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Burst Combos started with a Point and Click Ability Dominate Solo Queue

AmazingGoat··50 votes·4,492 views

The following champions have a large amount of hard to mess up burst damage they can initiate with a simple ranged point and click ability:

Akali (targeted gap closer into burst) Katarina (targeted gap closer into burst with resets) Fizz (targeted gap closer into AA buff and two AoEs) Annie (targeted ranged stun with huge burst follow up) Talon (targeted gap closer into AA buff and two AoEs) Fiora (targeted gap closer that can be used twice plus point and click multiple target ultimate) Pantheon (targeted gap closer CC into spear thrust burst)

You won't believe this, but all of these champions have really high win rates. And no, I'm not talking about in Bronze/Silver. In plat+ these champions have the following win rates:

Akali - %55.15 Win Rate Katarina - %53.87 Win Rate Fizz - %51.9 Win Rate Annie - %56.22 Win Rate Talon - %52.81 Win Rate Fiora - %53.45 Win Rate Pantheon - %52.49 Win Rate

There is one notable omission from this list: Zed. Zed has a targeted gap closer and huge burst, but his targeted gap closer is on his ultimate so has a long cooldown, which limits his ability to repeatedly burst people down the way some of these other champions can. His win rate is "only" %49.62.

The kits with the easiest to execute huge burst combos (Annie/Akali/Kat) shine the most. These kits are toxic. Everyone knows it, which is why their ban rates in solo queue are through the roof (again, these are numbers from plat+):

Akali - 30% Ban Rate Katarina - 53% Ban Rate Fizz - 41% Ban Rate Zed - 72% Ban Rate

I know that win rates aren't always the best measure, but when such a specific archetype of champion is targeted for so many bans over and over again, and then has universally great win rates when they do make it through, well, it seems to be that something is off.

These champions are too strong right now. It is too easy for them to apply pressure in lane and across the map. The window for "counter play" to these champions is incredibly small, as if you miss a split second opportunity to CC them then you will die. I guess tanks or bruisers should be the counter to high burst champions, but it is much easier for high burst champions to get fed than it is for a bruiser to get fed, and once a high burst champion gets fed they can also burst down bruisers.

I play LoL the way it is. If this is the intention, for these type of champions to dominate the meta to this degree, then that's fine. But I wanted to make a post to articulate the issue in a clear manner. I see a lot of posts on these forums just saying "Fizz OP" or "Akali OP", but I wanted to try to look through the numbers I have access to and see whether there indeed may be some truth to these poorly articulated complaints. At the end of the day, I think there is. The players getting frustrated by these champions may or may not understand the game that well, but that doesn't mean they haven't correctly identified that a certain champion too often seems to dominate their games.

Based on play patterns, win rate, and ban rate for higher ELO solo queue games, as well general opinion in both high ELO and low ELO tiers, it certainly appears that champions with high burst combos they can start with a ranged point and click are dominating solo queue.

89 Comments

acepil0t12 votes

I just find it frustrating that many of those have lots of damage from the point and click gap closer. That's the epitome of no counterplay, and akali is the biggest offender, with the fish in close second. at least Zed and Talon dont deal damage right off the bat, and Pantheon's is not much unless you build AP (which is not practical). I just think they need to reduce the damage on akali's dash (and put a small CD on it) and make fizz's q not proc on-hit effects.

AbodyHUN6664 votes

Also they need to fix fizz dash. Right now it deals damage even if you cancel it.

Dengeden1 votes

Janna u wot?

Knight SoIaire 3 votes

u wot when zed or fizz dash through it

but yeah janna is the monster disengage

Dengeden1 votes

Oh yeah, I forgot that point and click blinks were a thing (oops) Fizz dashing through Janna tornado tho, nope. She's not gonna use Q before he uses Q or starts E. Even if he uses his other gap closer, he prolly won't kill anyone. Same deal for other multi dash assassins.

MrSexyHobo8 votes

wukong has really good burst and its point and click. no respect for the monkey

redbull papi1 votes

Wukong is love, Wukong is life

femmé1 votes

are you dissing the monkey king? no cool bro beans your places is clearly at the bottom

Joe Dredd5 votes

Refers to annie being toxic and that's why her ban rate is high. Doesn't put annie's ban rate. roflcopter

flibitydoo4 votes

To be fair the ones who didn't have their ban rates listed (because they weren't significant enough) don't have strong escapes after their bursts. Pretty much everyone on that ban list has something to get them out of dodge after they burst someone down using targeted abilities.

