Annie's PBE Changes Are Great, But She Needs a New E

Teridax68··4 votes·1,852 views

As Riot is preparing AP assassins and burst mages for the removal of item 3128 , Annie is receiving buffs to her Molten Shield. Long story short, she gets 10 less armor and magic resistance from it (10/20/30/40/50 instead of 20/30/40/50/60) , but applies it to Tibbers whenever she casts it, giving her pet a short decaying movement speed boost in the process. This is a fantastic change, and one that adds both more depth to her E (it's not just there to build up passive stacks!) and to her ultimate beyond just its massive nuke. However, I think these changes need to go deeper, and Annie could probably do with a new E altogether, for the following reasons:

  • Annie isn't well-suited for a tankiness steroid or damage reflection: As a fairly close-ranged burst mage, one of Annie's biggest weaknesses is her own squishiness: she's not meant to take damage, rather, she tries to avoid it altogether by staying far back and using her stun to close in or defend herself if she gets attacked, and when she does get caught she's meant to die fairly quickly. Not only is an armor/MR steroid and pseudo-item 3075 effect on her not particularly visibly appreciable (even though it does make her a fair bit tankier for a short while), it also runs contrary to her intended weakness, role and playstyle ("Why does a squishy mage child have Rammus 's Defensive Ball Curl?").
  • Molten Shield confuses incentives on both her and potentially Tibbers: Annie is a massive threat when her cooldowns are up, especially when she also has her stun available. Taking her out is a priority in most fights, because otherwise she can quickly delete VIPs on the other team and lay down potentially massive amounts of crowd control via her passive and ultimate. However, her Molten Shield goes against that by deterring focus ("I take less damage and trying to kill me will damage you"), when hard focus is meant to be one of the clearest ways of outplaying her, along with baiting her stun and cooldowns. Tibbers sort of runs along similar lines: as a big flaming bear, the clearest way to deal with him is to get out of his range and poke him from far away. While extra resistances and damage reflection would synergize better on him than on Annie, it also risks confusing incentives in the same way ("I'm out of Tibbers's aura range, why am I still taking damage from him? If I damage myself when trying to kill him, how do I deal with him or Annie?").

Here are features Annie could do with instead (Note: these don't necessarily have to all be included as all part of the same ability, though that is a possibility):

  • A short decaying movespeed boost: The temporary speed buff Tibbers is getting on the PBE looks like a fantastic idea, as the big ol' bear tends to be a little slow, and has trouble catching up to most targets. On the other hand, giving him too much sticking power would also make him inescapable, so a temporary buff would let him chase a little better for short windows of time. I also think this could also be worth looking into on Annie herself: as a squishy immobile initiator, she is so heavily dependent on summoner 4 and occasionally item 3117 that she often can't function without that mobility. Giving her access to a momentary burst of speed would relax her extreme reliance on external sources of mobility, and could give her E more depth ("should I use this to initiate, or should I save it for an escape in case things go south?").
  • An autoattack steroid: One of Annie's most important features in lane is her autoattack harass. Back when her bases were higher and her ratios lower, high-level players occasionally picked item 1055 on her because of how much control it gave her over her shorter-ranged opponents. I think this should be emphasized by having her E buff her own autoattacks, instead of damaging enemies who autoattack her: not only would this better initiate new players to her harass pattern in lane, which is critical to making the most of her power, it would also give her opponents a clear indication to back off momentarily. It would also synergize with Tibbers himself, and would make his own autoattacks more important when trying to micromanage him.
  • Free ally-targeted casting: With Molten Shield soon applying on Tibbers, I think it would be a good transition into allowing Annie to cast her E on allies in general (perhaps even lane minions). It would add a good degree of versatility and diversity to her kit, something she kinda lacks right now (she's mostly all about blasting targets in a couple of seconds), and would also cater to her Support Annie playstyle, which has been made pretty healthy following its huge burst of popularity in early Season 4. An autoattack steroid and/or a short movement speed boost would both be dream bonuses on any marksman, and even her current Molten Shield would be a great buff to allied tanks.

