Why Have Blitzcrank, Braum, and Janna Been Nerfed but Thresh Hasn't?

Flash to KS·Sep 2, 2015·109 votes·6,267 views

has a higher pick rate than the three of them both in professional play and in solo queue, yet they all get nerfed while he remains untouched? I honestly have no idea what the rationale behind that is. If the game is balanced around professional play, then Thresh should have been nerfed first since he has the highest professional pick rate. If the game is balanced around solo queue, then the same still applies because he is not just the most picked support in solo queue but also the second most picked champion in the whole game.

So, why hasn't Thresh been nerfed yet? And if he is considered balanced and not in need of nerfs, then why have those other supports been nerfed even though they are not better picks than him in most situations both in professional play and elsewhere?

116 Comments

Crowe StalkerSep 2, 201555 votes

LC$ Big Plays, you can't have them without Thresh and Madlife.

Everyone knows the problem with Thresh isn't that he's overpowered numerically, but his kit just gives him too much stuff. He'd need a Rework to Balance him, but so long as CertainlyT is on Riot that will never happen.

LoLKiruSep 2, 201540 votes

{quoted}

LC$ Big Plays, you can't have them without and Madlife.

Everyone knows the problem with Thresh isn't that he's overpowered numerically, but his kit just gives him too much stuff. He'd need a Rework to Balance him, but so long as CertainlyT is on Riot that will never happen.

This, thresh could do literally 0 damage, and he'd still be absurdly good.

ks916Sep 2, 20159 votes

Well they can take away some extra power from thresh. For example nerf the part of his Q that refunds 3 seconds cd if he lands a hook (I wold be ok if they changed it so he only gets the refund if he lands it on a champion not a minion). You nerf the slow from flay, and keep only the knockback. Also thresh with 40% cdr has pretty low cds on Q and flay maybe up the cds. Not much but small things.

Celeste BenalSep 3, 20152 votes

He gets a CD refund when he lands a successful hook? ugh thats not necessary. Should be removed. Slow on flay. Ugh remove.

iainB85Sep 3, 20155 votes

Thresh could only have two abilities: Hook and Lantern, and he'd still be absurdly good. His ultimate and E could completely go away and he'd still be a strong support (and those are strong abilities in their own right). That should tell you something right there.

AmazingGoatSep 3, 20159 votes

This isn't even remotely true, and just shows that you don't understand why Thresh is good. Thresh's flay is arguably even better than his hook, but the two combined are what really makes his kit so nice for play making.

OyddAWqJ5rSep 3, 20152 votes

And his ult has the ability to single handedly deter many engagements or make them impossible to win for certain teams. All for just pressing R in the middle of the lane.

AuryielSep 3, 20152 votes

The hyperbole police is coming to arrest you

Rew711Sep 2, 201510 votes

Have you not seen CertainlyT? He just did a supposed nerf to Mordekaiser that increased his W damage from early to late by even raising the %AP damage to 90 instead of 60 and giving larger based stats and secondary stats (all because he raised the health he used to activate the spell?) Zac can't even get a buff on his E without them compensating it. Raised the length? Raises time too.

Tannhäuser GateSep 2, 20151 votes

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I dont think CT does balance, he just creates the kits. I dont even think he gives the numbers when he creates or reworks champs

Rew711Sep 2, 20157 votes

My bubble is still intact. In a discussion on Morde, he says:

My job is to balance the competing interests of all 10 players in the game. It's also to keep the game dynamic.

Quoted from this here link.

Sassmast3rSep 2, 20153 votes

Exactly what I was thinking, his statistic aren't the issue, it's his actual kit. The biggest issue however, if the fact that it's beyond thematically cohesive; from a non players standpoint, it looks like perfection. It's just, when people have mastered this champions kit and take advantage of all of it's mechanics, they begin to realize that there honestly isn't any reason to use any other supports except for maybe Janna? And possibly Leona if you're looking at a kill lane, even though that also seems to be a relatively dangerous pick in the LCS.

Subject 5Sep 3, 201520 votes

Let me explain the balancing team and rework teams logic behind champions.