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

To be fair the ones who didn't have their ban rates listed (because they weren't significant enough) don't have strong escapes after their bursts. Pretty much everyone on that ban list has something to get them out of dodge after they burst someone down using targeted abilities.

Talon and Pantheon have nothing to get out of a situation since they need to use all of their abilities to kill anyone.

iamthegoatofwar5 votes

pantheon's passive is more than enough and talon's stealth can count as his ticket out during a burst.

Joe Dredd7 votes

If you let talon straight walk through your team without using his ult you deserve to die and him to escape.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

talon has a point and click gap closer, he doesn't just walk into your team. a well played talon will be into your team and unleash his full combo ending with his ult and walk away no problem.

Joe Dredd1 votes

I know he has a gap closer. And you know what else he has? Squishiness. Once again. If he walks past your front line and gets to the carries without using his ult( which also can be easily stopped with an oracles lens) you deserve to lose that teamfight.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

you keep saying "if he walks past your front line", but he doesn't need to in order to engage. that's my point.

an oracles or a pink ward is probably the best counter to his escape. i'm not saying he doesn't have counterplay, just that he doesn't have to walk through your front lines to delete your squishes. saying that you deserve to lose because you let him do something that you didn't have a choice in isn't a fair criticism to his power.

Joe Dredd1 votes

Please explain how talon doesn't have to walk past the front line.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

talon's e is a long range gapcloser. now he's in front of your team, now your squishy is dead.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Talon

Cutthroat RANGE: 700 COST: 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 mana COOLDOWN: 18 / 16 / 14 / 12 / 10 Active: Talon blinks behind his target, slowing them for 99% for 0.25 seconds and amplifying his damage against that target for 3 seconds.

Joe Dredd1 votes

And your tanks should be able to CC him and kill him if he is within 700 range on a squishy, unless you group badly.

Space Bum1 votes

Like a lot of assassin's, if he does his job right and can afford to, Talon will wait for someone else to initiate and strafe the back line, jumping in with his gap closer and ult-stealthing out, if the situation calls for it.

Joe Dredd1 votes

And your team should be able to pick up on that, unless, like I said before, you group badly.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

i think this sums it up pretty nicely.

i would add that he doesn't have to come in from the front. he could walk up behind the entire enemy team and use his gap closer from there circumventing the front line entirely.

Junkο1 votes

she doesn't even have 0.5% banrate

Joe Dredd1 votes

I know.

lojician5 votes

Assassins are broken because carries are broken. Damage as a whole is completely over-tuned compared to current garbage tank itemization which is basically universally less gold efficient than buying offense.

Jasiwel3 votes

You forgot Syndra too. I'm SO excited for those nerfs. She's deserved them for a long time now.

Yandere Moe Girl7 votes

{quoted}

You forgot Syndra too. I'm SO excited for those nerfs. She's deserved them for a long time now.

Syndra doesn't match OP's descriptions at all. She has no gap closer, no escape, and her only point and click is her ult. And imo she isn't that easy either.

Jasiwel4 votes

{quoted}

Syndra doesn't match OP's descriptions at all. She has no gap closer, no escape, and her only point and click is her ult. And imo she isn't that easy either.

I disagree that she isn't easy. Maybe in Season 2, but she's ridiculous at the moment and has been for a while now. And I was going from the Point-and-Click burst complaint because that's what she has become.

FLY Slotmachiner3 votes

Uh...most to all players will agree that Syndra is probably one of the most difficult champs to learn. Syndra IMO is one of the most balanced champions as she can possibly only able to kill one whole target in a TF and just setup dem kills for her other carries. She is not a Point-And-Click at all, if you say she is Point-And-Click then might as well as Vi/Cho'Gath/Darius are all Point-And-Click Burst Champions right?

Junkο1 votes

Syndra isn't the hardest to earn, her kit is pretty straightforward. The only thing you would need to learn about her is how her E works. She is still one of the harder champs in the game though.

