and hopes of climbing. Everytime, EVERY SINGLE TIME I GET TO GOLD 1 AND HIGH GOLD 2 I START GETTING THE WORST GAMES THIS CAN'T BE COINCIDENCE OVER 3 YEARS - literally people who target me for NO REASON OTHER THAN EXISTING IN THE LOBBY saying they're gonna feed to make me lose. LIKE WHAT? then riot decides to ban you for showing your frustration instead of the people who are ACTUALLY MAKING THE GAME A NEGATIVE EXPERIENCE. CHANGE RANKED so that my individual performance and grade is much more of a contributor to my rank than relying on some half-assed sorry shits who either don't care about the game or are intentionally losing. At least that way I will care less about the loss and get tilted way less. That way I CAN'T POSSIBLY BLAME TEAM IF MY OWN PERFORMANCE = MY RANK, how about for a loss when I went 14/4/8 and got objectives, and ended with an S, I DON'T lose 16 LP, but instead something like 5 LP? How about if I win when I go 1/12 I only gain 5 LP as opposed to 20 LP or whatever? The grading system should play into the ranked system instead of just a fancy validating score. If I got an S, I damn ought not to be fucking demoted cause some ass-clown decided to tower dive level 2, or run it down mid, or give at ff 15 or don't know how to pick for comp or know their champ or mechanics. Game is broken, this season takes the cake for worst season I've played and worst lose streaks I've experienced. No one logically stays the same rank for 3 years, getting better stats on my champs yet going nowhere. Ridiculous.

15 Comments

Kai GuyJun 12, 20193 votes

Issue is that playing for stats is always easier then playing to win so most Dev's common solution is to add stats to a MMR system. Which.... doesn't fix your issue of bad teammates feeding what so ever but adds an entirely new subset of assholes who give up and play to stat pad all game to protect their LP loss any time they have low faith in teammates.

And a lot of players are so fucking stupid they literally give up if 1 lane does badly... Because I guess they just assume that all 5 players on their team should be better 100% of the time then the enemy team?

Some ones gonna get outclassed on your team sometimes. It can be brutally 1 sided. Losing your shit every time it happens is just a recepie to tilt yourself and teammates.

As players, We would all benefit far more from Stricter Player behavior systems. Bans from ranked Ques rather then the game entirely for example. Removal of more toxic players.

Even if its only 1 in 10 players in a MMR range who have negative behavior you see them almost 100% over 2-3 matches.

PVP games quality is directly impacted by the quality of all P's involved. Not a complicated concept.

captcha or loseJun 12, 20191 votes

Yea true, but I really shouldn't be losing 13/20 games when I have a >50% Average to so many games where it's literally the cause of someone else clearly. 1/9 1/8 1/6 tower diving level 3, it just goes on and on. Die twice? Just sit under turret and wait to catch up. If it's a loss later, it's a loss. But it's so stupid to have to be losing so much LP because of the fault of others.

Kai GuyJun 12, 20192 votes

Yea but the flip side is you gain a lot of LP because of the Fault of others as well. And your statistically favored to win more off bad players then you will lose. Its just math. your 1 slot on your team 100% so the worst player in the game has 4/9 of being on your team and 5/9 for the enemy.

Just remember that Not every player has the same MMR stakes in a game. If they got a low # of matches on the account they paid a higher price in MMR then you did.

Subjective systems are very difficult to automate And basically worthless if they don't account for wins/losses.

Despite what a lot of boards users say, communication is a core part of this game. Some times you need to put effort into correcting a teammates misplays and mistakes. Mute all only helps if your gonna hard carry solo always.

captcha or loseJun 16, 20191 votes

Fair point, but that takes the assumption the game is working 100% efficiently in terms of matchmaking. The fact is when you're on a win streak it puts you with people on a lose streak, lower rank and lower mmr against a team with objectively stronger opponents in terms of stats and win rates.

Kai GuyJun 16, 20191 votes

What is the # of games you consider a streak? Because different values will be different odds and I want to make shure you and I are on the same page. Be honest, a streak in your opinion is how many matches in a row?