Sona "Wow thanks for my rework! Now I can do realistic amounts of damage with a pretty shitty heal and an AOE movespeed that is pretty much the worst in the game! I mean my Q does absolutely horrible damage by itself but with my passive, I can poke very well!"

summoner 1 "Yeah, so you know those AP ratio's that you have? Yeah we are taking those away and nerfing you for several patches. You aren't suppose to do damage, you are suppose to support."

Sona ". . . But you reworked me around everything you don't want me to do!"

Janna "I am a passive support, I am very good at disengage and can prevent harassment like Sona while also giving combat abilities. I am usually picked to prevent my adc for being blown up with my ult and sustain if my team really needs it, though I am not the first option for sustain because of my long CDR. My Q is used primarily as reactive, that means I don't wait 5 hours to let my Q charge. My kit isn't overloaded at all, my skill cap is based on the games skill cap. Thinking, thought patterns and problem solving.

summoner 1 "Yeah, so we don't like the fact that you are acting like a backline support. Backline supports aren't fun and you aren't hard at all to play honestly. You literally have a shield, a slow and a knockup, that is bull shit. I mean, who cares of thresh has two of those in one ability and the other ability does just about everything else that you do but with better stats? So we will be nerfing you for basically no reason other than the following: You take no "Skill" and you are "Passive."

Janna "B-but you designed me without any combat capabilities! Why would I ever be in the front line- My playerbase goes in to poke with my shield every now and agai-"

summoner 1 "Silence! Annie is OP with her hidden attack range!"

Lulu "I used to be picked in other lanes as well as support because my kit allowed me to do so. But Riot wanted me to support more because they like shoving the meta down peoples throats faster and stronger than a bull on mating Monday. But that is a thing in the past, because Riot is nerfing all of my support skills and leaving all of the skills that actually made me lane and a strong pick. To think that you could have just removed my wave clear by giving me a Q that touches 2 targets to prevent like 10 patches of nerfs. Oh well!"

summoner 1 ". . ."

Thresh "I can do everything besides sustain. I also scale infinitely and can play both passive, aggressive, reactive, and proactive as well as having an overloaded kit that can do more than Janna, Sona and Karma combined. I am such a good champion design for having everything in the game, I can't think of any reason why people would think that I deserve a nerf. Must be that people have thumbs up their batoots looking up win rates and pick rates. Good thing my win rate is like 2 percent below the "Forum classification of OP" Level!"

summoner 1 ". . ."

Veigar "They said that I needed counterplay."

Annie "U wot m8? Scrub."

summoner 1 "Uh . . ."

TNHA BaritoneSep 4, 20151 votes

I wish I could give you a skin or something. Damn you need to add me in game. I like you

Moulin RougeSep 2, 201517 votes

Blitz needs a rework

But as for Janna and Braum:

They are defensive supports that don't usually make plays they protect their carries. That's all that is. They-Don't-Make-Plays.

magic poleSep 2, 20156 votes

flash monsoon nub a o e

insec

Flash to KSSep 2, 20153 votes

Why do you think Blitz needs a rework?

Moulin RougeSep 2, 201519 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wandering Archer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=73EbvsHW,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-09-02T19:50:38.515+0000)

Why do you think Blitz needs a rework?

Because he's too binary.

Have you ever played with a terrible blitzcrank on your team? Have you ever ADC'd with one? If you did, have you ever noticed how frustrating the lane becomes when he doesn't pull anyone (or pulls the leona/ali/amumu..etc) ? Almost like a 2 vs 1?

Then there's this question:

Have you ever played against a really good blitzcrank? How you're almost zoned everywhere you walk?

That's the problem. He either uses his pull or he's useless. What kind of character design is that??? There's no out-play potential he either offers your team a free kill or he becomes a walking pile of pixels...and at best a meat shield distraction where hopefully the enemies are so stupid they prefer to hit said meatshield who really doesn't do anything else instead of the squishy.

Riot prides them selves on making fun to play, fun to play with and fun to play against champions. A good blitzcrank is not fun to play against and is only fun for the lucky team a bad blitzcrank is a drag to play with since he offers nothing else...hell, he's almost a drag to play against since all he'll do when he misses and is punished is run away and escape with his mana shield+general tankiness.

