He has no mobility, no healing, no defensive abilities, no stealth, and no hard CC. The only other champion who fits that description is Karthus, and he gets to stick around and keep blasting things for a while after getting killed.
Given that Koggy offers nothing else aside from damage and a decent slowing field that costs an obscene amount of mana, shouldn't he be good at doing the things he does, given that he only does two things?
Posui Gart10 votesHe can kill whole enemy team in 3-4 seconds (talking about 6-slotted Kogmaw) unless he is killed. Botrk-Runaan-Guinsoo-boots and 2 more items and he will kill even 4k hp tank in seconds with all that % damage
Rebonack13 votes[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7lNopELY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-13T18:46:24.783+0000)
He can kill whole enemy team in 3-4 seconds (talking about 6-slotted Kogmaw) unless he is killed. Botrk-Runaan-Guinsoo-boots and 2 more items and he will kill even 4k hp tank in seconds with all that % damage
And MF can kill the whole enemy team in 3 seconds, too. Except she does it from a safer range and she can actually hit everyone rather than just three targets who happen to be humping each other's legs.
That's the problem with Riot trying to balance Koggy around being the centerpiece ADC. Kog's success is largely in the hands of his team protecting him. MF does it better because the agency is all on her just using her Ult at the right time. And that's not even considering her significantly stronger early game.
Why would you want to play Protect the Kog when Protect the MF is so much easier and more rewarding?
Posui Gart11 votesBecause MF ult can be cancelled/baited/dodged while Kogmaw's W has low cd. Well MF's ult is actually strong too, as well as MF herself, and not only late.
Melledoneus1 votes
and 
are basically assassins now.
Posui Gart16 votesYou somehow forgot 
, or "permahomeguard ranged assassin with target knockback, slow, ranged attacks and 3x passive"
Melledoneus2 votesBut at least she has to proc her marks on you to kill you. Tristana can E then auto you twice and you're dead, MF can press R and waveclear the enemy team, and Graves is self-explanatory.
I see Quinn as more of a bursty ranged fighter than an assassin, at least until late game.
Posui Gart5 votesIts not that hard, she has to AA you after her E thats easy with E knockback and slow Seriously, that jungle Quinns are getting almost to Mundo level of "can't do anything, if he ganks-you are dead"
Melledoneus1 votesAt least Quinn is the most fragile champion ever.
Chaotic Reks2 votesgotcha covered:
Melledoneus1 votesDoesn't stop assassins from ripping her a new one.
Chaotic Reks1 voteswhat assassin is getting close to her? i mean let's be serious here.
Melledoneus3 votes
And then we have honorable mentions 
and 
(This guy especially)
SolusInCadere2 votesexatly. saves my ass so much as ADC, especially when I can benifet from the CDR
kaltenashes5 votes
u said what?
elon wątroba2 votesNice, going to remove dust from my arcade mf skin.
Knoyle9 votes
"Guys? Guys I actually have the assassin sub class in my description! Why are you laughing!? Oh forget it, I'm going back to the sewers where everybody thinks I'm cool."
kaltenashes2 votesI Demand A Sandwich
hello? ,does anybody remembers me? or my sandwich
i think that twitch can do some stuff with high as and multiple target items when he ults, still its better than kog
Melledoneus4 votesIt's so sad how Riot wanted to push an assassin role upon Twitch and they didn't even put in enough effort to finish the job...
Rebonack3 votesIt's so sad how Riot wanted to push an assassin role upon Twitch and they didn't even put in enough effort to finish the job...
I would love it if Twitch got instant stealth and on-assist cooldown reset on his stealth. It would be crazy strong, but if Riot balanced him around those factors it would make for a very cool play pattern that really isn't covered by any other ADC.
Anidan4 votesHonestly, if Twitch got instant stealth, that'd feel like some complete bullshit to play against. And besides that, we already know about how well Riot knows how to balance stealth...
