Kog's passive should make him fundamentally different from other Marksmen

Rebonack··28 votes·2,594 views

I'm thinking Graves and Jhin, different here. Not, not with an ammo system. That would make no sense on Kog.

Instead, let him scale in a fashion altogether different. He's supposed to be the OnHit machine gun guy now, right? Or at least that's what Riot is pushing him as. So why not go all the way instead of half-assing it?

Passive - Eldritch Acid: Kog'Maw's basic attacks have a base AD ratio rather than a total AD ratio and deal magic damage rather than physical damage. Bonus attack damage, critical strike chance, ability power, and life-steal all modify his basic attacks with OnHit effects.

-Bonus Attack Damage grants Kog'Maw (AD ratio) flat magic damage. -Ability Power grants Kog'Maw (AP ratio) %Missing HP magic damage. -Critical Strike Chance grants Kog'Maw (Crit% ratio) %Max HP magic damage. -Lifesteal grants Kog'Maw (amount per 1%) flat healing.

I can see two mains ways to balance this. Either with higher values and Kog's W working more or less as it does right now. Or with lower values and his W scaling down to a cooldown of zero once he maxes it so that it is always available.

Generally speaking, the goal would be to make AD, Crit, and OnHit passives all equally useful on him. And just to mention now, Kog's base attack damage would still be able to crit and lifesteal normally. This new passive would make Kog arguably the worst Marksmen for destroying Towers. However, his damage against champions and monster objectives should be tuned to the high end of the scale, which is where it should be by all accounts. Thus, Kog should be picked when your team wants high selection long range single target DPS in addition to obscenely fast Baron and Dragon clears.

This Passive remake would probably require some other changes to his kit. Notably the %Armor shred on his Q would be largely redundant, though amping your team's damage is always helpful. But that's beyond the scope of this topic.

82 Comments

Lannister5 votes

Icathian Delight : Kog'Maw's basic attacks and damaging abilities coat its target in digestive juices. Enemy champions that have perished after receiving at least [x] stacks are available to be devoured by walking over them. Devouring an enemy champion grants Kog'Maw a permanent [y] damage on hit (not sure whether it should be magical, physical, %hp, etc).

Upon death -> current passive + (25*#of stacks) additional scaling.

...I don't play kog enough or anything to really come up with a great passive, but I've always wondered why he was never able interact with enemy champions as food... I mean the guy is always hungry, but he only ever vomits. How counter-productive.

Yuumi or Lose4 votes

Kog needs mana cost reduction and an AD ratio on his w. Why they took that away is a question beyond me.

Rebonack4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Junkyard TrundIe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7ELntAg1,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-02T19:41:06.961+0000)

Kog needs mana cost reduction and an AD ratio on his w. Why they took that away is a question beyond me.

Because a Kog that actually scales into a hyper-carry late game might threaten the hegemony of League's golden-girls Jinx VayneTristana

Z Statistic2 votes

No, it's because AD gave him dps and max health damage. AP gave him max health damage. onhit gave him dps.

AD was the clear choice.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Menea Calais,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7ELntAg1,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-02-02T21:32:26.391+0000)

No, it's because AD gave him dps and max health damage. AP gave him max health damage. onhit gave him dps.

AD was the clear choice.

It had nothing to do with trying to find parity between his builds.

Riot summed it up as follows 'We think Kog was too strong late and too weak early, so we're removing his late game scaling and giving him 5 extra damage early game in return'. The break-even point was 160 total attack damage. You could reach that with Rageblade (stacked), Doren's, and runes.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

But the only other AD item Kog's were building after that was Bork which gives paltry amounts of AD, you didn't get that much more max health damage WITH the AD scaling.

Orangesilk1 votes

No ADC ever should skip on item 3031 it's just the DPS item in the game.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Corki, Ezreal, Vayne, Graves, Quinn, Kindred... Plenty of marksmen don't typically buy nor need IE.

