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4.21s out, what's in store for Cassiopeia for 4.22? She's "viable" now, so let's make her SATISFYING

5G8Nri0B54··7 votes·1,083 views

It's been 2 or more days now. This loser played her, some other guy played her, this other guy played with her, even this guy played her! Many people have diddled around with the 4.21 Cassiopeia. She's viable now, maybe even OP. However noone ever called into question your ability to balance her. All that takes is dialing up numbers here and there.

As you've stated your goal of 4.21 was to make her less trash so that she can actually sorta be a thing, that means 4.22 is the patch where she finally gets fixed.

I've given my thoughts on your decision to make her a slithering E-button, issues with her Passive, etc.

And you've seen those posts and I'm sure you've probably read some of the Cassiopeia threads that's been popping up even if you haven't commented on them.

I guess I'll just leave this here. When you design Cassiopeia's kit, ask yourself...

  1. Why is a Poison Mage so focused on being an all-in mano-a-mano brawler challenging her opponent to a DUEL rather than performing cowardly hit and run tactics with her biological warfare? (and only going in to finish the job)

  2. Why does a Poison Mage's entire kit have to be so disappointing just so the one non-poison ability in her kit can be stupidly juiced up?

On a more meta side note, I really think reworks and champion designs as a whole should focus on making a champion FUN and THEMATICALLY COHERENT first before making them viable. Because you if you make a champion FUN, people will play them even if they're OP ala release Sion, whereas if you make them unfun but viable/OP...people aren't going to touch the champion unless they see a LCS pro abuse her.

Imagine if you released Zac and for some reason your kit made him a much better ADC than he is a tank. So rather than making him a tank, you make him a viable ADC first and foremost and then take the time to make him a tank. What was so special about Cassiopeia's rework that makes her treated so much differently than other champions with their reworks?

16 Comments

Kingsgrave1 votes

Stashu doesnt see Cass as a poison mage, he sees Cass as a snake that uses poison but mostly fangs who is also a mage. A real poison mage wouldn't have her E or her R honestly.** If Stashu honestly saw Cass as the defacto poison mage for LoL he would have focused on giving her a new kit entirely. You can't have 2 mega DoTs with a single target nuke ability and a stun without making the former so much stronger than the latter that it feels heavily lackluster. Maybe just focus on making Cass feel as gorgon/medusa as possible? Maybe focus on her being this Snake lady rather than some Poison mage? Honestly the Poison mage concept is wasted on Cass as it stands.**

Maybe this leaves room for a "real" poison mage? Kinda how Yi and Yasuo are both samurais but Yasuo is a lot more fitting to the archetype than Yi is. Cass just seems to me like she is Medusa, not a poison mage. Riot doesn't seem to be willing to budge at all on this, and I doubt they will since they have stuck to this for like 5-6 patches now, so honestly just focus your attention on something else about Cass.** They might actually listen for once but I still doubt it because they are stubborn as all hell. **

If Cass is the defacto poison mage in the eyes of many, how are the following not poison champions as well?: Twitch Urgot Malzahar KogMaw

Also, your example with Zac doesn't fit this Cass problem at all. Cass was a mage before and is still a mage now. They didn't change a character from a tank/bruiser into an ADC.

I would suggest the forum goers here do either of the following:

Option A: Convince Stashu to rework her E and R to make her an actual Poison Mage Option B: Convince Stashu to buff the rest of her kit besides her E so she isnt such a one trick pony

5G8Nri0B546 votes

I'm kinda doubtful on the Medusa part. If you're referring to her R, that's literally all she has. Maybe if she had more snakes running around, but as you've probably remembered, they actually REMOVED a lot of Cassiopeia's snakes in a much earlier rework years ago. Her Q used to bring out snakes, her AA was a literal snake rather than this glowy snake-shaped energy, and she was more reptilian before.

Anyways, back to the Medusa thing. If that was the intention, Riot failed...hard. She has literally nothing to do with Medusa outside of her Ultimate...and knowing Riot champion design back during Cassiopeia's release, I think they literally stuck it in because Medusa had snake hair and Cassiopeia had lots of snakes.