TL;DR: I think an offensively-oriented steroid would be better adapted for Annie than her current defense/damage reflection buff, as it would better fit her playstyle and make the ability more interesting for herself beyond just providing a cheap stack of Pyromania. Here's an example of what I think could be her new E (the numbers aren't as important as the effects, obviously):

E - Spontaneous Combustion: Annie ignites an ally or herself, causing the target's basic attacks within the next 5 seconds to deal 10/20/30/40/50 (+ 20% AP) bonus magic damage and increasing their movement speed by 20/40/60/80/100%, decaying over 1 second. Costs 20 mana, and has 10-second cooldown.

What do you think? Do you agree with this new E, or do you prefer Molten Shield? Which parts of Molten Shield or this E would you like to have on Annie, and if you wanted her E to change, how would you go about doing it?

39 Comments

Dances3 votes

...your logic hurts man

so your saying a SHORT RANGE MAGE is meant to stand far back? I've never heard annie is meant to die quickly when caught,more that your not supposed to let her get close I don't see her intended playstyle as anything like you seem to molten shield allows her to survive walking up to the enemy team,something she needs without any form of gapclose its also mostly ignored by enemies because she's a value target but its buffs are what lets her survive being that target

basically every time you open your mouth you say something about her playstyle and basically want to remove her ways of compensating for her vulnerabilities and instead buff something that's already good or will change her playstyle

and if you reduce her nukes and give her an auto steroid I figure your going to run into a apc/auto based champion using attack speed,ap scaling and magic pen for sustained magic dps

Blazing Tenshi1 votes

{quoted}

...your logic hurts man

so your saying a SHORT RANGE MAGE is meant to stand far back? I've never heard annie is meant to die quickly when caught,more that your not supposed to let her get close I don't see her intended playstyle as anything like you seem to molten shield allows her to survive walking up to the enemy team,something she needs without any form of gapclose its also mostly ignored by enemies because she's a value target but its buffs are what lets her survive being that target

Exactly why I don't like that they removed 10 mr/armor from her e at rank 1. Her e loses half it's effectiveness until she starts maxing it at like lv 13, ~+10% magic reduction down to ~+5%.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

...your logic hurts man

so your saying a SHORT RANGE MAGE is meant to stand far back?

Perhaps I didn't formulate that in the best way, but yes. Even the shortest-ranged mage has more reach than the longest-ranged melee assassin. Annie is not a frontliner.

{quoted}

I've never heard annie is meant to die quickly when caught,more that your not supposed to let her get close

Those statements don't necessarily contradict each other. You're not supposed to let Annie get close when she's ready to pop you, but if she gets caught she's going to die about as quickly as your average mage, so pretty fast. Even with her Molten Shield up, Annie can't really afford to take a hit.

{quoted}

molten shield allows her to survive walking up to the enemy team,something she needs without any form of gapclose its also mostly ignored by enemies because she's a value target but its buffs are what lets her survive being that target

But that's my point: when initiating, Annie's main concern is reaching her target before she gets focused, not absorbing focus as she initiates, whereas her opponents' main concern is focusing her before she unleashes teddy bear hell. Annie doesn't want to get hit in the first place, which is why Molten Shield isn't the best fit for her, but she does want to move very quickly for at least an instant in order to ult.

{quoted}

basically every time you open your mouth you say something about her playstyle and basically want to remove her ways of compensating for her vulnerabilities and instead buff something that's already good or will change her playstyle

I think it's important to know which weaknesses need compensation, and how one would go about compensating for them. One of Annie's weaknesses is squishiness, and that I think is something she should try covering via itemization and the like (extreme squishiness doesn't prevent Annie from doing Annie things). Another of Annie's weaknesses is an inability to position herself quickly enough to land an ideal ultimate: right now, aside from Boots of Mobility, the only way Annie can paper over this is with Flash, to the point where she cannot function properly without the spell. Extreme dependence on an item or summoner spell isn't good for champions, and is one of the main reasons why DFG is getting removed and item 3100 got nerfed a while back.

