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Why isn't the Zhonya's effect a Summoner Spell? There's no AD equivalent and every mage uses it.

404 Terror·Jan 28, 2015·4 votes·1,810 views

Seriously, everyone is complaining about DFG getting removed, but the item is not nearly as integral as Zhonya's. I honestly didn't even see DFG in most of my matches this past season, but Zhonya's?? EVERY. SINGLE. MATCH. Something needs to be done with Zhonya's Hourglass. The item is literally used by every mage in the game. And where, I ask, is the AD equivalent? There isn't one. What I'm proposing is Zhonya's Hourglass be removed from the game and the effect should become a Summon Spell (with the same cooldown). Because let's be honest, when people are rushing Zhonya's (yeah, the armor's nice.. the damage is nice..), people really only care about the active effect.

I am speaking for and against Zhonya's Hourglass. It is a great item; however, when every caster in the game is purchasing it solely for the on-use effect, it takes away from itemization and variety and just leaves the game feeling hollow and boring.

No item should be "required" during gameplay. If it has that much impact and is that far ingrained in the meta world, it's time for a change.

17 Comments

LigerzzJan 28, 20154 votes

Changing it into a summoner spell isn't balanced at all. Zed will lose his ability to destroy targets in seconds, or every other assassin. Junglers will have to think very hard about their second summoner spell. Will they choose temporary invulnerability, extra mobility, or ignite? ADC's literally just have to pop it if they get focused, but still might end up dying after it has worn off. I don't really know about supports, but most of all, mages will not have a UNIQUE item available in their arsenal (unless zhonyas is an item and summoner spell). DFG was only used to increase the burst damage on a single target. Mages need it more to prolong their time in the fight as they are normally focused first along with the ADC. But the ADC has protection with them, another champion.

Imagine karthus channeling his ult to get a penta on 5 low health enemies. 1... 2... 3... PENT!!! Oh wait, they all used zhonyas.

item 3070 Karthus "Well fuck all of you!!!!"

Ganja PiratesJan 28, 20152 votes

No item should be "required" during gameplay. If it has that much impact and is that far ingrained in the meta world, it's time for a change.

I was totally against you until the end.

INTER5TELLARJan 28, 20152 votes

It isn't required, by any means. Some mages don't build it as early as others. If you really wanted to change it, the only thing I would do is make the active a passive that triggers when a character reaches X% hp or something.

I don't play mages all that often and I think it's perfectly okay. In most cases, people pop the active, you stand around for a few seconds and end up killing them anyway.

Bronze ProphetJan 28, 20152 votes

Last thing we need is for OP LeeSin to have a free item 3157

coppinslingerJan 28, 20152 votes

It doesn't make sense for AD champions to have the equivalent of Zhonya's. Here's why:

ADCs need to auto-attack to deal damage. The invulnerability also prevents you from auto-ing which is counter-intuitive. AP champs can zhonya's while they wait for CDs, the synergy is much better.
ADCs deal the most damage in the game late. If they all have a get-out-of-jail-free card, then that would reduce counter-play. Teams NEED a way to target the enemy damage. If they can't punish enemy mistakes in positioning, then teamfight strategies suddenly become less interesting and interactive and more about "Whose ADC can kill everyone else on the enemy team first?"

Serenity NowJan 28, 20152 votes

Guardian Angel is the ADC equivalent, just in a bit different package.

However, I do think replacing both with a summoner spell is an interesting proposition. It may compete with Flash for dominance.

StarlighteJan 28, 20152 votes

AD's are consistent AA based sources of damage. Mages are burst and rotational sources of damage.

Stop comparing the two and their item sets like they're actually relevant to one another. AP mains don't bitch about how they have no real access to spell vamp and constantly as AD's bitch about Zhonya's active. ADCs can pump out damage not only through their abilities, but through their AA's as well. (Keep in mind even if an ADC doesn't have AD scaling on all their abilities (Looking at you Tristana) they can still be relevant because their AA scales off of AD)

Zhonya's doesn't actually help AD-oriented champions in most situations. If it did, then lifesteal would no longer be a relevant stat for them. AD's use lifesteal to survive bursts (amongst other items) and AP's use Zhonya's to survive bursts or to wait for CD's to be up because as noted before, AP's are entirely reliant on their abilities.

Kindly take your ideas elsewhere because quite honestly, you haven't the slightest clue about balancing and it shows.

hello im apdoJan 28, 20152 votes

I haven't seen a more retarded post till now. Congrats

Blazing TenshiJan 28, 20152 votes

Remove hourglass and now we only have 1 item that builds out of NLR. GG ADCs have like 5 that build out of BF sword.

Moulin RougeJan 28, 20152 votes

Sooo now Zhonyas is the next target. Called it.

404 TerrorJan 28, 20151 votes

Let me clarify: Zhonya's Hourglass is easy to play with and easy to play against. I love the item, BUT it's not right that it's purchased every match by any and all mages. By changing it to a Summoner Spell, they add more versatility in Champ Select while also increasing itemization versatility in matches.

The item certainly isn't broken; it just sees too much play in matches to not consider it "boring meta fodder".

