I can't be the only person thinking this obvious truth, right?

Prince Purge··59 votes·16,486 views

Crowd Control should not be the only counterplay to a champion, and if that's the only counterplay there is to that specific champion, then that's not okay, nor is that balanced. That simple. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfhDn6x-h9c ^ 5:41 ^ I am not trying to say that everybody that plays Master Yi is as good as Cowsep, I am just making a point. Anyways, there is a clip of Cowsep 1v5 getting a pentakill. Yes, he is fed. Yes, Cowsep is (obviously) experienced with Master Yi. But he really doesn't really outplay anybody in this clip. He does what any player with a brain would do. He auto attacks whatever champion was near him, and presses E and Q when they were up. That's literally all he did besides flash once to be in range. Not only that, but his Q makes him untargetable. You could argue that he does anticipate any CC they are gonna throw at him, but when he auto attacks so quickly that his Q resets every few seconds, it becomes very difficult to land any CC at all. Especially when, unlike Master Yi, most CC is in some way, shape or form, a skillshot that you can't just point and click land it on them. I don't normally just sit and complain about champions like that, but I hate when people say "Just CC him." That isn't counterplay. That shouldn't be the only way you can kill someone, fed or not. Unless you're Galio or Maokai, your CC can and will be avoided. Master yi running you down and using a point and click ability to either dodge damage, cc, close a gap, or do all three, for the most part, is unavoidable. Especially considering the type of champion he is. What does Master Yi and Yasuo have in common? You can make them 0/8 in 15 minutes for all they care. But soon enough, they're going to get their core items. Soon, Master Yi will get rageblade and bloodrazor. Soon, Yasuo will have 100% crit. Then they can outduel anybody in the game. Then you need a joint effort of everybody in your team to take them down, even though they were feeding their ass off most of the game. Yi isn't the only champion who's only counterplay when they hit their level/item spike is to "just CC them" (He's just the most obvious culprit) Fizz Jax Katarina MasterYi Riven Yasuo Zed.

Crowd Control should not be the only counterplay to a champion, and if that's the only counterplay there is to that specific champion, then that's not okay, nor is that balanced.

74 Comments

usul120221 votes

Not all counterplay is "in the moment". Some of it is earlier (did you shit on the yi when he was weak early?) other is situational (cowsep chose his fight, he'd already already put stacks on his rageblade and started off the fight, so he got his choice of target priority). Had the enemy team either A shut him down early or B picked the fight better (blitz hook to start it, for example), then they would have had a much better time.

The second part (picking your fight intelligently) is really undervalued against rageblade champs.

Josh Sand9 votes

When you say that stunning a champion is the primary means to counter them, you are basically saying that the main way to defeat said champion is when the champion's user is no longer allowed to issue any commands... so basically AFK? That's the vulnerability window of this champ?

So i guess if you didn't draft any point and click stuns, then you're next best bet is for the pizza guy to knock on their door right before you start a fight against them.

DuskDaUmbreon8 votes

CC is rarely ever the "only" counterplay to them - it's just the easiest and often incredibly effective.

CC is more valuable against squishy melees than against other champions. Ranged champions that are squishy are (in theory) being kept safe by their frontline, making it risky to go in on them anyways, and tanks and juggernauts have tenacity and general beefiness to get past your CC. However, if Kat is stunned and in the middle of your team? She's pretty dead, unless her team is wiping the floor with you.

They're also highly squishy, with the exceptions of Jax and Riven (who end up not quite squishy, but far from tanky). Generally, you can just burst them down as long as you play around their primary defensive tool - Bait out Yasuo's W, aim for Kat's daggers, aim for wherever Zed's going to pop up, hold CC while Fizz has his E, etc.. I tend to find that juggernauts generally kick their asses pretty hard, so you can also counterpick them in a general way (although this is NOT always the case - Kled might kill Yasuo through sheer superior damage, but he loses almost every fight to Jax as soon as Jax has Sheen and E), and Yi can shred Nasus pretty easily if equal/ahead as long as he has ult).

And, as usul said, there's more than "in the moment" CC. Yi will lose almost all fights early on, so just go kill him and keep him down - which means you do have to end before he scales up.