{quoted}

and if you reduce her nukes and give her an auto steroid I figure your going to run into a apc/auto based champion using attack speed,ap scaling and magic pen for sustained magic dps

I don't see anything immediately wrong with Annie somehow turning into a harder-scaling APC, but I also don't really think Annie needs to have her nukes nerfed. Reducing her burst is just one of the many ways you could nerf Annie, and unless it's her burst that's a problem (which might be, depending on who you ask), that may not be what you'd want to nerf. You could nerf her base autoattacks, for example, which would put her laning harass under tighter control. In fact, she may not even need any nerfs: Molten Shield already damages enemies, so it's not like I'm adding damage on top of her kit that she doesn't already have. It's sort of telling that a proposal to shift Annie's E damage into an offensive bonus, rather than a defensive buff, raises calls for nerfs to her total damage, because it says that the people making those calls don't expect Annie to put Molten Shield's damage to full use in the first place.

Dances2 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps I didn't formulate that in the best way, but yes. Even the shortest-ranged mage has more reach than the longest-ranged melee assassin. Annie is not a frontliner.

Those statements don't necessarily contradict each other. You're not supposed to let Annie get close when she's ready to pop you, but if she gets caught she's going to die about as quickly as your average mage, so pretty fast. Even with her Molten Shield up, Annie can't really afford to take a hit.

But that's my point: when initiating, Annie's main concern is reaching her target before she gets focused, not absorbing focus as she initiates, whereas her opponents' main concern is focusing her before she unleashes teddy bear hell. Annie doesn't want to get hit in the first place, which is why Molten Shield isn't the best fit for her, but she does want to move very quickly for at least an instant in order to ult.

I think it's important to know which weaknesses need compensation, and how one would go about compensating for them. One of Annie's weaknesses is squishiness, and that I think is something she should try covering via itemization and the like (extreme squishiness doesn't prevent Annie from doing Annie things). Another of Annie's weaknesses is an inability to position herself quickly enough to land an ideal ultimate: right now, aside from Boots of Mobility, the only way Annie can paper over this is with Flash, to the point where she cannot function properly without the spell. Extreme dependence on an item or summoner spell isn't good for champions, and is one of the main reasons why DFG is getting removed and item 3100 got nerfed a while back.

I don't see anything immediately wrong with Annie somehow turning into a harder-scaling APC, but I also don't really think Annie needs to have her nukes nerfed. Reducing her burst is just one of the many ways you could nerf Annie, and unless it's her burst that's a problem (which might be, depending on who you ask), that may not be what you'd want to nerf. You could nerf her base autoattacks, for example, which would put her laning harass under tighter control. In fact, she may not even need any nerfs: Molten Shield already damages enemies, so it's not like I'm adding damage on top of her kit that she doesn't already have. It's sort of telling that a proposal to shift Annie's E damage into an offensive bonus, rather than a defensive buff, raises calls for nerfs to her total damage, because it says that the people making those calls don't expect Annie to put Molten Shield's damage to full use in the first place.

melee ranged assassins are not mages,and if you look,annie is actually often outranged by a champions poke/cc ability,espeacilly since her ult range nerf

much of the time I often see annie lasting much longer then another mage when you reach her,its her compensation for the fact that she is short ranged and vulnerable with a potentially difficult to fire stun (yes it can be charged and stay up forever,but you don't really want that,and when its down she has NO cc)

so in other words you want to take away her ability to survive their attention and replace it with a way to get in their range faster,because that's what it will work to do,you'll use your speed boost,try to get close and eat a firestorm before your in range,which then kills annie cause your removing her tankiness