FLY Slotmachiner1 votes

By all means she is not the hardest to learn, I think right now IMO Azir is the hardest champion to learn.

TheI3igDaddy3 votes

She's a better Veigar, and yes this is coming from a disgruntled Veigar player. She bullies a lot of champs early on while having MUCH easier waveclear. She also has a W that isn't impossible to hit on a competent player. Her Q's also 800 range compared to Veigar's 650 range Q, making her safer to harass with.

Poor Veigar will never see competitive play while Syndra's around.

AerialBlade3 votes

and veigar's ult does 5X the damage, and has a better stun ring..

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

From the wiki, with both at level 16:

Primordial Burst - 500 + 120% AP + 80% of target's AP Unleashed Power minimum - 540 + 60% AP Unleashed Power maximum - 1260 + 140% AP

Against mages Veigar wins, against anything else it's usually Syndra if she can get over 3 spheres to ult with.

Junkο2 votes

Against anything else Veigar wins if he gets 100 AP from Q, no need to prep and be safe till then eitehr

AerialBlade1 votes

you may be right, all im saying is that as an AD champion, I've checked death recap to find his ult doing 2000+ damage which is really quite broken. He walks up to you and deletes you, just like that. I never remember syndra doing that much, maybe if you hang around her for a few seconds, she'll do 1k. They both have their strengths, and veigar will still be strong in his own ridiculous way.

Jubbinaut2 votes

Annie has no gap closer, no escape, and her only point-and-click is on her Q, which outranges half the rest of her burst. So to nail her full combo, you either don't open it with point-and-click, or you burn a significant amount of the stun duration walking up to get in range of W.

So... how does she really fit in?

AmazingGoat3 votes

{quoted}

Annie has no gap closer, no escape, and her only point-and-click is on her Q, which outranges half the rest of her burst. So to nail her full combo, you either don't open it with point-and-click, or you burn a significant amount of the stun duration walking up to get in range of W.

So... how does she really fit in?

She can burst any squishy down without having to worry about missing a skill shot. This means she can get close to highly mobile champions and know that if she has her stun up, she can land all of her damage.

Jubbinaut2 votes

In verifying my point, I note that (according to the wikia page), the range on her Q and W is the same. Once I have a chance, I want to check that, as I recall the targeting cone for W being significantly shorter than the range indicator for Q.

Until I can validate, I'll just retract my statement.

Though I don't think she's half as bad as the original post indicates.

TheKingDodo3 votes

Non-Ultimate Point and click gap closers you say? Alistar 44.69% LeeSin 45.83% Yasuo 45.9% Jayce 47.01% Rengar 47.39% Jax 48.07% MasterYi 49.53% Poppy 49.76% XinZhao 50.39% Quinn 50.4% MonkeyKing 52.44% Win rates really seem to average out huh? Nothing unusual... H8 the damage not the gap closer... Although all of the above can do massive bursts... (yes, even alistar) Also an interesting observation for all of these champions above 50% win rate (except for annie) is that they all have some form of protection (fizz, and fiora's untargetable, akali, talon's stealth, panth's block, kat's resets, etc. Another interesting observation for all except annie (again) is that they're all assassins... I think OP just want assassins to be nerfed in general which I agree, and to add to that, all types of damage should be nerfed too.

AmazingGoat2 votes

{quoted}

Non-Ultimate Point and click gap closers you say? Alistar 44.69% LeeSin 45.83% Yasuo 45.9% Jayce 47.01% Rengar 47.39% Jax 48.07% MasterYi 49.53% Poppy 49.76% XinZhao 50.39% Quinn 50.4% MonkeyKing 52.44% Win rates really seem to average out huh? Nothing unusual... H8 the damage not the gap closer... Although all of the above can do massive bursts... (yes, even alistar) Also an interesting observation for all of these champions above 50% win rate (except for annie) is that they all have some form of protection (fizz, and fiora's untargetable, akali, talon's stealth, panth's block, kat's resets, etc. Another interesting observation for all except annie (again) is that they're all assassins... I think OP just want assassins to be nerfed in general which I agree, and to add to that, all types of damage should be nerfed too.

Interesting thoughts.

My random thoughts on some of those champs.