Prince Purge5 votes

Open to any and all counter arguments, granted if they actually make any sense. INB4 "you complained about Yi so you must be a low elo player!"

schübert5 votes

agreed this game is a gimmick fest meant for mass appeal so they can get as many players and make as much money as possible it is a joke master yi is a joke zero skill

Sucction1 votes

{quoted}

agreed this game is a gimmick fest meant for mass appeal so they can get as many players and make as much money as possible it is a joke master yi is a joke zero skill

You're literally level 12. Stop thinking you know anything about the game at all.

schübert1 votes

this is not my only account

Nicolasbo1433 votes

I mean... yi is also hella squishy, that's another counter besides CC. You can just one shot him with an assassin.

Nicolasbo1432 votes

{quoted}

I mean... yi is also hella squishy, that's another counter besides CC. You can just one shot him with an assassin.

Hes a melee fighter that needs to get up in your face.

Prince Purge4 votes

item 3812

Kadexe1 votes

He doesn't have DD until more than 20 minutes into the game.

Wimbledofy1 votes

Yi for one is melee, which means by default he is less squishy than half the champs in the game(other than his armor which is a bit less than average.) He also has his W which gives him a very high amount of damage reduction, and like other people said he builds deaths dance. No assassin is going to 1 shot master yi unless they are already fed.

Nicolasbo1431 votes

{quoted}

Yi for one is melee, which means by default he is less squishy than half the champs in the game(other than his armor which is a bit less than average.) He also has his W which gives him a very high amount of damage reduction, and like other people said he builds deaths dance. No assassin is going to 1 shot master yi unless they are already fed.

His w is stationary, deaths dance as said before gives no real tank stats, only sustain. Also, master yi doesnt build hp or resist, so even a moderately strong assassin or adc with peel can take him down. I think you have a problem with his solo fighting, because hes strong in that aspect, but his team fighting is garbage.

Wimbledofy1 votes

W being stationary doesn't matter for 90% of the assassins since they have no cc and can't cancel it. Deaths dance delays 30% of all damage, which means he can sustain that damage back, which is effectively making him tanky. I never complained about his solo fighting, I'm countering your point that he is squishy, which is pretty false. By nature of his champion, he is not squishy. Something like an adc is squishy, because they have low base stats, low health and have nearly no defensive abilities. Yi is melee like I said which means he gets better magic resist and he has good health. He has a very strong defensive ability which also heals him, and has an ability that makes him untargetable. In an average game he is not going to get 1 shot by an assassin.

Silly Neeko2 votes

The problem is.... unless they are a skill shot only champion who hardly ever uses autos (so pretty much no one) you will always have to CC them or else you have to shut them down. Some kits have a better time bouncing back.... but generally if you can shut someone down, you have to keep them down. The closer they get to you in gold the more dangerous they get.

Honestly the thing is that people undervalue how much CC is worth in terms of kit, and over use the term. Most dont explain HOW or WHEN to use CC.... they just say use it. Most people use it. It does not help unless you use it wisely however.

BigFBear2 votes

In my opinion no champion in the game should be able to win an 1v2+ after feeding their ass off. You are totally right. Everytime I have a Yi in my game, at SOME point he kills everything even when he was 0:8 before. That's complete bullshit. A player who fucked up THAT hard should be useless rest of the game like every other champion would be in that situation.

Prince Purge1 votes

Well I do think that comebacks should be possible but that's based on skill. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

{quoted}

In my opinion no champion in the game should be able to win an 1v2+ after feeding their ass off. You are totally right. Everytime I have a Yi in my game, at SOME point he kills everything even when he was 0:8 before. That's complete bullshit. A player who fucked up THAT hard should be useless rest of the game like every other champion would be in that situation.

0/8 but did you see items? Score doesn't matter at all, it's merely an indicator of the items a player might have in relation to another. If you took 50 minutes to end a game, a 0/8 Yi is still going to get full build, not forgetting to mention how easy it is to ks shutdowns with Yi.

That's just how scaling works. If you didn't end the game quick enough, scaling champs will scale, although much slower than they should. You pick an early game champ and bully, you have to accept you will lose if you don't win before they scale. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Spicy Rice1 votes

If you don't have comeback mechanics, then we might as well just end the game off the first kill.

No, but seriously, some champs are geared towards the early game, some are better midgame, and some are great late game. Getting mad that a late game champ was able to do things when they got items is kinda weird...

Now, if someone like pantheon was stomped, and able to be very useful lategame, that would probably be a problem.