and annie,isn't really squishy,her weakness is lack of range,lack of gap close,and a set period of strength and weakness,the reason she lacks gapclosers such as flash is her kit makes her almost impossible to battle if she's standing next to you without having to eat damage before hand,people depend on flash FOR EVERYTHING...something I have long pointed out is foolish and does nothing,why pick someone immobile and then take a spell to give them mobility when the guy with mobility is taking it to have more?forget mobility and ensure that anything that gets in your area of influence dies or is driven away,annie functions fine without flash,it just requires patience

harder scaling?...dude we are from such completely differnet views of annie it isn't even funny,scaling has nothing to do with it,its a complete rewrite of how she operates,from burst mage to ap adc,and your the one who brought up nerfing her nukes

Teridax681 votes

I brought up nerfing Annie's nukes as a possible way of making her healthier, if her burst turns out to be too strong. I think Annie's long autoattack range and heavy use of them in the laning phase justifies tying more of her power to them, and doing so would only emphasize her existing playstyle, not change it. I also think Annie would still be able to live longer if she wanted to, as she has the means of purchasing the defensive bonuses her Molten Shield currently gives her. Mobility, on the other hand, is much more difficult to access, and is much more important to Annie than tankiness: Flash is critical to Annie more than on practically any other champion because she needs it to initiate reliably, and otherwise cannot work to her full potential (walking up to her enemies at normal speed gets her focused, as you mentioned). Short spell ranges and vulnerability to focus are acceptable weaknesses, in my opinion, because they give Annie's enemies opportunities against her, but excessive dependence on a summoner spell isn't acceptable, because it just hinders Annie personally more than it adds outplay potential.

Blazing Tenshi3 votes

I think Annie having the ability to use Molten Shield on allies would be an amazing buff on it's own because of the team comp options it would give giving it the use of trying to protect a squishy teammate. Though maybe make it so that Tibbers only gets the Molten Shield if Annie uses Molten Shield on herself though to make it more of a decision.

I disagree with giving Annie a unconditional movement speed buff on her e because we shouldn't give her better initiation with how much burst she has. A conditional MS buff would be good though.

I would also rather have her e stay something defensive/utility because making it a damage spell would probably make it so that she loses damage on her actual damage spells.

Teridax681 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blazing Tenshi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6vyJKkBe,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-23T05:04:27.066+0000)

I disagree with giving Annie a unconditional movement speed buff on her e because we shouldn't give her better initiation with how much burst she has. A conditional MS buff would be good though.

I'd definitely be on board with a more tightly restricted movement speed buff as well. However, I think that if the problem with Annie is that she explicitly needs terrible mobility in order for her burst to not be unhealthy, it would probably be worth looking into her burst so that it can be made healthy all the time, or at least healthier. If that were true (and that's a possibility), then that would just mean Annie would be healthy, if not fully functional, for stretches of about five minutes before having access to extremely powerful (but unhealthy) initiation via Flash. It would likely be better for her to have occasional access to initiation within her own kit, which would allow her to be complete as a champion without a heavy reliance on another effect, but then present more ways of being outplayed in compensation, so she'd end up with more frequent and independent access to good initiation, but more weaknesses when she does initiate.

[{quoted}](name=Blazing Tenshi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6vyJKkBe,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-23T05:04:27.066+0000)

I would also rather have her e stay something defensive/utility because making it a damage spell would probably make it so that she loses damage on her actual damage spells.

Nerfing her nukes would be one way to nerf her damage, but I don't think that's the only way out there. In the case of an autoattack steroid, for example, you could just nerf her base AD and AD per level, which would also establish a clear distinction between unempowered Annie ("she can hit me from a mile away, but literally hits like a little girl"), and empowered Annie ("oh shit this girl is on FIRE, better run the other way"). In the best case scenario, though, she may not even need a nerf, since she already has damage on her E right now.