Plus she doesn't even have the theme and backstory appropriate for Medusa. And there is no way in hell Riot is ballsy enough to give Cassiopeia anything resembling Medusa's backstory unless they seek unwanted attention.

(although I admit a genuine Medusa champion would have been neat...her kit would somehow involve directional abilities akin to Cass's R and her snake hair would be some sort of autonomous pet stuck on Medusa, but able to act independently of her actions)

Option A: Convince Stashu to rework her E and R to make her an actual Poison Mage

I'm pretty sure there's been multiple threads on that already.

Option B: Convince Stashu to buff the rest of her kit besides her E so she isnt such a one trick pony

That'd make her HORRIFICALLY overpowered unless they compensate by toning down her E...

In which case we're back to old Cassiopeia only with a new Passive. I'd actually be down with that, because as much as I hate this rework, there are some genuinely good things done. For instance the QoL changes to her E's poison detection, her R's detection when someone is right on top of Cass, and her Q's reactivity..........too bad that last one also came with making it's cooldown HIGHER THAN THE POISON DURATION.

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted} I'm kinda doubtful on the Medusa part. If you're referring to her R, that's literally all she has. Maybe if she had more snakes running around, but as you've probably remembered, they actually REMOVED a lot of Cassiopeia's snakes in a much earlier rework years ago. Her Q used to bring out snakes, her AA was a literal snake rather than this glowy snake-shaped energy, and she was more reptilian before.

Anyways, back to the Medusa thing. If that was the intention, Riot failed...hard. She has literally nothing to do with Medusa outside of her Ultimate...and knowing Riot champion design back during Cassiopeia's release, I think they literally stuck it in because Medusa had snake hair and Cassiopeia had lots of snakes.

Plus she doesn't even have the theme and backstory appropriate for Medusa. And there is no way in hell Riot is ballsy enough to give Cassiopeia anything resembling Medusa's backstory unless they seek unwanted attention.

(although I admit a genuine Medusa champion would have been neat...her kit would somehow involve directional abilities akin to Cass's R and her snake hair would be some sort of autonomous pet stuck on Medusa, but able to act independently of her actions)

I'm pretty sure there's been multiple threads on that already.

That'd make her HORRIFICALLY overpowered unless they compensate by toning down her E...

In which case we're back to old Cassiopeia only with a new Passive.

All they really need to do is figure out a better benchmark than "more AP" * if they want to go the lazy route*

I kinda like the idea of Cass using her Es constantly to make her DoTs hurt more, but the DoTs are still the majority of her damage. Even a snake uses their fangs and constrict (her R essentially in concept) to make their poison hurt more

That way she doesn't do what old Cass did by just spamming Q and W all the time to bully people out, and doesn't do what 4.21 Cass does and just spams E without really caring at all about Q or W. Old Cass felt like 60% of a character, new feels like 45ish%. This idea could bring her up to 80-100%.

Kinda wish Stashu would have done that instead now that I think about it. You have a more optimistic tone to your threads so maybe if you like the idea preach it? Stashu has a habit of listening to your posts from what I can tell, even though it may not seem like it.

5G8Nri0B544 votes

Apparently it was a little more complex than that.

She didn't so much bully people out of lane as she harasses them with her Q, and made it impossible to retaliate due to how stupid strong her E also was.

In other words, there was little interaction beyond dodging her poison because getting too close to her meant getting wrecked by her E comboes pre-rework. As her poison actually did DAMAGE back then, this was a problem. While not super duper powerful, her Q's were enough to make the fact that you are not allowed to retaliate at all completely intolerable.

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted} Apparently it was a little more complex than that.

She didn't so much bully people out of lane as she harasses them with her Q, and made it impossible to retaliate due to how stupid strong her E also was.

In other words, there was little interaction beyond dodging her poison because getting too close to her meant getting wrecked by her E comboes pre-rework. As her poison actually did DAMAGE back then, this was a problem. While not super duper powerful, her Q's were enough to make the fact that you are not allowed to retaliate at all completely intolerable.

So lets keep brainstorming here.

