I feel like this would balance the game between AP and AD defense if there was an item that returned say... 5% of AP damage as damage to the caster? I was thinking a little higher, but then champions like Annie/Lux would just die instantly if she R+W a group of 3 people wearing it.
67chrome4 votesAP isn't a damage type. It's a stat that scales the power of abilities.
The word(s) you're looking for would be either "ability thornmail" or "magic thornmail", as AP isn't exactly a thing you're hit with. I mean - when Tryndamere uses his AP scaling Spinning Slash to hit you - that's physical and ability damage for the purposes of all existing defensive items, not "AP damage".
As for why there isn't a magic-damage or ability thornmail, that's probably a case of their just being to many issues for it to be a good thing that adds to the game.
First issue: Thornmail's ultimate purpose is offsetting life steal and essentially negating it. Pretty much every physical-heavy champion is going to get a life-steal item of some type. Spell vampirisim isn't a good equivalent on the magic-heavy side. For on-hit magic damage dealers like Teemo and Lulu, it doesn't even apply to their on-hit damage. For those it does - spell vamp isn't very appealing to their playstyle, costing to much mana in-lane for what little it offers, and the AP exclusive Zhonya's active just being significantly better at keeping them alive late-game when it's nice to offer a burst of defense on a burst-caster, as opposed to life steal offering sustained defense on sustained damage dealers.
Second issue: items aren't terribly redundant in LoL, and that adds to the feel of certain build-paths and itemization routes. Their isn't an AP QSS, there isn't an AD Zhonya's. Even basic stats are set in certain patterns - life steal and armor penetration are only found on items with a solid chunk of AD and neither are found on items with critical strikes, HP/5 is usually found on items with solid MR, etc. Counterparts between classes are more life The Bloodthirster vs. Zhonya's Hourglass: one offers sustained-damage champions the sustain necessary to survive despite being squishy, Zhonya's offers burst-damage champions a burst of survivability so they can survive despite being squishy. A lot cooler than just separating 2 build-paths by name only via mirror-items existing IMO. Bursty and magical champions function rather differently than the physical auto-attackers that Thornmail currently targets: partially because items like Thornmail exist that target physical auto-attackers, and items like Banshee's Veil exist that target burst-casters.
Third issue: Thorns is a power-without-gameplay issue. It gives a lot of power for essentially no work at all. Rather than forcing a player to accurately time and land their skills, hit multiple units with AoE, or utilize a certain combo to get the most of their AP: Thornmail just punishes your opponents for doing the very things they should be trying to accomplish for their win-condition. Which just sucks once it gets to a certain level of power - as the only way of dealing with Thornmail is avoiding the person wearing it entirely, which isn't far removed from not playing the game and just giving up: so not really an option in regarding counter-play strategies if Riot wants people to actually play their game. In Dominion it actually can be that oppressive vs. a solid number of champions, in Treelines it was removed: largely due to power-without-gameplay issues if I remember the Rioter's reasoning for that correctly. In Rift you'll usually have enough armor pen, life steal, and MR to deal with thornmail once you actually run into someone with it.
Fourth issue: auto-attacks are a fairly slow way to kill people that give a reasonable response/reaction time to killing yourself with Thornmail. Most abilities just don't afford that luxury - often being front-loaded and bursty, and ones that are delivered over some time like Syndra's Unleash Power mostly lock the caster in their animation time without offering a realistic out. Like you mentioned - the AoE thing would also be an issue.
Anyways - the culmination of those 4 things makes an anti-ability thorn item an unlikely addition to LoL's itemization.
Wiggle Dat Butt1 votesAP isn't a damage type. It's a stat that scales the power of abilities.
The word(s) you're looking for would be either "ability thornmail" or "magic thornmail", as AP isn't exactly a thing you're hit with. I mean - when Tryndamere uses his AP scaling Spinning Slash to hit you - that's physical and ability damage for the purposes of all existing defensive items, not "AP damage".
While I can appreciate your novel that you replied with, wording is really a non-issue in what I said. If someone doesn't understand what I meant by AP damage (or magic damage as you say) then they probably shouldn't be playing. I just thought this was condescending and really unneccessary. Thanks.
67chrome2 votesWording is actually a huge, huge issue in regards to how such an item would function.
Targeting AP scaling abilities like Tryndamere's Slash is a different thing than targeting magic damage like Thornmail's reflected damage, or ability damage like Darius's Noxious Guillotine. Or specifically magic abilities like Unleash Power - which nothing in-game actually targets currently, and that would require creating a new set of rules with it's own awkward edge-cases. Champions like Veigar also exist that used to actually debuff, or "damage" AP itself.
Depending on what exactly "AP thornmail" does effects a significant number of variables, my intent wasn't to be condescending. It was to highlight the far-reaching consequences of such an item existing. Especially the fact that it would interact with several champions that don't scale with AP at all. At least if such an item played by existing rules.
EndlessSorcerer3 votesBeat me too it, and probably covered it more comprehensively than I would have.
Thank you for saving me the effort of typing up an answer.
IcyPepper2 votesWhy don't we have an armor aura item?
Not all items should have an opposite equivalent. And an AP thornmail would be weaker than normal thornmail, due to the nature of burst vs sustained damage and how weak spellvamp is compared to lifesteal.
Renaille1 votesbecause magic burst and physical dps are not meant to parallel each other.
lightdragoon881 votesbecause magic burst and physical dps are not meant to parallel each other.
True words.
Rose Muffins1 votesHere is the problem with that. If you have no way of healing and you're not a healer mage, then you will always die instantly from your own attacks. Swain and other people who build spell vamp would be the only mages you could trust and even then spell vamp isn't reliable enough as it is. Why do ADC's have thornmail to counter them then? Because it's mainly a source of countering their life steal if they have any. Get a thornmail against an ADC without lifesteal and they die all the time. But if they have bloodthirster or BOTRK, then you're gonna have a harder time since they're healing the damage your thornmail does as well as still damaging you. I will repeat, until mages get something done about spellvamp being unreliable, nothing will be done about giving you an AP thornmail.
AxlRose091 votesFunny, I was actually thinking about this the other day. And I do agree with you.
Khristophoros1 votesBecause 2 wrongs don't make a right.
Beerstein1 votesBecause we have Force of Nature...Oh wait...
JustMyBassCannon1 votesLet me counterpose a question.
What would you do if a champion built both of these Thornmails?