Blazing Tenshi2 votes

{quoted}

I'd definitely be on board with a more tightly restricted movement speed buff as well. However, I think that if the problem with Annie is that she explicitly needs terrible mobility in order for her burst to not be unhealthy, it would probably be worth looking into her burst so that it can be made healthy all the time, or at least healthier. If that were true (and that's a possibility), then that would just mean Annie would be healthy, if not fully functional, for stretches of about five minutes before having access to extremely powerful (but unhealthy) initiation via Flash. It would likely be better for her to have occasional access to initiation within her own kit, which would allow her to be complete as a champion without a heavy reliance on another effect, but then present more ways of being outplayed in compensation, so she'd end up with more frequent and independent access to good initiation, but more weaknesses when she does initiate.

TLDR: I don't think trading range and mobility for tons of damage is unhealthy, it's diversification and just a weakness that ideally would need to be overcome by a good team comp but flash exists so it is not ideal.

That really seems like just homogenizing mages into a class that has damage and cc but needs to have a reliable way to apply it in their kit, either through range or mobility. To me Annie is defined by tons of aoe damage with cc but hard to apply, she is the low range, no mobility, burst mage. Flash has its own problems with it giving all champs 1 time great mobility every 5 mins but without flash her only way to apply her damage is to ambush the enemy or take advantage of a chaotic clumpy team fight (baring extreme mistakes by the enemy like not respecting her short range). I feel like we don't have many other champs with kind of Identity and don't want to water it down but maybe it does have to be?

While she can do and already does well without an ally with great initiation to follow up, she plays best as follow up to a great initiator and is team fight oriented and I think it is alright for her to relay on teammates to help apply her damage as this is a team game and team comp is important.

As a side note, my favorite thing to do for fun as a fed Annie is to buy some wards and and upgraded sweeper and claim one side of the enemy jungle as mine and just sit in there until 1, 2, or even 3 of them decide to disrespect the benefits of my low range when that low range is overcome by vision.

Nerfing her nukes would be one way to nerf her damage, but I don't think that's the only way out there. In the case of an autoattack steroid, for example, you could just nerf her base AD and AD per level, which would also establish a clear distinction between unempowered Annie ("she can hit me from a mile away, but literally hits like a little girl"), and empowered Annie ("oh shit this girl is on FIRE, better run the other way"). In the best case scenario, though, she may not even need a nerf, since she already has damage on her E right now.

That would be cool especially if she could use it on allies for more a more supportish ability mid-late game where she wouldn't care so much about a AA enhancement but I still would rather have the selfish 60 armor/mr from her shield. It may seem like a tank like ability especially with the reflect damage but armor/mr is much more value when you have lower armor/mr making it invaluable against bruisers or anyone that survive your initial burst and you need to wait for Q to come back up. Just changing up the reflect damage would be my favorite option.

Teridax681 votes

I absolutely agree that the best kind of champion is a champion who can synergize really well with teammates and certain comps, instead of just being an island of self-sufficiency (a big problem with a lot of older bruisers), but I also think that every champion needs to have an autonomous enough kit that they should be at least functional on their own. Yasuo 's ultimate gives him great synergy with any displacement champion, for example, but he also has an inbuilt knockup that allows him to activate it alone. While Annie can still initiate and drop her bear on priority targets even without Flash, she depends on it so heavily that removing it would cripple her, to the point where she would rarely have an opportunity to ult her target without getting focused first. It's not so much part of her identity as it is a crutch to her kit. I also don't think that giving her a small movement speed boost would be homogenization, as not that many mages out there have access to mobility, let alone a movement speed increase.

While this may ultimately boil down to preference, I think a movement speed boost would be just as helpful to Annie as a resistance steroid, since she could use it at the right time to kite champions focusing her and reposition quickly in fights (Ahri is getting a similar effect on her Q in the PBE). While it's true that Annie is vulnerable to focus, especially to dive-heavy bruisers, I think that's something that should be emphasized and not mitigated: an Annie without Molten Shield would always die quickly when attacked by bruisers and assassins (a clear and constant weakness), but an Annie with a small movement speed boost would be able to outplay those opponents by repositioning or retreating in time for her cooldowns to come back up.

