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Feedback on the new jungle items (and new smites)

masterdragon481··3 votes·1,120 views

So after watching and playing a few games with the new jungle items, I have a few comments.

The first is that the poacher's smite (the one that "promotes" counter jungleing and the stalker's smite (the smite on enemy champion that slows them) are pretty much inferior in all ways, there is just no reason to pick them over the other two smites, in any situation.

The trailblazer one is incredibly strong due to its ability to provide sustain to champions without innate sustain, thus opening the jungle up to a lot of other junglers. In addition, the reduced cooldown means more clears and therefore more gold.

The challenging smite is great for dueling and for champions that don't need the sustain (champs like WW and Aatrox come to mind).

The only problem I see here is there are more disadvantages, overall, to picking challenging smite over trailblazer. Because choosing to smite a champion means that you cannot smite a jungle camp, trailblazer champions have a significant advantage over those taking challenging smite. And of course it is the player's choice to take challenging smite, and it is again the player's choice to use it on a champion rather than a camp. My real problem with this is the reduced cooldown on the trailblazer smite means not only is the trailblazer champ only able to get buffs from camp (and will get more as a result) but they will ALSO have more opportunities to get more buffs because of the lower cooldown on the smite, and this is where I think it becomes unfair.

To sorta summarize the above paragraph, it feels bad to smite a camp with challenging smite rather than saving it for a gank, when ward clearing, for example, would be an excellent choice as well. And while I recognize the merits in choosing the damage over the utility (and I think the trade off established is good), I don't think it is necessarily fair for the champion opting for all utility to benefit that much more by having the ability to get more of the buffs. Essentially with challenging smite I feel like I waste my smite more often. I would love to discuss this with others.

Continuing, I think the tier 2 items are all very good, however, I don't really see the AP one getting picked a lot (maybe on Diana, will have to try it out) because it doesn't really come with any regen. I would like to see mana regen become part of the recipe and part of the item to give ap junglers a bit more of a chance.

I also think that, at first glance, devourer seems a little bit too strong. But then I am reminded that it is basically a feral flare that has 14 stacks already on it. Although it seems like it gains stacks very fast. Still, the damage is only applied on auto attacks, so I feel that overall the item is in a good place, with the one exception of WW. I just hope that WW is changed instead of the item, as WW is the biggest offender as far as I can see.

Sorry for the long post, but I welcome any opinions and discussion, for those that brave to read the whole thing.

Here is a potato for your trouble. that didn't work like I thought it would. Its the thought that counts, right?

Edit" oh, it did work! just couldn't see it

9 Comments

SmokingPuffin3 votes

Relative smite balance feels pretty bad.

Stalker's (slow a champion) is almost strictly worse than Skirmisher's (-20% damage taken, true damage on hit, champion is revealed for 6 seconds), even for the ganking role it's intended for.

Similarly, Ranger's (AoE stun and damage, decreased cooldown, heal % missing mana and health) seems way better than Poacher's (more decreased cooldown if used in enemy jungle, short movement speed buff on kill enemy jungle monster) because it is more flexible. I think Poacher's as it stands on live is only good for Nunu.

Enchantment balance mostly feels good, except the Devourer enchant, which is more terrifying than item 3160 ever was.

masterdragon4812 votes

How do you feel about the difference between trailblazer and skimishers creating unfair tradeoffs given the buffs for smiting jungle camps?

I think the trailblazer needs to not have its cd reduced, at the very least.

I don't think devourer is scarying that FF EVER was, it doesn't have stacking health regen =p But while it does seem very strong, it scales off attack speed, which is by far the easiest countered stat in the game. I think for the champions that are trying to carry from the jungle it is almost essential. How would you want to nerf it?

SmokingPuffin1 votes

How do you feel about the difference between trailblazer and skimishers creating unfair tradeoffs given the buffs for smiting jungle camps?

I think the trailblazer needs to not have its cd reduced, at the very least.

I haven't tested enough to get a read for how Trailblazer's and Skirmisher's balance with respect to each other. They serve very different roles, so it'll take some more reps to get an understanding.

Right now, everything for me is colored by the power of Devourer enchant. I think you have to be playing an AS jungler in the current jungle; everything else is a mistake.

I don't think devourer is scarying that FF EVER was, it doesn't have stacking health regen =p But while it does seem very strong, it scales off attack speed, which is by far the easiest countered stat in the game. I think for the champions that are trying to carry from the jungle it is almost essential. How would you want to nerf it?