Hint, in case you don't know: They can't. They can't balance stealth at all. They have no idea how to - they've tried, and failed.
A Palmtop Tiger2 votes[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7lNopELY,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T19:09:24.794+0000)
Because MF ult can be cancelled/baited/dodged while Kogmaw's W has low cd. Well MF's ult is actually strong too, as well as MF herself, and not only late.
Wrong. Kog W is off about 50% of the time unless you get CDR from Nashors or something. That still means there is 5-6 seconds where your W is on CD and you lose a ton of damage and range.
Kog was way stronger b4 the changes to him. I had a Kog only account I got to Diamond 4 playing only Kog mid and adc. Now he takes more time than ever to scale and it is near impossible to kite with him while keeping up the optimal damage.
Hawkefire3 votesHonestly I attribute that to MF being a tad too strong right now, whereas Kog is a tad undertuned.
We really have to be very careful buffing Kog as he has potential to go from seemingly underpowered to very very broken fairly quickly with his current state.
Perhaps buffing Kogs slow might help him out a bit? He is very easy to engage on right now, even when teams are built around stopping that from happening, especially with how immobile his W makes him if he wants to use it effectively. Perhaps another idea would be to give his W a psuedo-poppy treatment, where when you are on it you are "rooted" but instead of being like the normal rooted condition you can still move at a reduced movement speed but cannot use mobility skills.
Rebonack2 votesHonestly I attribute that to MF being a tad too strong right now, whereas Kog is a tad undertuned.
We really have to be very careful buffing Kog as he has potential to go from seemingly underpowered to very very broken fairly quickly with his current state.
Perhaps buffing Kogs slow might help him out a bit? He is very easy to engage on right now, even when teams are built around stopping that from happening, especially with how immobile his W makes him if he wants to use it effectively. Perhaps another idea would be to give his W a psuedo-poppy treatment, where when you are on it you are "rooted" but instead of being like the normal rooted condition you can still move at a reduced movement speed but cannot use mobility skills.
There are a lot of things Riot could do with Kog to try to bring him up to par.
A lot of things.
But if they wanted to take things easy, the simplest path would be to change the damage reduction on W from 55% to 50% and then give the thing a bonus AD ratio for the %HP damage. If Kog is too weak early, they could scale up the base %HP damage. If he's too strong or too weak late, then the bonus AD ratio could be adjusted. Simply by tweaking those two values back and forth, Riot could probably find a sweet-spot for Kog.
That is, of course, assuming they don't decide to go with something a little more ambitious, such as a new Innate.
WookieJesuz7 votes
+
+
+
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WHO DARES TOUCH OUR LORD AND SAVIOR KOGMAW
Posui Gart5 votes
uses ult, putting everyone but Kog in stasis
with blackshield: Hey guys... GUYS!!!! DONT STAND THERE AND HELP ME!!!!!!!
Kog's teammates: Ok, we are out of stasis, lets save Kog... oh, too late
qetzel11 votesSuch an ultimate deserves to win a teamfight.
Rebonack2 votesSuch an ultimate deserves to win a teamfight.
And I agree.
If Miss Fortune pulls off a good Ult paired with AoE CC from her team, then she deserves to win a team fight. That's her thing. That's why you pick her.
Kog can't compete with that. His early game is weaker. His late game is harder to pull off since his team needs to constantly peel for him as he lacks MF's ability to dance around the edge of a fight. He needs to do his thing uninterrupted a lot longer to annihilate the enemy team than MF does.
Honestly, I don't think Riot should be trying to make Kog compete with champions like MF or Jinx or even Twitch. Those are all champs you can build a team around. As crazy as it might sound, a more workable solution would be to treat Kog'Maw as the Juggernaut Marksmen in much the same way that Graves is the Fighter Marksmen. All Koggy would need is a new Innate that ramps up the more you let him pew pew enemy champions and a duration extension for his W if he scores a kill or assist.