That's why he needs a rework.

Truly PridefulSep 2, 20159 votes

I think part of Blitz's actual problem is that he wasn't originally meant to be a support. He was a bruiser or I guess what is now a fighter. If they were going to "rework" him as a support his ultimate would be the only thing that really needs a swap. His W sets up his other two abilities and Q into E or E into Q are both solid, but his R isn't an ability for a support aside from the .5 silence. Maybe his passive as well from a support standpoint, but it at least fits into his style of getting in the enemies' face.

alfavhunterSep 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wandering Archer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=73EbvsHW,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-09-02T19:50:38.515+0000)

Why do you think Blitz needs a rework?

He has to much of his "power" as a champion forced into his Q, wat they could do is make it like this

Q Magnet grab, passively causes all damage you deal to magnitude a target

Q is now targeted spell but loses 50% of its range, magnitized targets can be selected from twice the range

This change would let power be moved to other parts of his kit

For example

E could become a small dash that also empowers hit next AA

W could be changed to no longer have a slow on it and give more MS/AS

R could be turned into a .5 second stun instead of silence (or even a 1 second stun)

His base stats could also be increased with lower mana costs, resulting in him being able to be more than a support

The one real problem with blitz is he has to much of his power as a champion invested into his Q

TNHA BaritoneSep 4, 20151 votes

did you just say dash? god.....

Jarrito232Sep 3, 20152 votes

I don't know if you've ever seen a successful Janna ult or Braum ult, but that is a fucking play if I've ever seen one. LCS players don't play champions because they are flashy. They pick champions that are best for the match.

snickerbarSep 2, 201512 votes

Why Have Blitzcrank, Braum, and Janna Been Nerfed but Thresh Hasn't?

Blitz W "nerf" was to abuse the braindead late-game where he's permanently buffed with movement speed, reason for quotations by the way is because the boost of speed on his W is better for people who actually use his W for something other than a permanent move speed buff due to the superior MS burst.
Janna nerfs are due to her reliability because of her stats complimenting her kit, passively healing people in teamfights with her ult and her Q being a post-engage tool just by double pressing Q were way too reliable and made her do everything a support needed. Movement speed? Heals? Reliable CC? Tank, maybe not but she can be untouchable at times.
Braum nerfs are because of his recent buffs going a bit too far while at the same time he started to become popular once Runeglaive Ez came in, so they backpedaled it once the hype around him began. Thinking about it, I think he's still better than he was 3 patches ago. Just take a look at the recent Braum nerfs on the PBE in comparison to his patch 5.12 buffs. They're only reverting the mana costs, but he still has a net buff overall because his Q damage is still high. Look for some reasoning before saying "Wow Riot is just nerfing champs because they're being played."

But, Thresh is currently not even a top contested pick in LCS or anything at all. Even Madlife or Bunny Fufuu don't try to take him, you know why? He's not OP enough to fit in every single team comp, and not OP where every team comp can work around him. ** Don't even get me started on his success in solo queue, especially in low elo. **

Therefore, Thresh doesn't need to be nerfed. He's already been nerfed way too much and any more wouldn't even do anything for him, or they would have to break his kit. Lantern can only shield one person, his Q doesn't affect his auto-attack damage anymore, his ultimate doesn't do damage following the first broken wall, his movement speed and attack speed were lowered to the point where he's inefficient to trade in lane unless someone else is being focused or he maxes E + takes AD runes. I can't name them all, and I feel like I'm being biased because I've played the champ for around 2-3 years now but there's a lot worse things out there at the moment imo. Also, not sure if you're aware, but Thresh used to been perma-ban status in Season 3 solo queue in all elos.

To answer this question by the way:

[{quoted}](name=Wandering Archer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=73EbvsHW,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-09-02T19:01:39.279+0000) So, why hasn't Thresh been nerfed yet? And if he is considered balanced and not in need of nerfs, then why have those other supports been nerfed even though they are not better picks than him in most situations both professionally and elsewhere?