Raptamei1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blazing Tenshi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6vyJKkBe,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-23T05:04:27.066+0000)

I think Annie having the ability to use Molten Shield on allies would be an amazing buff on it's own because of the team comp options it would give giving it the use of trying to protect a squishy teammate.

It would completely invalidate Galio.

Blazing Tenshi1 votes

{quoted}

It would completely invalidate Galio.

So orianna and mordekaiser invalidate Galio? They all offer armor/mr to protect but also have a secondary effect. Orianna's gives psuedo-health, Galio's heals himself, Mordekaiser's does aoe damage, and Annie's threatens auto attackers. Plus I just want Rammus + thornmail + molten shield to exist to counter the right click kings even more.

Elphrihaim2 votes

I love that suggestion, I do.

I really like the fact that Annie has a defensive mechanic and it is extremely useful for clearing waves, but a targeted AA enhancer that has a speed boost on it would be just perfect to synergize with both support and mid Annie play.

I'd just add "Activating this ability [on any target] grants Tibbers increased Movement Speed + Tibbers is not able to be targeted by this ability" before calling it golden.

Teridax681 votes

I'd absolutely be down with that. I guess this is something we'll have to see post-5.2 with the changes to Molten Shield's functionality, but I'd be really interested in seeing how Annie casting her E will affect her Tibbers micromanagement. On one hand, having to choose between Tibbers or another target could be an interesting point of decision, but on the other having her bear benefit from the buff whenever it's cast could create much better synergy with her ultimate, and allow Annie to always be able to put Tibbers to full use.

Thank you for your feedback!

DanofDemacia1 votes

Ok so with ahri down the toilet annie is the only champion i actually enjoy. Im going to have to disagree with you, her e synergizing with tibbers doesnt add any depth to him, her, or them as a team. That being said your new idea for the e is fucking amazing. I was thinking about it myself how useless e is ouside of her stacks. The only concern i have is the ccoldown and mana cost. If the cd is to high or mana cost to high id stay with her current. While her e is only used for stacking it does a great job at it. It has saved all of us plenty of times.

Teridax681 votes

Thank you! As for the cost and cooldown, I kept then exactly the same as on Molten Shield (20 mana, 10 seconds). I don't think those really need any fiddling, at least not on something this brainstorm-y, and I agree with you that, even though E deserves to be more interesting beyond just providing stacks, it's still crucial in doing so fairly cheaply.

WhereTheNamesAt1 votes

ahhhh…Let's give one of the highest burst champs in the game, some more burst. GOOD IDEA!!!!!!!!!

Teridax681 votes

I don't really think an autoattack steroid really qualifies as "more burst". Yes, it would give Annie more control over her damage, and therefore likely more of it overall, but not necessarily in a bursty way. The example damage I listed is, at most, 15 more than the damage aura on Tibbers, for instance. If this leads to Annie dealing too much damage overall, I would rather she lose some of the power on her nukes, which have absolutely massive bases and ratios, than deprive her of an E she can make good use of beyond just providing passive stacks.

WhereTheNamesAt1 votes

To make it work they would have to significantly raise the cool down on her Q, having a flat 4 second cool down with 250 max base and 85% ap scaling is absurd. That's honestly why I hate Annie so much. If she's doesn't kill you with the full combo of R-W-Q, then most likely the 2nd Q will always kill you. I just don't think you can give a champ an auto attack damage modifier that already has 650 range and the possibility to all-in someone as soon as she hits level 6.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

To make it work they would have to significantly raise the cool down on her Q, having a flat 4 second cool down with 250 max base and 85% ap scaling is absurd. That's honestly why I hate Annie so much. If she's doesn't kill you with the full combo of R-W-Q, then most likely the 2nd Q will always kill you.