WarlockLaw1 votes

That tells me that IE should get nerfed for build diversity, also now that kog has a reduced ad scaling to autos, while w is active, he usually gets more damage from on hits than ad/crits

Orangesilk1 votes

The thing is he -doesn't-. He's now pigeonholed and forced to build on-hits due to the way his W works, he only works when building on hits. But crit as a concept is much higher dps than an on-hit, hence the problem with Kogs lategame scaling.

WarlockLaw1 votes

But if he has twice the attack speed then, in a manner of speaking, his on hits deal double damage.

Honestly his biggest problem is the lack of relevant pen for him. If riot put out an item that gave ad + ap + hybrid pen his late game would be good

Orangesilk1 votes

Jax Kayle No.

WarlockLaw1 votes

I was thinking something like last whisper style pen plus like 15-20% mpen and just enough ad/ap to make the item gold efficient with a 3000 gold price tag. That should allow it to be useful for the 4 champs that would buy it without allowing it to be too strong.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I was thinking something like last whisper style pen plus like 15-20% mpen and just enough ad/ap to make the item gold efficient with a 3000 gold price tag. That should allow it to be useful for the 4 champs that would buy it without allowing it to be too strong.

It would require Kayle to get dumpstered, probably. Not that that would be a bad thing. She's in desperate need of a rework. Her kit is such that any time a new item is released that works well with her kit at all, she gets catapulted in OP land.

WarlockLaw1 votes

Obviously if any of the 4 manage to be noticeably stronger than the others we would need them nerfed.

Her kit is such that any time a new item is released that works well with her kit at all, she gets catapulted in OP land.

I find it funny how the same isn't entirely true of Jax

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Obviously if any of the 4 manage to be noticeably stronger than the others we would need them nerfed.

I find it funny how the same isn't entirely true of Jax

It's a bit different with Jax because he lacks Kayle's safety and her ability to wholly invalidate burst. It does apply to him, though not as strongly.

Saianna2 votes

Kog OnHit is rather meh (actually, it kinda is bad comparing to "normal" ADCs)..

He deals some nice damage, but he had never been as fragile as right now. Once Riot will shaft even more power into his W, Kogmaw will be in even worse spot.

Rendarkan1 votes

Still won't stop AP Kog'Maw

Axis the Dragon2 votes

AP Kog is in a terrible state right now, though. They gutted Ult's damage above 50% HP, which is when AP Kog usually uses it anyway. If I'm not mistaken, E's damage was reduced as well. I think the current R only breaks even with old R between 25 and 50% HP, and actually becomes better lower than 25%... but by then, people would've been practically dead already, so there's no point anymore >>

Rendarkan2 votes

I still will play AP Kog'Maw though. It's kinda like how Malicious Metal sticks to Mordekaiser. Regardless of nerfs or buffs he is still my favorite AA AP pick, along side Teemo and Diana and such.

Axis the Dragon2 votes

I do occasionally play him in Normals, but I've dropped him altogether in Ranked =/

Well, I tend to play him poke AP though instead of AA (I don't get Nashor's, for example, and just get Tear -> Rylai's + Liandry's ASAP)

I should try the AP AA build and see if it's better (I'm assuming it's pretty good since the raw AP you get for Nashor's AA is not reduced by Kog's AD reduction when W is activated)

Is AA AP the new best build for Kog? I should try it sometime

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Axis the Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7ELntAg1,comment-id=00020000000000010000,timestamp=2016-02-02T22:01:28.611+0000)

I do occasionally play him in Normals, but I've dropped him altogether in Ranked =/

Well, I tend to play him poke AP though instead of AA (I don't get Nashor's, for example, and just get Tear -> Rylai's + Liandry's ASAP)

I should try the AP AA build and see if it's better (I'm assuming it's pretty good since the raw AP you get for Nashor's AA is not reduced by Kog's AD reduction when W is activated)

Is AA AP the new best build for Kog? I should try it sometime

Like all things on Kog at the moment, it's okay.