ChessburgerJan 28, 20151 votes

It's not built every game. In most games where there isn't a huge ad threat in the form of an assassin or fed bruiser, mages usually build a mana regen cdr item,followed by rabadon, void next, only then do they usually build zhonya. Most build armguard out of necessity because being squishy to the jungler who in this meta is usually ad and being paper to an adc is bad. There's deviations. Some mages have to build more mana/regen, some go rylai... ETC but zhonya is never 2nd item unless there's a huge AD in your face threat on the enemy team. And on that note if you count building it as a 5th item doesn't really mean much. Most games end before that point and if the game somehow lasts long enough you basically make a zhonya because it's the only other ap item that currently builds out of large rod and hence gives the largest bulk of ap avaliable in game.

p.s. Remembered lissandra builds it after morello + shoes every game but that's because of the nature of her kit having to dive in. Same with fizz, same with kassadin, same with kennen (who's not really relevant in the meta right now). Those are specific cases and they're not the stereotypical mages one refers to when using that title.

Mat7itanJan 28, 20151 votes

Maw of malmordias gives ad champs attack and defensive stats and a shield. Mercurial scimitar gives defensive stats, attack stats, and a cc removal to ad champs. The wholetime allowing them to continue fighting. Zhonya's gives ap champs offensive and defensive stats and invulnerability for a short time. Imobalizing and taking them out of the fight. Ad champs get more items with life steal that give much better stats than those few items that give spell vamp... So why do ad champs need something like zhonyas?

HadesHellfireJan 28, 20151 votes

yes, but adc's have lifesteal and that can keep them alive during fights. yes, mages have spellvamp, but spellvamp does virtually nothing unless its on someone like akali. so zhonyas doesnt need an ad counterpart

404 TerrorJan 28, 20151 votes

How about proposition 2: Make multiple item builds out of Zhonya's Hourglass, similar to the jungle items/Smites. If everyone is going to use Zhonya's Hourglass for the effect, why not have more variety with the item? Maybe have an option for MR instead of Armor or 10% CDR (since DFG was removed, there kind of needs to be another 10% CDR mage item, anyway).

This is theorycrafting, people.. Rebuttals are obviously welcome, but if you want to flame, take it elsewhere.

The only for-sure thing is Zhonya's Hourglass is much too meta and is only built for the active effect (I'm one of the few who purchases it because of the armor, because there aren't many +armor caster items). The other stats are just bonuses.

ChessburgerJan 28, 20151 votes

Zhonya's is primarily built for the armour. Because it has a convenient 1200 gold item that gives ap and armour and builds into it. Active is rushed only against assassins (they need counter play). When league of cleavers was around and zhonya still built out of chain vest + large rod.... Let's just say it was dark times indeed because you needed to rush a 700 something G item that only gave you the ability to not get 100-0'd by an ad assassin. Instead you got 100-20'ed and you couldn't do anything but back after that. The change was a godsend. You basically couldn't fight back. You couldn't poke them out of lane because you had no mana and no ap to be a threat to them while all they needed was to get in range of the gap closer once. Armguard gives you a chance to fight back while having some defensive stats on it to not get blown up. You still need a mana regen item so that takes priority over finishing zhonya and being useless after 4 spells.

Also you can't first item rush a zhonya anyway. You need a mana regen item on 99% of mages, so mostly you'd go for the 1.2k armour part of zhonya then morello/tear/insert mana item and only then finish zhonya. You have to invest 1200g into armguard, 2.3k in morello, 1.1k in boots to be effective vs an ad. That's 4.6k gold. That is a huge deal. And if you finish zhonya you've put 6.7k gold into your build to be semi effective through early/mid game and now have a reliable lategame. Meanwhile for every item you make the ad assassin does a more effective straight ad/pen item - let's say zed because he's the strongest at the moment - 1377 (IIRC) for brutalizer, 3200 for botrk (builds from an effective ad + lifesteal+ active slow + dmg item that costs 1400), 325 boots (doesn't need/profit from upgraded boots). = 4,9k gold. 300 more gold than the mage (the 300g doesn't do anything for a mage) and he can still delete him if he landed a Q and E or a double Q before going full in.

I'd say gameplay-wise zhonya is effectively balanced around the fact AD assassins/bruisers have access to strong items they can build straight up without having to delay their build needing to buy either mana or magic resist for that matter.

Edit: forgot to account for the need to buy 1 or 2 doran rings in the mage calculations... so yeah that's even further down the pocket compared to ad assassins who pretty much never buy doran blades and can rush straight into their core build.

AljonauAug 28, 20161 votes

Adding zhonyas-effect as a Summonerspell (maybe in a slightly different version just as cleanse differs from mercury) would not hurt balancing that much. As mentioned before you are not able to move during the effect, heal can help someone else too, exhaust shuts down a threat, ignite can secure a kill.

Zhonyas makes the fight 4v5 for a short time meanwhile saving one person.

I'd propose: "Fade away": zhonyas effect for 0.5 seconds, maybe some neat 2 seconds after-effect.

This makes the Summoner interesting for dodging Stuff like veigar/caitlyns/zed ult but you need timing for it and you are back fast.

What happens when its combined with Zhonyas? I'd propose a shared and lowered cooldown, so if you buy zhonyas you have your Fade-away Summoner on a shorter cooldown than before and you can choose between the two effects by activating it either over the itemslot or the summoner slot. So Mages still have their special thing with zhonyas while other squishies have access in matchups where they desperately need it.

Jungers will mostly continue going mobility+smite, because they need it for ganks and clear. Supports wont use it because they are not prime target and need all slots for helping the adc not for their own survival. toplanetanks wont use it because they dont need it and flash/teleport give so much more So its basically a situational adc/mage/asassin summoner with Mages and ap asassins having the option to improve it. Currently Riot does plan to change asassins from egoboosting domination-reliant oneshot onetrick ponies into something healthy so this summoner might actually not hurt them as much as some here seem to believe.

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