Ameliea2 votes

The community has developed this mentality of: "If i am not able to outplay my opponent in every situation then there is no counterplay" Champions have moments of power and moments of weakness. Sometimes if you fight a champion in the worst situatuion when they are at their strongest, you simply cant win no matter what. Also you have to see that even in the cowsep clip this only worked because this was absolutly flawlessly played mechanicly. Missing One Auto there means hes dead. There are not many people who couldve pulled this off

Morbys1 votes

Its like you didn't even comprehend what he just wrote. When a champion can go 0/8 in the first 15min, and still come back to carry a game just because their kit is so overloaded and overpowered, there is an issue with balance. And any competent individual can see that there is currently way too much dmg in the game at the moment. It isn't fun to carry a game, only to lose later on b/c of these "comeback" mechanics, that isn't skill, thats attrition based on how broken your champ is late game. Nasus and Kayle come to mind.

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

{quoted}

Its like you didn't even comprehend what he just wrote. When a champion can go 0/8 in the first 15min, and still come back to carry a game just because their kit is so overloaded and overpowered, there is an issue with balance. And any competent individual can see that there is currently way too much dmg in the game at the moment. It isn't fun to carry a game, only to lose later on b/c of these "comeback" mechanics, that isn't skill, thats attrition based on how broken your champ is late game. Nasus and Kayle come to mind.

That's just the r%%%%%ed bounty system. It's super easy to throw a lead when all it takes is a careless death that gives free 1000g to a scaling carry.

Nyarlathοtep

{quoted}

The community has developed this mentality of: "If i am not able to outplay my opponent in every situation then there is no counterplay" Champions have moments of power and moments of weakness. Sometimes if you fight a champion in the worst situatuion when they are at their strongest, you simply cant win no matter what. Also you have to see that even in the cowsep clip this only worked because this was absolutly flawlessly played mechanicly. Missing One Auto there means hes dead. There are not many people who couldve pulled this off

HA sure bud.

3TWarrior2 votes

you can at least build magic resist against fizz and kat, armor can do well against riven

I'll exclude yasuo since his kit's main problem is windwall and his passive shield but without one or the other he'd be fine

everyone else though is getting broken by the latest "additions" to the game, such as Runes Reforged making Jax and Master Yi have no viable defensive builds against them (Why did you not list VAYNE HERE Vayne , her kit is quite literally at present: blow her up before she gets to attack you at all or you will die)

then champs like zed come around who can kill you regardless of build...

Kadexe1 votes

Master Yi would be pretty useless if you could simply build armor to stop his damage. Basic attacks are everything for Master Yi, and he needs to cut through enemies quickly or else he just dies.

3TWarrior1 votes

yes, because that is how he was designed...when he was made, 2 front line champions was the norm and almost everyone had point and click crowd control

now point and click is rather rare, there are few or no front-line champions and his base damages get doubled by rage blade?

he's not supposed to be viable against people who know what they're doing, but Riot is supercharging everything...

Kilanost1 votes

If you want to learn counterplay, hop on normal games and spam the champion you are having trouble with. I assure you the weaknesses will present themselves. From there it's on you to make sure you exploit them when you find yourself against those champions in the future.

Counterplay to yi is for the laners to constantly be invading the enemy jungle with their jungler. If you get master yi behind, he's useless for the rest of the game unless it manages to go 40 minutes in which case you played into the late game to win condition.

Biggest issue I currently have is that you can get champions behind but If they get lucky and last hit someone with a big bounty, they can leapfrog their relative power from last to the head of the pack. Bounty gold should be split across the team.

Spicy Rice1 votes

Yep, pretty much this, and even then, the bounty value should be toned down.

No one other than draven should be getting over 450 gold for a single kill

14daysuspensionk1 votes

Please don't tell me that I saw that Yi Q go from a 13 Goddamn second cooldown to literally no cooldown from just a few autos, what part of his kit/build/runes whatever is allowing that??

Spicy Rice2 votes

Autos + kills resetting his cd's

14daysuspensionk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7X9rniAH,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2019-04-08T13:22:04.052+0000)

Autos + kills resetting his cd's

I know those autos are resetting his cds, but I wanna know what is letting them do that, passive? Rune? Build? Just saying that his autos are the reason behind it doesn't answer my question, it doesn't explain why it is happening.