Not super terrible. Just okay.

item 3124 item 3115 item 3135 item 3091 item 3020 and one situational item is sorta the standard for AP Marksmen Kog.

AP Kog's big problem in Ranked is that other champs do his thing better. AP Auto attacker? Kayle or Azir if you're godly. AP Poke mage? Lux, Xerath, or Ziggs. He's fine for normals and just having fun. But that's true of any champion.

Axis the Dragon2 votes

I was actually thinking about running Gunblade over Wit's and finishing with Rabcap

Idk how much damage Gunblade + Rabcap adds to Rageblade's on-hit effect, though. If it gives more than 42 - since Wit's End's on-hit effect most likely won't actually be dealing 42 damage due to base MR + prevalence of Locket, I think we can safely ignore the MR shred - I might actually consider it. The drop in attack speed might be noticeable, though.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Kog OnHit is rather meh (actually, it kinda is bad comparing to "normal" ADCs)..

He deals some nice damage, but he had never been as fragile as right now. Once Riot will shaft even more power into his W, Kogmaw will be in even worse spot.

I honestly doubt there's any chance of reverting the Kog remake. So if we're going to pitch anything, it may as well be revolving around his new double attack speed gimmick. If Riot had just made his W apply OnHit effects twice while active and did literally nothing else to Kog he probably would have been fine.

Dengeden2 votes

The irony of Kog already having a very distinct passive from other ADCs. And then the facepalm of wanting to give him what items already do for him.

He has a weak laning phase, deal with it.

Axis the Dragon2 votes

It's more like Kog's passive makes little sense on his kit. He's a machine gun on-hit ADC... with an AoE burst after death? What?

The problem, I think, with balancing Kog, is that he literally doesn't have a passive until he dies. Not having a passive is a gimp in general, but against most people with 5 spells, he only has 4, and as an ADC, **dying should be the last thing Kog'Maw wants **(unlike guys like Zac and Karthus, who either hard-engage and provide CC before dying, or act as a walkingfloating kamikaze mage). Champs like Anivia and Aatrox can bait dives with their passives, but Kog'Maw straight up dies, no strings attached.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

The irony of Kog already having a very distinct passive from other ADCs. And then the facepalm of wanting to give him what items already do for him.

He has a weak laning phase, deal with it.

Distinctive and unique does not necessarily mean useful.

Kog's passive isn't bad. It has uses. It's quite strong, practically a second Ult in terms of raw power. But it would be better on a champion meant to dive into the front-line with no way of getting out. Riot set out to help give Kog a well focused niche. A reason to be picked. But for some obscene reason they decided to keep his clashing passive.

And if there's an item that converts all your auto-attack damage into magic damage I would love to hear about it.

Orangesilk1 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/KogMaw/ADC

I want you to look at the "Win rate by game length" graphic. What does it show us?, he has a TERRIBLE laning phase, TERRIBLE midgame, he then gets a spike in the early-late game and falls off HARD in the late-late game.

Does that power curve even make any sense?, he doesn't just have a terrible early, he has a terrible late as well, and in a patch in which the premier late-game hyper carry actually FALLS OFF lategame, is a patch that somehow needs to be looked at.

I mean, Kog'Maw falls off lategame, that's kinda like saying Veigar has an oppressive early game, or Nasus should be looking for first-blood, it makes no sense and his balance needs to be completely tweaked in order to fix this.

It's not even about Kog having a terrible early, he doesn't even have a niche anymore.

Dengeden1 votes

It's ... possible that on-hit and/or drain tank Kog'maw falls off late considering he doesn't do any supercrits. But I think it's more likely the winrate drops because longer games make him more liable to get caught or be out of position when a TF breaks out.