Do you check the stats for your enemies every time you win and make shure their win rates and stats are not worse then your team?

If you think you don't deserve a loss because of mismatched stats then do you feel its fair to say that you don't deserve the win for mismatched enemy teams with lower stats then your team ?

Of course... that's a slight problem if you think your better then your MMR because your assumption is that in every game your playing its mismatched because your better then the average enemy/teammate. And if the system can be wrong about you how come you expect it to be 100% on everbody else?

Are you aware that MMR is more like a banking Balance then leaderboard? Gonna tie back to the first question about streaks. Need folks to understand what a reasonable expectation is.

A lot of the time it feels like a conversation about "its always the last place you look" Because who the hell keeps looking for something after they find it? Lost my keys. oh found them in my desk the 3rd spot I looked. Nobody thinks "Well i Better spend another 10 min looking for my keys just incase they are in my closet or coat pocket." Instead its always the last place you check... not because its magically difficult to find which is what most folks think that phrase means when they use it but cuz you obviously stop looking once you find what's missing. Any change to a streak ends it after you consider it established. The highest likely event to end a streak if your playing above your level is bad teamamtes. That should be the most likely reason your team lost.

Why do you treat it like an misfortunate or unrealistic event and think its gonna be riots fault. MMR and Elo are made with ranges because the expectation is humans are not consistent 100% of the time and there's variance to performances that are uncontrollable.

Also I hate any claims that implies a rigged MMR system. Those cant work. MMR is made from ELO and that is made from win% and tracking who is playing who then applying some probability expectations around class intervals that are made to be self correcting so that you have accurate probability results off the expectations. You force the win % it wont match probability theory or distribution so then the end result it makes has no meaning as a measurement of skill. So you have to swap from MMR/ELO to a different system to rig matches. Rigged and Elo have the exact opposite end goals. Elo wants bad to sink and good to rise. Rigged wants to boost bad up and sink good down. This is not compatible.

So recap. Reply to anything you want. Use quote boxes and I will address it specifically. What I need from you is

What is the # of games you consider a streak? If you think you don't deserve a loss because of mismatched stats then do you feel its fair to say that you don't deserve the win for mismatched enemy teams with lower stats then your team? Are you aware that MMR is more like a banking Balance then leaderboard?

captcha or loseJun 18, 20191 votes

A streak is at least 3 games to me, and I keep having many 4 and 5 game lose streaks, after having 3-5 game win sprees.

There's a difference between mismatched teams and getting mostly teams where's either one to multiple players going 10+ deaths, people who join lobby and immediately start griefing like banning champs and saying they're gonna feed. Then people who AFK, people who tower dive and do the dumbest things, not listen to pings. It's just too much. Just went from a 60% win rate to 51%, just had a 6 game lose streak with mostly feeding teams, I'm done with this game, it's too obviously rigged to put you in unwinnable scenarios. They don't want people climbing too fast. It's just strange that I seem to get so much of them especially this season. It's gotten worse, they're just broken the game. Too frequent, that it isn't even rigging it's just a trash community with trash players.

Kai GuyJun 18, 20191 votes

It's gotten worse, they're just broken the game. Too frequent, that it isn't even rigging it's just a trash community with trash players.

More or less but mostly due to the nature of the games distribution of population impacted by toxicity. For example 10% toxic population would be distributed into almost every game. https://www.wizards.com/dnd/dice/dice.htm Roll 9 D10 dice. Pick a number 1 to 10. This represents 10% odds in a simple way. Roll it 10 times. Any time you see that number show up in any string of 9 you had a "toxic player.

Its difficult to even see a streak of 4 games with out a toxic player on 1 of the teams.

streak is at least 3 games to me, and I keep having many 4 and 5 game lose streaks, after having 3-5 game win sprees.

https://www.random.org/coins/?num=150&cur=60-usd.0025c-pa

Completely fair virtual coin flips. 50% odds. No rigging. Try a few flips and see if streaks happen all the time. If I use 3 as my streak counter then lets break down some stuff. My results. 21 streaks over 150 coins. 77 Games in a streak. 73 games not in a streak.