Spicy Rice2 votes

theres a few things allowing him to do it.

  1. His passive, which basically gives him an extra auto per 4(3 once he uses it once), + rageblade also giving him extra on hit effects.

  2. His q passive, which reduces its cd by 1 sec for every auto (including his passive and rageblade on hits)

  3. His ult passive, which reduces his non ult cd's by 70% every time he gets a kill.

14daysuspensionk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7X9rniAH,comment-id=0015000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-08T13:55:20.714+0000)

theres a few things allowing him to do it.

  1. His passive, which basically gives him an extra auto per 4(3 once he uses it once), + rageblade also giving him extra on hit effects.

  2. His q passive, which reduces its cd by 1 sec for every auto (including his passive and rageblade on hits)

  3. His ult passive, which reduces his non ult cd's by 70% every time he gets a kill.

Much better, ty.

Kadexe2 votes

Resets and Phantom Hit.

ZaneShadow1 votes

Well, these champions are great answers Since the cc is nearly undodgable on them. Malzahar Kennen Fiddlesticks Leona Rammus Renekton Skarner MonkeyKing

I’ve always considered maining one of these for that reason. Master yi is rediculous and Id be wise to add one of these to my champion pool.

Annie also works but if the master Yi predicts the instantaneous flaming bear of death he could technically dodge it.

A few other point and click cc exist but if they go untargetable the cc fails on them.

Nyarlathοtep

{quoted}

Well, these champions are great answers Since the cc is nearly undodgable on them. Malzahar Kennen Fiddlesticks Leona Rammus Renekton Skarner MonkeyKing

I’ve always considered maining one of these for that reason. Master yi is rediculous and Id be wise to add one of these to my champion pool.

Annie also works but if the master Yi predicts the instantaneous flaming bear of death he could technically dodge it.

A few other point and click cc exist but if they go untargetable the cc fails on them.

And what if yi is last pick? Then what? Am i supposed to just accept defeat because skillshots fail because he is running at the damn speed of sound?

Spicy Rice2 votes

You know he is gonna q to gapclose. Time it to stun him right out of alpha...

Nyarlathοtep

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7X9rniAH,comment-id=001700000000,timestamp=2019-04-08T13:21:23.181+0000)

You know he is gonna q to gapclose. Time it to stun him right out of alpha...

And who exactly told you that everyone is capable of bursting him before the cc ends? Besides there arent a lot of cc with high duration anymore. And those that have high duration have either a heavy limitation or condition (skarner's e, malz's and ww's r, viktor's w and some others). Sure there are some that are extremely good and have a decent duration ( like ashe's r, nautilus r), but again i can pick them only if i know that the enemy has yi.

Spicy Rice1 votes

Counterplay doesn't mean everyone should be strong at all things. That's why you have a team.

You don't 1v1 the yi after stunning him, your team blows him up after he is stunned.

And honestly, if your team has 0 cc, you deserve to lose

Bârd1 votes

If you have a draft with no CC, that's a bad draft.

You shouldn't need to know there's an enemy Yi for that to happen.

Also, no. It doesn't need to be targeted. That's the easiest way to do it, but it's by no means a requirement. It's difficult to land skillshots on him once he's on top of you, but if your stun has a longer range than Alpha Strike (most of them do) and comes out quickly, you can land it on him as he approaches you.

Otherwise, hit him with a stun as he comes out of alpha.

Nyarlathοtep

If you have a draft with no CC, that's a bad draft.

Are people on purpose FORGET that we arent on control of our teammate's actions? I CANT FORCE THEM TO PICK CHAMPS WITH CC.

you can land it on him as he approaches you.

When he is running at mach 3 then im pretty sure that even a monkey can evade a skillshot.

Otherwise, hit him with a stun as he comes out of alpha.

And then what? Hope my team focuses him hard? Because even if they do it, yi has his own team. With our (my team's) abilities on cd, his team will most likely win.