Q cant be so much that it destroys people, and it cant be so much that it makes it impossible to trade with her, but ironically currently she does this thing to most top laners if you take her there that basically destroys them in 2 seconds with E mashing.

So why not try out this:

  1. E ramps up poison damage and lowers to a .5 second cd and all that jazz that it does currently but with much less damage and less mana cost more or less
  2. E itself extends poison duration and amps poison damage
  3. Q and W are her primary spells, more so Q, but don't destroy a target completely unless you combo all of your abilities together for longer than like 4-6 seconds
  4. Bonuses on her passive are Heal, MS boosts, etc., not AP and CDR increases

Poison and Snake should eat away at you constantly but if you get away fast enough it won't matter. She might need a lot more defenses to deal with being that up close all the time though and she might just be destined to be a top laner.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

I think I've made like a thousand suggestions scattered among all the other Cassiopeia threads.

But one particular one I was particularly fond of one where her Poison interacted with her passive more meaningfully.

Knowing Stashu, he probably wants to preserve a number of things, chief among them the "E needing to hit poisoned targets"-relationship. I can live with that, it was how she became THIS ATROCITY that I'm not pleased at all with.

  • Her curve is much more smoothed out than it is now, with a more capable early-mid game

a) Stashu can bring back the ability to gain Passive stacks off minions, as I believe it was stated the interaction was removed because she was struggling enough as it is, no need to make her jump an extra hoop. She's more manageable early game now in a large part due to her not having to worry about which minions are poisoned or not

b) Nothing about her character comes off as fitting of a hyper late game god

  • Her poison starts off WEAK, as weak as they are now...maybe even weaker,** however the damage ramps up based on the duration it's been on the enemy champion**

  • Her E's base damage and ratios are nerfed, but in return it gains a new effect, there different paths to go for with her E, either

Idea A. Hitting a poisoned opponent with her E consumes ALL the poison in the opponent, dealing damage based off the duration the poison's been on the opponent AND heal Cassiopeia based on the poison's duration...the burst of damage, even if high, will ALWAYS be lower than the damage of a full duration of poison

or much less interesting but much safer (for balancing)...

Idea B. The fang latches on to the opponent, further extending the poison's direction and giving Cassiopeia a slight MS buff when moving towards the opponent she fanged allowing her to catch up and continue landing more Q's

  • Her Passives milestones are completely different now

a) Rather than giving "free stats", her Passive unlocked various debuffs and various bonuses for her Poisons. Emphasis on various.

b) The milestones are MUCH greater in consistency. Rather than a single spike in power at various milestones, Cassiopeia should instead gain a milestone every minute or two, "+0.5 second to all poison duration", "+0.1 extra damage per poison tick", "enemy inflict 5% less damage after being poisoned for 4 seconds", "enemy loses 5% MR after 5 seconds", "enemy poisoned for 10 seconds are blinded", etc. The debilitation are all trivial (I hope), but they ADD UP and when the enemy starts noticing how much weaker they've become, it's too late.

  • Poison indicator will be something more prominent than a tiny purple bubble over the unit's head...this should have been a thing from the beginning

Now there is the obvious problem that her Passive is still Thematically Inconsistent, even if you don't see her as a Poison Mage, there's the disjunction over the fact that you're poisoning the enemy with the express purpose of making yourself stronger.

However atleast the extra power she is building up is thematically consistent, so it half makes up for it.

As a Poison Mage, her MO is to inflict poison, and to keep the poison up for as long as possible, this is reflected off the ramping damage and her E's effectiveness being based off how long the opponent is poisoned.

Her strengths and counter-play are obvious. She will weaken the hell out of the enemy team with her AoE poison, making things not just easier for her, but her enemy team as well. Her weakness? As she is ~80% DoT, she lack any sort of IMMEDIATE oomph your average AP mid have in their kit. Even someone like Swain can rely on his unusually hard-hitting W to burst. Most other champions will outright KILL you, but with Cassiopeia, your death can be averted by an allied Soraka coming to heal you in time, a LeeSin 's shield, a friendly Lulu /Janna /Orianna shield, a Zilean R, etc.