Orangesilk1 votes

It's precisely because of this, On-Hit is essentially a midgame mechanic since with the exception of item 3153 it's non-scaling damage, but simple flat additive damage. Basically whenever an ADC buys an item this item multiplies off his other stats, say if you have IE then buy a Shiv, the shiv is mutliplying what the IE does, on the other hand, buying additional on-hit items is like adding more flat damage, it doesn't multiply anything.

Kog had a -bit- of multiplicative power with his AD giving him extra on-hit damage via the W scaling, but as soon as that was removed, Kog'Maws lategame became actually WORSE than that of the other ADCs.

Dengeden1 votes

Attackspeed is a pretty multiplicative stat (and boy does he have that), even if the items he uses to obtain it only stack additively.

Again, I have my doubts that AD is the thing that pushed him over the edge as a late game threat. So many of his items are AS based and his W gimps the sht out of his base auto damage.

Orangesilk1 votes

Attack speed items stack additively, here's the math:

You have a base AS (say 0.665), when you buy an attack speed item, say item 3153 it says "40% attack speed" what 40% attack speed means is that you take your base AS, then multiply by 0.4 and then add it to your attack speed value, so here it would be like:

0.665 * 0.4 = 0.266 + 0.665 = 0.931 (you're htting 0.931 times per second).

If you buy a SECOND attack speed item, say item 3085, it also takes into account your base AS and adds it the same way, so you'd end up with:

0.665 * 0.4 = 0.266 + 0.931 = 1,197.

Basically building pure AS and on-hit is an additive thing, while building crit is a multiplicative thing.

The Governer1 votes

Critical strike chance stacks additively and the only item that grants Kog'Maw more critical strike damage is Infinity Edge, so in what way is critical strike a "multiplicative" thing?

Orangesilk1 votes

Critical strike chance stacks multiplicatively with both IE crit multiplier, and AD as a whole, as well as stacking multiplicatively with attack speed.

On-hits only stack additively with eachother and mutliplicatively with attack speed.

The Governer1 votes

Broadly, yes. In a small sample size (like one auto attack), no.

That critical strike formula you are probably speaking of is a formula for calculating the average damage over a large sample size (aka large amount of auto attacks). Otherwise the formula is inaccurate and the damage of one critical strike only deals " (200% + Additional Critical Strike Damage Percentage) x Total AD ". In some cases it is modified but they are exceptional cases.

Orangesilk1 votes

Well, ADCs build something along the lines of item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 and that's already 80% crit chance, so yeah, it doesn't take a HUGE number of samples to start seeing the multiplicative benefits.

Dengeden1 votes

Oh... oops. In my defense Runaan's and Kog's W stacks multiplicatively with on-hit and AS respectively.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

It's ... possible that on-hit and/or drain tank Kog'maw falls off late considering he doesn't do any supercrits. But I think it's more likely the winrate drops because longer games make him more liable to get caught or be out of position when a TF breaks out.

It's a bit of both.

OnHit builds fall off super late game compared to Crit builds. Kog is likewise super-vulnerable, especially against Mages and Assassins with full builds. Kog had an actual hyper-carry curve when his W had the total AD ratio. It allowed him to feel good about grabbing AD items and laying down the law. Now he's stuck with OnHit and quickly runs out of compelling choices.

Dengeden1 votes

AGAIN, you think the additional 2-3% health damage pushed him over the edge late game-wise?

He's not really vulnerable vs solo laners, he can itemize against them quite well. item 3156 item 3139 item 3091 item 3146 item 3812 His problem is that he doesn't do a lot of single target damage because his kit and (now) his items are AoE focused. When the enemy ADC is mowing down your team one by one, you've got a problem.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

AGAIN, you think the additional 2-3% health damage pushed him over the edge late game-wise?

Without question.

Another 3% max HP damage would translate to an additional 60 to 120 damage late game depending on who you're shooting at. The recent buff to Fervor of Battle increased its max damage by about 30, and that caused Kog's win rate to jump from ~47% to ~49% in addition to a more solid late game presence.