Bârd1 votes
  1. You don't have to tell your allies to do it. CC is so damn common that I don't know how you draft a comp without it. If you see your team drafting a comp with no CC... pick somebody with CC or you're probably going to lose. This is just as bad as running a full AD teamcomp when Malphite is open.
  2. If he's moving that fast he won't have time to react. The only way he'd dodge your Dark Binding/Charm/Tanglebarbs is by anticipating you throwing it. Ground Targeted stuns are harder, but line stuns are hella easy.
  3. You don't need to throw all five ults on him. If he's stunned for more than two seconds in a teamfight, he's dead.
Nyarlathοtep

You don't have to tell your allies to do it. CC is so damn common that I don't know how you draft a comp without it

facepalm Only hard cc is effective vs yi. However when your team consists of something like olaf top, khazix jungle, xerath mid (me), mf adc and pyke support you run to some obvious problems. Both xerath's and pyke's hard cc is easily avoidable by someone like yi.

pick somebody with CC or you're probably going to lose.

If by that you mean someone that is packing heavy cc then you are solely mistaken. I cant pick an unfamiliar champ and expect to bode well (in ranked ofc).

If he's moving that fast he won't have time to react

???? You mean point blank range or long range? Because there is no way he cant avoid a dark binding from a long range.

You don't need to throw all five ults on him. If he's stunned for more than two seconds in a teamfight, he's dead.

Do you know many hard cc with more than 2 secs duration? Besides in soloq (and normal) environmnent, where there is no coordination people will spam their cc on yi ending up overlapping cc and ending up going to waste. And then his team comes to clean up.

Bârd1 votes
  1. That's a pretty bad teamcomp that can only win if it steamrolls, since your frontline will only last more than a couple seconds if the enemy instantly dies, and your backline needs a good frontline since it has no mobility. That said, it's very much possible to deal with Yi here. Pyke needs to hang back to peel with his E.
  2. Yeah no. You only need one or two good stuns. Even just a Rek'sai or Trundle is enough.
  3. The closer he is the harder it is for him to dodge. The ideal spot would be just outside Alpha Strike range.
  4. So we should balance around people playing like shit? It's really damn easy to chain CC together. If you're stacking stuns that's your problem to deal with, not Riot's problem to balance around.
ZaneShadow1 votes

{quoted}

And what if yi is last pick? Then what? Am i supposed to just accept defeat because skillshots fail because he is running at the damn speed of sound?

Yes? If I pick Chogath but then the enemy picks Illaoi, well, guess I don’t get to play the game. If I pick Annie and then get matched into Ziggs, welp, it’ll be fun getting hit from 2 1/2 times my range away. If I pick 90% of the champion roster and the enemy is half decent at Sorraka, Guess I don’t get to make plays.

There are so many champions that straight up remove your ability to play the game if you pick wrong. It’s just a fact of such a large champion roster. That’s why some champs are Meta: they can be picked into ANYTHING and not get destroyed. If you want to main a nonmeta champ, your asking for your Master Yi, your Illaoi, your Ziggs, your sorraka to come out of the woodwork.

I say this as a Taric main. It sucks when master Yi shows up and demolished my team. He can Alpha my stun in his sleep. But if I wanted to never see him again, I should main one of the champions I listed, who basically removes a master Yi’s ability to have fun.

Also, forgot to add Lissandra to that list.

Acekill3r1 votes

Aaand why is zed in that list?

Somebody Love Me1 votes

In Katarina's case, CC has notoriously been her counter, but now with her 6.22 rework, she has more counterplay before.

With the delays they dropped in her kit, it's easier to play around her dagger drops and avoid them, so just cc'ing her isn't the only way to stop her. It's just the easiest.

Kadexe1 votes

I'd like to point out that Xin walked up to him with low health and gave a free reset, Blitzcrank didn't use his CC, Jayce went melee, and Kai'Sa came in late with very low health. They had basically no burst damage and fought Master Yi in a way that naturally favors him.

Bârd1 votes

Cowsep didn't outplay them there. He didn't need to, they played themselves.

  • If they went on him after he finished Krugs, when Rageblade wore off, he would have died.
  • If Blitz landed any CC whatsoever, he would have died.
  • If Xin Zhao hadn't tried to gank with half HP like a moron, he would have died.
  • If Rumble and Jayce went golden at the same time to make sure his Q didn't give him a reset to kill the other one, he might have died.
  • If Kai'sa wasn't at a quarter HP, she could have cast her ult and (depending on her own items), could have killed him.

But no, instead they just ran in and died for no goddamn reason.

There's a lot of dumb shit going on right now, but "CC isn't counterplay" isn't what's going on here.

What's going on here is a bunch of dumbasses hard inting.

Śhunpo1 votes

Please don't clump in Kat with the rest of those champs.

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