You can't define that Braum and Janna (not going to include Blitzcrank because his nerf was to prevent brain-dead gameplay) were better picks than Thresh. They're both reliable and provide tank and utility respectively. They're both made for disengage while Thresh is made for more engage and teamfight progression. It's comparing apples and oranges. And "why hasn't [Thresh] been nerfed yet?" is fairly ironic because that's the same thing as someone saying "why hasn't Lee Sin been nerfed yet?". They were both extremely OP in the past and now their success is reliant on people knowing how to use their kits, so they've both received one or two quality of life buffs as of lately to make sure the people who have difficulty with their kits can still keep up to par.

YormaughmSep 2, 201512 votes

Honestly I feel like the only nerf Thresh needs is a range reduction on his lantern. Not necessarily a huge one, but something would be nice.

I'm absolutely floored even now sometimes when I see how far away a max range lantern can be, and if the champ who gets pulled has disengage/mobility of their own? Forget it. They could go from almost dead to standing still for 8 seconds recalling because it would actually take that long for the people who were fighting a second ago to catch up.

And if it's Kalista it's just stupid. Thresh lantern's Kalista, Kalista ults Thresh and even Caitlyn, Officer Vi and Riot Blitzcrank are helpless cause Bonnie and Clyde just crossed the state line and are officially out of their jurisdiction.

Remlap1223Sep 3, 20156 votes

{quoted} And if it's Kalista it's just stupid. Thresh lantern's Kalista, Kalista ults Thresh and even Caitlyn, Officer Vi and Riot Blitzcrank are helpless cause Bonnie and Clyde just crossed the state line and are officially out of their jurisdiction.

Upvoted just for that. I laughed heartily. Well memed my friend.

djjomonSep 2, 201510 votes

Thresh has been nerfed. Just not in a long time

Moulin RougeSep 2, 201511 votes

{quoted}

Thresh has been nerfed. Just not in a long time

OMG if you mean that love tap he got some time ago just to make us shut up, then that doesn't really count.

djjomonSep 2, 201515 votes

"Thresh needs to be nerfed like other supports" "It's happened before" "Shut up that doesn't count"

He's been nerfed before that too. "Shut up that doesn't count"

Your negativity is not only appreciated, but an honest, meaningful contribution to our community.

Angry MonsterSep 2, 20156 votes

you edited his comment or are quoting him out of context. He said he was token nerf so riot could basicly say to shut up. Not for you to shut up.

It is perfectly fair to feel that a nerf was not done correctly.

djjomonSep 2, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Moulin RougeSep 2, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Actually, he edited his comment since I posted. It previously said something like "OMG if you mean that love tap he got some time ago that doesn't really count. just shut up." Nice try

What? Are you talking about. I never edited that comment. And I never told you to shut up because that would be out of character for me. :P

Now, you're either crazy or you're looking for an argument over something that didn't even happen. xD

PartholonianSep 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=73EbvsHW,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-02T20:15:07.563+0000)

It is perfectly fair to feel that a nerf was not done correctly.

Sure, but when you're talking about a champion that literally loses more than he wins, I think people are justified in demanding evidence that he wasn't nerfed hard enough.

"People still pick him" isn't proof he wasn't nerfed hard enough, it's just proof he wasn't Olaf'd. Oh, I guess I can't call it that anymore since Olaf is back. Poppy'd?

Unless, of course, you hate him so much you think that making him totally unplayable is the only nerf big enough to satisfy you; but then why should Riot listen to someone so obviously biased?

TNHA BaritoneSep 4, 20151 votes

He loses more than he wins because a lot of people pick him...duh

ARequestOfDeathSep 2, 20152 votes

the last nerf he really recieved was the only one person gets shielded and a larger hitbox

WolfChasesSep 2, 20158 votes

Idk, I am maybe retarded but even after a 3 years of playing League I still hate Blitzcrank more than Thresh because:

That moment when stands in bush near your tower waiting to pull the crap out of you is devastating, especially when you are desperately trying to ward that bush but you can't because there aren't minions to cover your ass.