Alistar - Is never built pure AP, so isn't really a burst champ. His ratios are actually better than I would have thought on his Q and W, but without a third ability to burst with he wouldn't be able to 100-0 at almost any point. I suspect this is why he is never built pure AP.

Lee - Everyone on this forum already wants Lee nerfed, for numerous other reasons. That being said, he actually doesn't have a point and click gap closer to an enemy. I don't want to get into a debate on whether Lee takes skill to play, but there is no doubt his gap closer requires a skill shot.

Yasuo - Riot nerfed him so hard but he still has a 25% ban rate. His win rate against the burst characters under discussion here is absurdly low. A lot of his power requires either hitting a skill shot or capitalizing on a team mate's knock up (which is often a skill shot). Again, despite all of this he has a 25% ban rate.

Jayce - I never would think of Jayce in this category, but it's an interesting mention. Strangely, a lot of Jayce's burst is poke burst, which is just weird. Regardless, a lot of his power is tied up in hitting a poke skill shot, so I don't count him.

Rengar - I believe his win rate would be sooo much higher if his gap closer wasn't tied to being in a bush. As it is, it requires his ult to use in open ground. I believe this is why his win rate is so much lower than the other champions who can just jump onto you whenever. Also, outputting his full combo requires hitting a skill shot.

Jax - He does insane damage late, but I still think of him as DPS and not burst. He has a lot of bad lane matchups, and also tends to get camped. Truthfully though, I have no idea why his win rate is so low, and I have no idea why he was buffed.

Yi - Another champion who does insane damage late, but is more of a case of ridiculously high DPS than burst. His Q chunks you, but after that he's just AAing. He more than any other champion probably is at odds with my general point. That being said, it doesn't surprise me that his win rate isn't that high. He doesn't get Zhonyas like the AP assassins, doesn't have any CC, and can't quite do what Fiora does as well as she does it.

Poppy - Insanely weak laning phase, else she would be up there.

Xin - Very similar to Yi in terms of a good example of being at odds with my point.

Wu - Doesn't his high win rate bolster my point?

Xonra4 votes

{quoted}

Non-Ultimate Point and click gap closers you say? Alistar 44.69% LeeSin 45.83% Yasuo 45.9% Jayce 47.01% Rengar 47.39% Jax 48.07% MasterYi 49.53% Poppy 49.76% XinZhao 50.39% Quinn 50.4% MonkeyKing 52.44% Win rates really seem to average out huh? Nothing unusual... H8 the damage not the gap closer... Although all of the above can do massive bursts... (yes, even alistar) Also an interesting observation for all of these champions above 50% win rate (except for annie) is that they all have some form of protection (fizz, and fiora's untargetable, akali, talon's stealth, panth's block, kat's resets, etc. Another interesting observation for all except annie (again) is that they're all assassins... I think OP just want assassins to be nerfed in general which I agree, and to add to that, all types of damage should be nerfed too.

Completely missing the point you say?

-Alistar has no burst currently, especially after his touch ups, and he sure as heck isn't easily getting out if he went all in. -Lee Sin has a low win rate because everyone from Bronze to Challenger thinks they are Insec and still play him in ranked even when they have no idea what he does. This is more a case of popularity than not strong. -Yasuo has no real point and click engage outside of his ult, which he needs to either have someone assist to knock up or his with any easily dodged tornado that is telegraphed by his aura. Doesn't fit the category -The fact you even put Jayce on here shows you are completely missing the point. -Rengar has a dive on you, yes, and it is bursty with other abilities yes, and he can be punished for it much more than the champs mentioned by the OP like Akali or Zed and unless rengar is fed he isn't going to burst you as fast either. -Jax...sort of ish fits the bill but not really. He has to nearly be in melee range anyways to dive on you like that unlike an akali with her forever dive, or Kat, or Zed. Not the same. -Lee is closer but he would have a higher win rate easily if he wasn't spammed in bronze every other game. -Poppy is a bad example from you, not because she doesn't fit, but actually you are partially proving the point as her winrate has skyrocketed in the past month or so from one of the lower win rates about 4-5 months ago to baaaaarely out of 50%. She has gotten very popular in higher elo and not in lower because people are bad. -Xin is not the same case at all. At. All. Will leave it at that. -Quinn....really? Not even gonna bother. -Wu is close, very close, and he even has a +50% winrate.