Dengeden2 votesMF is just as vulnerable as Kog, come late. Both will have some sort of defensive item and that will make MF's MS obsolete.
Your ideas for buffs are ... terrible. Kog already does enough damage (in theory). If he kills a champion while W is active the fight is already won in most cases.
Rebonack2 votesMF is just as vulnerable as Kog, come late. Both will have some sort of defensive item and that will make MF's MS obsolete.
Your ideas for buffs are ... terrible. Kog already does enough damage (in theory). If he kills a champion while W is active the fight is already won in most cases.
Are you sure it would be a buff?
Even if it did 1 true damage per stack?
I'm not particularly concerned about the numbers. That's totally irrelevant. What I am concerned about is that Koggy's Innate is simply bad design.
What's the proper counterplay to Kog?
Dive him and kill him as quickly as you can.
What happens if you dive him?
He explodes and chunks you for 550 damage. That's punishing a player for doing the right thing. That's poor champion design.
A ramping Innate (whether it works as I described or not) would make far more sense on Kog. It means if you neutralize him quickly he doesn't get to take advantage of it. If Kog plays well then he does. Rewarding for Kog if he performs properly, rewarding for his foe if they perform properly. Clean, simple.
I'm not even talking about numerical balance here. I'm talking compelling champion design.
Dengeden2 votesThe counterplay to Kog is preventing him from positioning properly. I've seen a couple of LCS games where Kog was the last man standing in a lost teamfight.
If you've ever played him, you know how tenuous his laning phase is. He has no wave control, so he has to dish out just the right amount of damage without getting caught out. You don't have to kill him to prevent him from doing that. (You rarely have to kill a champion to counter them).
Your idea would destroy what makes Kog so compelling. He's always good but it's up to him to be good enough (and up to you to make him be insufficient).
Hawkefire3 votesI somewhat disagree, MF's movement speed steroid is quite strong at preventing people from engaging on her, and the ability to immediately get it back with the push of a button is also quite potent when she is attempting to escape from someone. That and her slow is much stronger and covers a wider area than Kog's slow, thus making it a bit harder to avoid than Kogs slow.
Pierce The Veal3 votes[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7lNopELY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-13T18:46:24.783+0000)
He can kill whole enemy team in 3-4 seconds (talking about 6-slotted Kogmaw) unless he is killed. Botrk-Runaan-Guinsoo-boots and 2 more items and he will kill even 4k hp tank in seconds with all that % damage
Not nearly as fast as he used to though.
slippykitten6 votesThe problem is that champs like him, when strong, are way too good when coupled with a coordinated team. He is one of the champs that just cannot be tuned to be viable in solo q without being outrageous in teams. Sure, he could be changed, making him more mobile, or giving him some cc so that he can survive solo q, but you would then have to nerf his AS/range/%hp damage and obliterate the identity of kog.
What I'm saying is that, for the sake of diversity, you're gonna kinda have to deal with him being unreliable in solo q.
Rebonack3 votesThe problem is that champs like him, when strong, are way too good when coupled with a coordinated team. He is one of the champs that just cannot be tuned to be viable in solo q without being outrageous in teams. Sure, he could be changed, making him more mobile, or giving him some cc so that he can survive solo q, but you would then have to nerf his AS/range/%hp damage and obliterate the identity of kog.
What I'm saying is that, for the sake of diversity, you're gonna kinda have to deal with him being unreliable in solo q.
And there's the other problem.
How do you make Koggy equally viable as a Protect the ADC champion when compared with MF? Well, you just have to give him way more damage! Problem is, that kind of balancing will almost without question lead to a Kog that is way too strong in organized competitive environments.
There's an easy way to avoid that problem, though.
Riot just needs to stop pushing Kog in a direction that's impossible to balance.
Let MF be the centerpiece ADC of choice.