If Kog got 1.25% Max HP damage per 100 bonus AD or so, his late game would be peerless in terms of single target DPS. Which is the class Kog should be in. If his single target damage isn't definitively better than what any other ADC brings to the table, then why on earth would you want to pick him?

Dengeden1 votes

The only truly single target ADC is probably Vayne. The ADC role is focused on shredding the frontline, not on taking down one target.

You'd pick Kog for the long range, mixed damage and cheaper item spikes. Unfortunately, as is the case with most immobile champions, the risk of getting killed or denied early game very rarely is worth that reward.

Samflash31 votes

Sigh. So you want to give him Corki's passive (with some slight differences)?

Rebonack4 votes

{quoted}

Sigh. So you want to give him Corki's passive (with some slight differences)?

Corki: Deals 10% bonus damage and splits his damage evenly between magic and physical.

Kog: Deals only magic damage and converts offensive stats into OnHit effects.

I'm not seeing the connection here.

Sorioku1 votes

How many ranked games do you have with kog'maw. How many normal games do you have with kog'maw.

People just say anything on these boards.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

How many ranked games do you have with kog'maw.

None. I rarely play Summoner's Rift. I ran a few games after Kog's pre-season changes to get a better feel for why he is under-performing there.

Kog is fine over in Dominion-Land, which is where I play predominately. The game there rarely reaches super-late, everyone starts at level 3, deaths aren't as punishing, games don't snowball, and skirmishes are smaller allowing Kog to make better use of his W. All of these factors mitigate the weaknesses that Kog has on Summoner's Rift, which is why he is a solid pick on Dominion.

In fact, he's arguably the only strong immobile ADC pick there.

Kog needs some tweaking to actually work on Rift. The biggest factor, though, is the duration on his W. It lasts long enough to be useful in skirmishes, but it craps out in the middle of 5v5 fights. And due to the nature of his remake, Kog without his W up really isn't worth that much to his team. Basically, I'm hoping that Riot will buff Kog in a way that will allow his fans on Rift to play him without feeling bad while at the same time leaving his power on Dominion more or less the same. Improvements to his W duration would be the safest way to accomplish this.

How many normal games do you have with kog'maw.

Several thousand.

People just say anything on these boards.

The purpose of this topic is to generate discussion. It seems to be working.

arcinex1 votes

Kog'Maw definitely does not have a passive that makes him different from other marksmen nope. Definitely not the only marksman to blow up after death to deal AoE true damage.

Definitely not.

Kappa2strong

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Kog'Maw definitely does not have a passive that makes him different from other marksmen nope. Definitely not the only marksman to blow up after death to deal AoE true damage.

Definitely not.

Kappa2strong

His passive being unique (or even working well and allowing him to trade 1 for 1 early) isn't really my point here. It serves it purpose, yes.

But when Kog was remade, Riot set out to focus his niche in on his long range machine gun aspect. His other niches (poke and tank-busting) were weakened to serve that singular fantasy, but his Passive wasn't changed largely because other ADCs were a higher priority for sweeping alterations. Kog has trouble filling his niche right now. Thus, it seems reasonable to remove the last part of his kit that doesn't align with this niche and give him a new tool to allow him to succeed.

arcinex1 votes

I find his current passive very good. Many time I have had champions dive on me so I quickly try to burst them down only to lose out by a one or two hundred health and then I kill them with my passive. I've actually had a fair share of double kills from Kog's passive.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

I find his current passive very good. Many time I have had champions dive on me so I quickly try to burst them down only to lose out by a one or two hundred health and then I kill them with my passive. I've actually had a fair share of double kills from Kog's passive.

'I got a triple kill with my passive once.'

I'll say again, it is a very good Passive. It's practically a second Ult in terms of raw power.

However, at this point I think giving Kog a Passive that supports his niche and unique play style would be better for him. Being able to build AD and Crit on Kog without feeling iffy about it would improve his performance doing what he's supposed to do. High single target sustained damage.

arcinex1 votes

His passive is fine as is.

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