Annie's burst is already getting a significant nerf via the removal of Deathfire Grasp, which is why she's getting PBE buffs in the first place. If she needs further burst nerfs, that may be something to do in the future, but that's something I think we would have to wait to see post-5.2.

{quoted}

I just don't think you can give a champ an auto attack damage modifier that already has 650 range and the possibility to all-in someone as soon as she hits level 6.

It's actually because of her 625 autoattack range that I think Annie could benefit from a basic attack steroid: harassing with autoattacks is a critical part of Annie's laning playstyle, and so it would make sense to play to her strengths, rather than keep an ability that fits more on a tank than on a squishy mage. In fact, it may actually be a good reason to nerf her autoattacks by reducing her base AD and AD growth, so that she'd only be able to lay down significant harass for short periods using her E, rather than apply constant pressure with no cost or downtime.

Similarly, inbuilt mini-initiation capabilities could be reason enough to nerf Annie's base movement speed (she currently runs at 335 movement speed, and could be brought down to 325), so that she'd have a clearer distinction between her short bursts of movement and otherwise bottom-tier mobility. A great deal of champions have fantastic all-ins at level 6, and Annie is one of them, if only because she can dive with Flash regardless of whether or not she has a personal movement speed boost. A change like this would make her less dependent on that summoner spell, and open her up to healthier burst if needed.

WhereTheNamesAt2 votes

DFG helped Annie's burst a lot, but it was not necessary. I have seen Annie's with just a Rod of Ages completely obliterate my midlaner, and it wasn't even fully stacked.

Giving her a move speed boost allows her to just initiate without having to flash guaranteeing a kill on any immobile champion.

You DO NOT need to buff her auto attack harass so that the enemy mid is always at half health, where she can zone them and setup kills on them.

Everything you are proposing would make her way to overbearing in lane and then Riot will have to nerf her into an unplayable safe. If these were implemented a melee mid (Zed, Talon, Fizz, Diana) would never be able to touch Annie and would be GG at champ select.

Teridax681 votes

What you're suggesting is that Annie would be incredibly unhealthy if she could initiate without Flash, which means that her Flash-enabled initiates aren't entirely healthy in themselves. I'd personally prefer an Annie who has all the tools to initiate on her own, but always gives her opponents opportunities to outplay her, than an Annie who has to wait every five minutes for a guaranteed, unavoidable kill.

I also think it's not necessarily a bad thing to buff Annie's autoattack harass at the cost of her Molten Shield's situational tankiness, but if it does become overbearing there are a great deal many ways it can be solved. Nerfing her autoattacks' base damage, for example, would limit the majority of her harass to her E uptime, and would otherwise make her a lot less of a bully against shorter-ranged champions when her steroid's down. If her laning power is too strong, you could always nerf the early base damage on her spells and have them scale harder later on to compensate. If she becomes to difficult to focus, you could make her more vulnerable by reducing base stats like her movement speed, health, or armor. If it's the autoattack range itself that's a problem, reducing it would make her more approachable. I'm not trying to make Annie stronger in lane, or more of a bully, I just want to turn the power on her E into something she can appreciate better.

MasticatingGrill1 votes

I think you understand annie then. Flash dependent nuke is somewhat unhealthy, and without DFG perhaps they can make her slightly less flash dependent again like the old days. But you seem to understand her root as a gank resistant mid. At least her E is no longer 16 seconds up, with what a 30sec cooldown? And they nerfed the early game damage and now the early laning resists too.

But what do you think of the supposed Tibbers buff? Overall I am not much impressed yet. He still seems very slow moving, 3/4 second burst speed barely nets one extra auto attack...sometimes. I guess the extra E tankiness is nice tho such as when he tanks a turret or when he lives more than 1.7 seconds in a team fight (hello Smite).