Over 50% of my matches are part of a win or loss streak in 50% odds if we use 3.For league personally I use 10+ for a win or loss streak of which I had 0 streak.

Exact same results but perception impacts results. If you think 3 or higher is relevant you see over 50% of the games are part of a streak pattern. I consider 10+ to be relevant so I see all of 0 flips in a streak. The flips are exactly the same regardless of your streak count thou.

Also MMR wont give a dam about a streak the way we see it. If every flip was a game and had identical System expectations your Ending mmr is the same. 1+1+1+1+1-1-1-1-1-1 | 1-1-1-1-1-1+1+1+1+1 |1+1-1-1+1+1-1-1+1-1 All have the same ending balance regardless of the order generated. It would matter for LP and tiers but that's just a distraction

captcha or loseJun 18, 20191 votes

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about, I am sick of this fucking game I just fucking quit getting demoted on 2 different accounts? Going on a 6 game lose spree on one than a 4 game on the other? You shill. Screw this game, I am losing almost all my games that matter because of fucking clowns in my games, this is a fucking joke.

Kai GuyJun 19, 20191 votes

Recap. I gave you numbers for representing 10% toxcisity showing up RNG for 9 players. Unrealated to Riot just the fuckign basic math.

I gave you what a streak of 3 looks like at 50% odds. I gave you the ability to fucking check this on your own so you don't just have to take my word for it.

Then I gave you information on how MMR and Elo function. The math of end results not giving a fuck about the ORDER of games so much as the net total. which is how these systems work and you can check if you ever bothered to do a basic google on them. When you do, what you will learna bout is K factor and the impact that has on weight on early games vs later ones but you probably wont even bother to look up the system used so I avoided discussing K factors or We Generation with you.

I don't know what I am talking about? bro, I gave you numbers and the theory behind things. I showed math and explained why I used it.

If im wrong, it should be fairly easy to show. Disprove my numbers if I am wrong. That shit should be pretty easy. I welcome an opportunity to correct my own knowledge if some one can logically prove I need to.

Bitching about shit teammates? Its a PvP game. The quality of your game is off the quality of your playerbase. Remember me talking about player toxicity? That shit matters.

Feel free to quit if you don't like the game. no one is forcing you. If you think you want to play Mobas… like you enjoy the gameplay concept behind league but just don't want to play it anymore. I am happy to take the time to provide you a list of games like it and will take the time to help you try to find one you might enjoy.

I want gamers and nerds to have fun and enjoy themselves. so quit if you need. If your not enjoying the game simply because sometimes you lose then its not a good game for you.

Need any recommendations on a game bug me let me know what you like. I don't mind investing some of my time to help a fellow gamer.

But man the insults? That's uncool. Look If I'm wrong, you should be able to correct it. If you cant disprove anything I say... Perhaps you should take a page from Arpad Elo and try to be self correcting.

I get being frustrated but try to remember there's a human on the other end of this conversation. So, if you just insult me in your next reply... Im done. I am bowing out of the conversation because its just a wasted effort at that point.

SaezioJun 12, 20192 votes

You just peaked

You climb in MMR meaning you play vs better people and can't have such a big influence as in lower elos. That's how it's supposed to be.

I don't get why people always think it's conspiracy when smurfs get 100% winrates from unranked all the way up to diamond 5 lol

captcha or loseJun 14, 20191 votes

You're right, has nothing to do with people throwing games. In a game where 9 other people can affect the outcome, 4 of them being on my team as opposed to just me has nothing to do with it. Why didn't I think of that? My 1/8 jungler and 4/16 bot would disagree with you when I was 3/1 :/ but what do they know? or maybe the 1/10 renekton top when i was 11/4 jinx adc? Yea, doubt I've 'peaked' when I'm still performing well in my games, performing better than people who are supposedly in a higher rank than I am. It's been 3 years now of FREQUENTLY going on win streaks followed by even worse lose streaks when I'm in the middle of any division climb, whether I'm rocketing past S2-S1 (still experience it there, but with less severity since I carry harder) and then again in G2-G1. Why do you think I'm alluding to a 'conspiracy'? Is that your attempt to debase my argument by using a pejorative? I just think their algorithm for matchmaking and attempt to keep players at 50% (indirectly through the likelihood of winning a game by say putting you in a group of average gold 4 vs a group of average gold 1 is clearly unfair and slanted heavily in one sides favour) There's no 'conspiracy' that is literally how they openly say they've designed matchmaking. That process indirectly forces players close to 50%, look at the average win rate for every player on any of the servers, you mention exceptions but like any data set those are just anomalies. Obviously A diamond in gold 1 against people who are even plat 2 will still stomp, what sort of argument is that?