Aaaaaalso, saying they all have some form of protection except for Annie, have you not seen a properly built Annie toss up that shield and give you the finger as she walks away from you? She is a squishy made but she has more protection than you give her credit for...and pretty sure a giant flaming sunfire cape bear that just stunned you (assuming you aren't all dead) is pretty good protection.

Hinagiku333 votes

Allow me a counter-point:

Targeted abilities can be necessary, especially for gap-closers. As a Fiora main, I think it would be hilariously OP if Fiora's Q were not a targeted ability. Fiora has no escape, no CC, and basically no defense unless she decides to blow her ult to dodge something. Letting her use her dash to escape would make her far, far harder to hurt and let her engage and disengage at will - if you let me do this with Fiora I would dominate most of the match-ups I would otherwise lose.

Imagine Akali who can dash to ally units or just ground-dash with no target. Not fun right? How about Kat?

It's easy to say "they can't miss" and leave it at that. So I ask you, "how do you make them miss?" What would you rather see? Do you want to give all champions with targeted gap-closers the ability to ground-dash? Do you just want nerfs to range and damage? What do you actually want to happen to the assassin archetype?

Believe me, I would LOVE more skill-intensive champs. I mained Kat in season 2 a long time before her rework and she was considered terrible in almost any situation despite having that targeted gap-closer and burst due to her massive dependence on gold, inability to farm, and crippling weakness to literally any form of CC. Riot nerfed and damage but gave her the ability to farm and actually buy items and suddenly she was "OP".

I mained Akali after that. She needed a dedicated rune page just to function, otherwise she wouldn't be able to activate both halves of her passive until at least her first back. She was considered bad because she needed to have a specific, not-especially-optimal rune page (and sometimes first buy) to work right and was crippled by having to rush Gunblade for the stats and spellvamp - the AD and spellvamp were mandatory since she got NO spellvamp until she bought AD and the 20% spellvamp since she couldn't afford to get any other AD items, she could only get Gunblade because it also gave decent AP that she needed for her burst. Then Riot changed her passive and let people have the abilities for free and she was suddenly "OP".

Now I main Fiora and for TWO YEARS she was considered one of the worst champs in the League because she had no wave-clear, no escape, no CC, and a pitiful excuse for defense. Having to kill minions with auto-attacks for the whole game made it really hard to get items and the best Fiora could do in a teamfight was to build AD/Crit and pray. Then Riot fixed Tiamat and made Ravenous Hydra and Blade of the Ruined King. Now Fiora had actual core items and could rush an item that let her farm like normal champs do. Then suddenly she became "OP" and her ult was nerfed recently for synergizing with her core items.

Targeted gap-closers and burst are only a problem because killing the AD Carry fast is required to win. The real problem is Riot not giving champs proper weaknesses or taking existing weaknesses away. Nerfing numbers just makes champs un-fun since they can't do their job or other champs do to exact same thing but better. Giving everyone unique weaknesses to counter these strengths would be much better for the game overall.

Drunkèn Master2 votes

Slightly above 50% is hardly dominating.

A Slime Appears5 votes

Sona wishes this were true.

Solaxo1 votes

So ~50% WR is OP now? Do you even math bro?

Frikgeek8 votes

{quoted}

So ~50% WR is OP now? Do you even math bro?

It kindof is. A single champion is only 1/10th of the game, if he manages to swing the outcome from a 50-50 to a 48-52 on average that's pretty big, especially considering that some of these champions are very popular and played even when you probably shouldn't play them(bad matchups, no experience with that champion, etc.) You'll also note that the easiest champions to play(Akali and Annie) have very high winrates. 56-44 is pretty much gamebreaking.

Junkο2 votes

It's funny because Yasuo and Lee 45% winrate and are considered OP.

killd0zer1 votes

Yasuo isn't even OP anymore; he's just a perfect example of why putting every single mechanic you can think of on a champion is a bad idea. They had to cut like 2 effects and reduce this or that and how he's stupidly undertuned to make up for the fact if he's played perfectly, hes still only pretty strong.

Space Bum1 votes

Endless mobility is not op? Ok... I am pretty sure he is just the biggest victim of nonskilled players wanting to pick the op champ.

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