Make Koggy the Darius of ADCs instead. All it would take is a new ramping Innate that grows in power each time he hits an enemy champion paired with a duration extension on his W when he scores a kill or assist.
DeBigMoist2 voteshe was viable before the gutting
Pierce The Veal5 votesI really do think his ult mana cost shouldn't scale up anymore. It's just not good enough to warrant it now.
Rebonack3 votesI really do think his ult mana cost shouldn't scale up anymore. It's just not good enough to warrant it now.
This wouldn't be a terrible idea. It had the ramping mana cost previously due to how spammy it is. Now it hits about as hard as an auto-attack.
At the very least, it should get something to go along with the ramping mana cost sorta like Kass' Ult.
Pierce The Veal3 votesThis wouldn't be a terrible idea. It had the ramping mana cost previously due to how spammy it is. Now it hits about as hard as an auto-attack.
At the very least, it should get something to go along with the ramping mana cost sorta like Kass' Ult.
Yeah. The ramping should benefit him in some way, or should go away.
Rebonack3 votesYeah. The ramping should benefit him in some way, or should go away.
Kass already has the damage ramping.
What I think would be neat is if the AoE on Koggy's ult got bigger the more he spammed it.
Pierce The Veal2 votesKass already has the damage ramping.
What I think would be neat is if the AoE on Koggy's ult got bigger the more he spammed it.
That would indeed be quite neat :D
Kuroi863 votesThe problem is, what can you give Kog? He's capable of shredding most any champ at lightning speed due to on-hits, magic damage and absolutely demolishing the AS cap. He's the definition of a late game hyper carry. Heck he can melt tanks faster than any other champ when he hits hit late game.
Rebonack5 votesThe problem is, what can you give Kog? He's capable of shredding most any champ at lightning speed due to on-hits, magic damage and absolutely demolishing the AS cap. He's the definition of a late game hyper carry. Heck he can melt tanks faster than any other champ when he hits hit late game.
A new Innate.
But what kind of Innate would you give him? The one he has right now is no joke. 550 AoE true damage is quite a bit. His Innate is strong without really fitting well with the rest of his kit. If we give him a new one, it should be comparable to the old. Damage, sure, but a specific kind of damage. Damage that doesn't scale except with attack speed. And more importantly, damage that doesn't kick in until Koggy has manage to stay alive for a while.
Icathian Surprise: Kog'Maw's basic attacks and abilities apply stacks of Icathian Surprise to his target. Upon reaching ten stacks (or the target's death) the stacks detonate, dealing (amount) AoE True Damage per stack. If the stacks detonated on an enemy champion, Kog'Maw is also healed for (amount) per stack and gains a stack of Feeding Frenzy for (duration). For each stack of Feeding Frenzy, Kog'Maw applies an additional stack of Icathian Surprise per spell or basic attack.
So until Koggy hits some poor loser ten times (or kills them) this Innate would do absolutely nothing. This rewards Koggy for staying alive. It also rewards the enemy team for playing smart and preventing Kog from being able to stack up on someone. Which is important, because each time Kog scores a detonation his threat level increases.
venomous frost2 votes fits your description of no mobility, defensiv abilities, stealth or hard cc, proving your entire post wrong
kappa 1 2 3
Rebonack14 votes[{quoted}](name=venomous frost,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7lNopELY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-13T19:21:00.330+0000)
kappa 1 2 3
Pretty sure a giant movespeed steroid counts as mobility.
KaisadiIIa2 votesAlso she has the best hard cc of the game: death. You can't do anything to her when you are death.
Knoyle2 votesStrut boosts her speed, Rain slows enemies. She might as well be 
's less evil sister with that escaping ability.
Melledoneus2 votesNothing compares to Satan himself. Nothing.
Anidan3 votesI won't even lie, Gnar is way more goddamn annoying than Teemo could ever be.
Man, yordles are annoying to play against. I love them, but damn.
Melledoneus2 votesThe only problem I have is with champions who have power where they shouldn't have it.