SaezioJun 15, 20192 votes

Yeah it's your team's fault that you average 4,7 CS ON YOUR MAIN.

You need to accept you are bad, that's step 1.

Then you need to improve

captcha or loseJun 16, 20191 votes

Yea, firstly Fizz is not a cs heavy champ, in Gold, his average cs for all players is 4.8, in plat it's 5.1. The 'average' for those games is not reliable anyway and your confirmation bias is showing through lack of proper use of data. If you look at the games I have won my cs is consistently 5+ as high at 6. That is because Fizz is a melee champ, and can't farm when poked out or behind. It's objectively harder to have good cs when you're losing, and since my win rate is around 50%, it took the bad cs scores from when either myself or my team played poorly- mostly the latter- where my cs can be as low as 3.5. My high cs with fizz is 5.5+, so I'm not to worried about your obsessive need to tell people they need to get better. I know I perform better than my teammates 80% of the time that I lose. Only 20% is my fault, and I accept when I made mistakes in game. However, losing frequently because of scores like 0/10 players, many a times having 2 of them on my team would be nonsensical to blame on myself. I can improve my gameplay all I want, which I have, my stats this season on my mains are better every season including this one, but nothing can stop AFKs, trolls, feeders, griefers. Which there are plenty of and you'd be damn ignorant to deny they exist and in the numbers that they do- it's no secret league of legends has one of the worst online communities.

captcha or loseJun 16, 20191 votes

You have no idea what you're talking about http://www.leaguemath.com/farm-and-wards-per-league-per-role/

Averages aren't what you focus on, look at my wins, those are usually 4.9+ and as high as 7.2.

For a mid laner Fizz, a melee, it is hard to farm when you're behind and if the teams feeding- it is objectively harder to farm when you don't have turret cover and are getting ganked by ahead team and roamers. In games where I lost my farm is lower, but that isn't causation-correlation necessarily - and as a matter of fact I could be farming poorly BECAUSE my team is losing.

My 'average' is slightly under where you should be on that table, but in my good games with good teams I am above. The average for Fizz players in Gold is 4.8, 0.1 above my average, for plat it's 5.1, which I do reach in my winning games. According to stats for my season I'm S for combat, A for income, S- for map control. This is the average of almost a hundred games over the whole season.

So, before you obsessively react to those having a hard time due to matchmaking by telling them they're not good enough, I know my stats have been improving season by season, with the best stats this season. This account isn't even my main, the stats I mentioned are from that.

I do have bad games, but in 3 years of playing I would estimate my losses are around 25% my fault and 75% teams fault. Games I am clearly ahead in, but have 1 person going 2/12 and another going 1/10 is no fault of mine. And when this happens for multiple games in a row and on a frequent basis, it's really unenjoyable.

captcha or loseJun 14, 20191 votes

All you deniers in the comments are pretty wrong, considering you only cherry pick anomalies, and ignore the vast data that the average win rate in any server among the entire ranked database is around 50%, while objectively if you went from server to server you would see changes due to varying factors such as skil, time spent in game and so on. The fact that this is a recurring event, with almost everyone playing long enough experiencing the same difficulties with unfair matchmaking in the top end of the division is enough evidence to warrant the system is in fact broken. it also has to do with how people around these division borders are arguably saltier and more tilted. The fact is that we shouldn't be ranked based simply on a win or a loss but our performance despite that win or loss. If i contributed less to a win, I should get less LP, if I wasn't one of the biggest causes of the loss I should less less LP than those who were. That way you can also tell if you really were what lost the game or not.