I'm actually rather in love with "Idea A" because it offers such an engaging trade-offs, "should I cast my E now?! Or do I risk it and try to poison them some more?! Do I want to consume that poison to heal+burst, or do I want to let the poison stew longer?!". Also, notice with "Idea A", it's not just a matter of deciding to heal+burst or do more damage+debilitate over time, the player also has to take into consideration that consuming the poison also stops her Passive from stacking up too.

RESULT

  • She is no longer a lane-bully as her Poison's ramp up time takes a while to really do anything meaningful, the enemy can choose whether to retaliate against a snake who can't do much else yet or run to avoid further poisoning

  • Stashu's desire to keep the "E poisoned target"-relationship is preserved

  • Stashu's desire to gate Cassiopeia with a Passive that hurts her is preserved, only a lot less frustrating and more thematically consistent now

  • Being a largely DoT champion offers counter-play up the wazoo, especially if the DoT starts off weak and need to ramp up

  • she will be THEMATICALLY CONSISTENT (even if you think she is more of a Medusa than Poison Mage, she's hardly that as well)

Saevum3 votes

Option A: Convince Stashu to rework her E and R to make her an actual Poison Mage Option B: Convince Stashu to buff the rest of her kit besides her E so she isnt such a one trick pony

Lets take option C:

Remove Stashu from reworking Cassiopeia and hand her over to CertainlyT. That way, she may gonna be broken but she's gonna be FUN & rewarding at least. Even if Morello nerfs her using the Pisa Tower.

Narasimha1 votes

Why is a Poison Mage so focused on being an all-in mano-a-mano brawler challenging her opponent to a DUEL rather than performing cowardly hit and run tactics with her biological warfare? (and only going in to finish the job)

I mean, you just answered your own question. If you make her poisons strong, then you end up in the same scenario Ziggs was in at his peak. A poke based mage that an opponent had minimal options against. All she has to do is keep wearing the enemy down with no risk to herself, and wheres the fun in that for the other laner?

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Ziggs in his peak had far higher range, directly countered split pushing with his R, and most importantly...HAD A GAP CLOSER TO LET HIM ESCAPE GANKS (and also knocked enemies back a little)

Narasimha1 votes

And? Cass has an MS boost to escape ganks (on a far shorter cd, mind you.) a slow as well and her ult if things got really hairy, and her W cleared waves just as nicely. Hell, atleast Ziggs had to worry about mana costs.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Not even close.

Cass' MS boost also doubles at making her much easier to hit, and her Ult...IT'S AN ULT.

Ziggs uses Satchel Charge, safe.

And also, Ziggs? Mana problem? That hasn't been the case for years

exe31 votes

I gave her a try, still super unsatisfying for all the reasons i've given in previous threads. I also still dislike that random bonus mana from landing E. I'm 100% for a mana refund on kill but why she needs the bonus 3% mana (outside of her not being allowed Athene's and mana items with CDR anymore) is beyond me. She still feels like a complete mess of random stats (free mana, free CDR, free AP, etc).

5G8Nri0B541 votes

I feel that bonus mana regen should be a little more similar to Swain's Passive in that, it grants mana upon minion kill, and a significant chunk more mana on champion kill so she still have mana for the entire teamfight.

DemiluniS1 votes

buy tear of the godess, really helpful for mana sustain

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

I honestly don't think her new kit can be truly fixed without the end result looking either significantly different than her current kit or very similar to her old kit. Prerework she already had one of the most complicated kits in the game. The rework made her kit even more complicated and the latest patch even more so. That may not mean anything to Cass mains who love her. But to the general league community she has been degraded to Urgot-tier, high-risk/low-reward, etc. I am not sure how much more can be tacked on and adjusted before she breaks and the community gives up.

I don't even know how to describe how my games have gone since the last patch.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Yeah I'm just kinda waiting out for 4.22 to see what Stashu has in stores as he says that he is "still working on Cassiopeia" after 4.21.

Of course we haven't heard any updates in a while as well, however this is his pattern, so just gotta be patient...make more Cass threads in the forums...and wait.

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