Krys StarSep 2, 20154 votes

Can't nerf the token support, especially with Championship Kalista coming out to match Championship Thresh. Riot will never nerf Thresh. They will never rework him. They'll continue to allow him to outclass every support by being able to do all of their jobs in one kit.

SulghunterSep 2, 20151 votes

He has no healing abilities.

Krys StarSep 2, 20154 votes

That's it. Just one aspect he can't do, although he KIND OF CAN if you consider Relic being able to heal. But it's barely noticeable so.

3TWarriorSep 3, 20152 votes

it's not even that if he's given time. once it gets to face(which should be around level 8 or 9), he has the potential to heal for several hundred damage by killing 4 minions, something easily achieved with the help of the ADC

MysteriousBootieSep 3, 20154 votes

Thresh is balance though

Silents429Sep 2, 20153 votes

Because hating a popular champion doesn't mean they are overpowered.

Thresh brings a jack of all trades in regards to CC and that is all he brings.

Janna has great peel and an AOE heal.

Braum also having great peel, is strong with aggressive champions thanks to his passive, and his shield blocks projectiles of all sorts.

Really Braum and Janna bring things to the table Thresh can't even do.

Blitzcrank is an anti fun champion, and no one wants to see him with a 40% pick rate.

The more I think into it the more unique thresh becomes when compared to the other champions, he is picked for having a lot of utility, but he also works with every ADC better then other supports do leaving to just be a great pick.

Now if they nerfed him it would change nothing unless they take away parts of his utility which isn't fair.

VoidbringersSep 2, 20153 votes

Thresh will never be balanced until they rework his lantern ability: the versatility and power in this ability alone makes up some champions' entire kits. The problem is that his lantern has become such an iconic part of his identity. He wouldn't really need it to still be played; I mean, look at all the utility he offers:

99% enemy team wide slow, if done correctly. Splits up teamfights but can also offer peel.
Blitz grab that can set-up previously mentioned 99% slow
Lantern that is a shield and also offers extreme utility
Hidden AD passive?!?! Why.
Another slowing ability that can also interrupt enemy dashes/gap closers

Soda PopkillskiSep 3, 20153 votes

Blitz nerfs? What?

CrazedPorcupineSep 3, 20152 votes

Because no matter what they nerf about thresh, it won't change how amazingly useful he is.

Viable nerfs however ARE: Shorter lantern duration (less time for allies to grab it) Shorter stun duration: Less time for thresh to pull himself to enemies Lower Box Duration: the Box stays up for less time.

sunxnesSep 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Because no matter what they nerf about thresh, it won't change how amazingly useful he is.

Viable nerfs however ARE: Shorter lantern duration (less time for allies to grab it) Shorter stun duration: Less time for thresh to pull himself to enemies Lower Box Duration: the Box stays up for less time.

Are you kidding me? the box already has a low duration.

AmazingGoatSep 3, 20152 votes

Thresh's win rate is mediocre, and he has a much higher skill floor. It actually isn't that complicated.

youngjake93Sep 3, 20152 votes

Why the heck would you ever balance around pick rate? Thresh has such an unimpressive win rate of 44% for people new to him and a mediocre win rate of 51% for Thresh experts. Thresh feels empowering to play because you have so many options in every scenario. You have a high capacity to outplay. But that's also why he is honestly kind of a weak champion. Because there are so many options, no one ever picks the best option every time. It's not possible. You can have 125 games as Thresh and sit at a 51% win rate because even with that much experience, you still are not a super computer playing perfectly to his play pattern.

I don't know why anyone would think "wow Thresh is so OP." When people picking him up only win 44% of the time.

Compare this to Vayne. New Vayne users win 50.1% of their games. You can literally have zero Vayne experience and win more than half. 125 games of experience results in a 54% win rate which is very favorable.

Compare this to Nidalee. Nidalee only wins 44% if the player is new to Nidalee. However, 125 games in she wins 54% of the time.

Heck, compare it to Annie who has a 9.3% play rate. She has a 51% win rate for newbies and a 57% win rate for 125 gamers.

Thresh is actually relatively weak. He is just popular.

Hullabaloo907Sep 3, 20151 votes

plus he is the squishiest tank support. nobody ever mentions that.