The big thing that makes Devourer scarier than FF to me is how easily you can get it running. With FF, you had to farm a bunch of camps. Devourer just takes 1500 gold over your jungle item to give you 40 on hit damage; that's less than a BF sword, and it scales with more farming, and it gives 50% AS. Compare it to buying a BF Sword as your first post-sabre purchase and you can see how insane that is.

Anyway, on to nerfing. The first thing I would try is nerfing its interaction with Skirmisher's. Stacking the magic damage on hit from both effects makes the item insanely cost efficient. Perhaps something like a limit of how many autos the Skirmisher's smite can affect, like 3 or 4 attacks.

If that doesn't get the job done. The next thing I would do is reduce the base on-hit damage, say to 25 on hit, and reduce the number of stacks you get on assist from 2 to 1.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

WW is supposed to receive a rework, it was announced in April, but lo and behold8 months later it has not appeared. I suppose they feel he would be too effective for his low IP cost. Can't endanger Lee Sin's reputation as top jungler!

masterdragon4812 votes

WW is supposed to receive a rework, it was announced in April, but lo and behold8 months later it has not appeared. I suppose they feel he would be too effective for his low IP cost. Can't endanger Lee Sin's reputation as top jungler!

It is suppose to be common knowledge that IP/RP cost is only a relative function of how old the champion is, and is not reflective of champion powerlevels at all.

I guess the WW changes aren't as high a priority as other things are (like getting all these changes done, for one example). Which makes sense, WW is a bit on the strong side, but not oppressively like they need to take care of it now.

I only brought up WW because he applies the devourer 5 times with very little counterplay. Devourer is strong in its own right at the moment, but it may be balanced given the jungle changes, since getting LOTS of auto attacks off is what the opponent should be avoiding anyway. In other words, by its-self it maybe be balanced, but in kits where the auto attacks are completely unavoidable (i know auto attacks can't be dodged, this isn't what I mean), perhaps devourer is too strong. But if it is only specific kits, perhaps those kits needs to change, and not the item that is, in general, balanced.

I haven't played lee sin in the new jungle yet, nor have I seen a lot of him. They did his his survivability, and with the jungle becoming more dangerous and the spirit stone spell vamp/lifesteal leaving the jungle, he might not be as dominating as he previously was. Err....baring counterjungleing. But you get my point.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

It is suppose to be common knowledge that IP/RP cost is only a relative function of how old the champion is, and is not reflective of champion powerlevels at all.

It is supposed to be that way, but everytime Garen's viability was brought up in the past, it was often stated that due to his simplicity and age they didn't really wish to bother. Its very indirect of a statement

I guess the WW changes aren't as high a priority as other things are (like getting all these changes done, for one example). Which makes sense, WW is a bit on the strong side, but not oppressively like they need to take care of it now.

I only brought up WW because he applies the devourer 5 times with very little counterplay. Devourer is strong in its own right at the moment, but it may be balanced given the jungle changes, since getting LOTS of auto attacks off is what the opponent should be avoiding anyway. In other words, by its-self it maybe be balanced, but in kits where the auto attacks are completely unavoidable (i know auto attacks can't be dodged, this isn't what I mean), perhaps devourer is too strong. But if it is only specific kits, perhaps those kits needs to change, and not the item that is, in general, balanced.

I haven't played lee sin in the new jungle yet, nor have I seen a lot of him. They did his his survivability, and with the jungle becoming more dangerous and the spirit stone spell vamp/lifesteal leaving the jungle, he might not be as dominating as he previously was. Err....baring counterjungleing. But you get my point.

Nawww lee sin is still very good, though he is significantly delayed i his early ganks he is still one of the best gankers out there.

FantasySniper1 votes

I think that every jungle item needs to decrease the CD of smite.

Would remedy a lot of the hesitation among the champion smites that comes from its super long CD.

Lord O Whales1 votes

I think we should all do this xD http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1pEBkZxE-all-smite

Rebonack1 votes

Give Redsmite and Bluesmite some cooldown reduction if you score a kill or assist on the champion you tag with it. Give Poacher's some (largish) amount of bonus Smite damage to cement it as the objective-grabbing item.

If Devourer is too strong on folks that aren't Wolfy, just give the thing a hard-cap of 30-40 stacks to prevent it from getting too silly in longer games. If the problem is just Wolfy, the guy can get Eve'd until his rework is done.

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