Irelia doesn't need that much tenacity with so much mobility, and vice versa.
Fiora doesn't need to insta-gib tanks.
Juggernauts don't need to be tankier than tanks while dealing their damage tenfold.
ADCs don't need to be able to counter an entire tank's build with one item.
Ekko doesn't need that much damage on a kit with so much utility.
Leblanc doesn't need to deal half a champions health at level 2 in less than a second when she already scales well.
Lee Sin doesn't need absurd damage on an ultimate that has three forms of CC in one.
Tahm Kench doesn't need to be a tanky assassin.
Frost Queen's doesn't need to be a mobile Nasus W.
Tristana doesn't need to be able to destroy turrets in seconds in one AD item.
In general, some champions have power that's either completely unnecessary or completely absurd. But Riot thinks it's balanced for Fiora to deal 2000 true damage in one auto attack, so there's no arguing with them over it.
Anidan3 votesY'know.. if Fiora is dealing 2000 true damage in one auto attack, she's going full glass cannon against a full-blown tank. That means she's incredibly squishy, and her main value is in her ability to assassinate. That means teamfights will be the bane of her existence with all the CC flying out. Also, ADCs aren't countering a tank's entire build with one item or tanks wouldn't largely be dominating the meta right now.. Last Whisper was hit with a pretty enormous nerf, y'know.
Also, a lot of those complaints sound less like power where they shouldn't have it, and more like power that is explicitly given to them for them to use. They're just using what Riot told them to use, not even exploits or anything like that.
Irelia is a weird case and everyone knows it, I won't comment on that one.
Fiora was meant to be able to duel literally anyone, and preferably make it quick. That's how they accomplished it - she fights everyone equally. If she insta-gibs your tank, then your tank already did his job by very likely soaking her ult, and most likely CC'd her at least once. If you couldn't follow up on shattering the glass cannon Fiora, that's on you...
Juggernauts are durable, but they are not more durable than tanks. You are not competing with scaling health shields, armor/MR steroids, etc. when you have none of those. They do more damage, because they were designed to, but they are not at the tanky level that a real tank is. Darius will never be as tanky as Sion, Malphite, Rammus, etc., nor will Skarner, or Morde, or Illaoi. Garen might, but that's only while his damage reduction is up.
ADCs I already covered.
Ekko's main damage is in his passive and the second hit of his Q, both of which can be avoided throughout various methods in the game.
LeBlanc scales hard and ends the game fast, or falls off because her highest burst combo is relegated to a single target with one spell doing AoE damage at a time when the game demands teamfight strength.
Lee Sin is a case I won't touch, because I honestly tend not to care as much as other people. He could use some tuning down but he really doesn't need as much as people say he does.
Tahm Kench is not a tanky assassin. He's stupid tanky for the damage he does, but damage in his fashion does not an assassin make. His primary problem comes with his W being a lose/lose for any enemy he's near. Either he eats his teammate that's in trouble and your only option for attack is this super-tanky champion with 2 effective health bars or he eats you because his teammates aren't in danger and you lose significant amount of health. The main problem with Kench is that you can't be in a favorable position against him unless he's alone.
Frost Queen's is funny.
Tristana was stated to be a tower-destroying ADC, the premier siege marksman - the whole reason she can bomb the tower is to enforce that.
There are a lot of champions with power they don't need (why does Lee Sin have true sight on his E? Things of that nature), but the examples present aren't as superfluous as actual cases. LeBlanc has scary scaling numbers, but it's less intimidating when you look up from the theorycrafting math and see the practical application of that math. Juggernauts are durable, but they kinda have to be when they have to be in the middle of the enemy team, with often very little way to force themselves there beyond 'run at them where they can see you,' and live long enough to do damage.
Tahm Kench is... Tahm Kench is stupid.
Just remember, you don't have to agree with me or anything, this is just the way I see these things.