This just nets that her initiate is even more Flash-R-E than ever before. Which makes her distressingly predictable. Old Annie could pretty much counter gank any single champion who didn't go in hard at full health...and with her E on CD. She has lost a lot of that power and versatility and now RoA is one of the topmost core items on her. Damage bases lower, E damage lower, E resists lower too now. Annie is becoming very AP dependent, somewhat pen dependent, and heavily Tibbers dependent. This just seems like they really cramped her options for play style.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

Spontaneous Combustion seems kinda OP, because she already has a quite high AA range.

Teridax681 votes

I guess that's sort of the point. :P

Annie's high autoattack range is a major part of her laning strength, which is why I think she's one of the few mages who'd do well with a basic attack enhancer. It plays to her strengths, and if it does turn out to be OP you could always nerf her basic attack damage to gate her harass more tightly. On the flipside, I'm also proposing to remove Annie's resistance steroid, so she'd have no inbuilt skill to make herself tankier if she gets focused. I don't want Annie to just get more damage for free, and I think removing her only defensive spell would make her squishiness and vulnerability to focus an even clearer weakness.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

{quoted}

I guess that's sort of the point. :P

Annie's high autoattack range is a major part of her laning strength, which is why I think she's one of the few mages who'd do well with a basic attack enhancer. It plays to her strengths, and if it does turn out to be OP you could always nerf her basic attack damage to gate her harass more tightly. On the flipside, I'm also proposing to remove Annie's resistance steroid, so she'd have no inbuilt skill to make herself tankier if she gets focused. I don't want Annie to just get more damage for free, and I think removing her only defensive spell would make her squishiness and vulnerability to focus an even clearer weakness.

The thing is, however, that Annie's basic attack range is on par with some skillshots. Unless she can't place the AA enhancer on herself, I'm still thinking that it would just turn her into an absolute monster that annihilates the meta.

Teridax681 votes

I doubt that. If Annie's autoattack harass were to be gated more harshly and telegraphed properly, she could actually even be less of a lane bully. Caitlyn has nuke-type spells (not on Annie's level, though), even longer-ranged autoattacks and higher autoattack damage, plus a steroid, but she doesn't really qualify as a monster, even though her poking power is massive. This is also completely ignoring Annie losing her inbuilt defenses, so she'd be far more vulnerable to dives, engages and even poke.

MasticatingGrill1 votes

I think you have some confusion on roles here. In a word, Annie has always been.

DELIBERATE.

She was intended to look small and weak but have a shocking tanky side and hit like an atom bomb esp in team fights.

Poor HP, slow, no fancy dodges or illusions. No inbuilt lifesteal or other special immunities. And TERRIFYING.

Thanks to item changes they messed with her kit. There were more champ counters against her in mid. Annie went down to support.

In the era of the DFG Annie's viable kits shrank quite a lot. And it didn't help that Riot tried to make her more AP dependent.

With the DFG removed, in this initial period Annie is still lacking a lot of viability outside support picks.

I mean anyone with a brain would counter pick her for mid as reasonable caution....?

She just does not have that "assault fortress" feel that I used to love in her. The feel of E being vital in her kit, her life or death. The Yi killer.

This current minor buff to E's utility on Tibbers does not really make up for the bear mostly being slow...and the BAM factor of smite.

If they want to make Tibbers a huge part of her post-six kit, he should really inherit more stats from her.

Want to tank? Now you have two tanks. Pure damage? More damage including to towers.

Unless you want some strange thing like Akali, say AP makes Tibbers tankier but HP or resists make him do more damage?

The current flow of changes from Riot feels a bit lazy. And god forbid they try to rework a kit that is still 90% of being a solid mid again. For support.

Teridax681 votes

Isn't deceptive tankiness a bad thing, though? If you're playing Annie, you might get some sort of satisfaction at being able to take a couple extra hits (even then, that's difficult to gauge), but if you're playing as her opponent, it's both confusing and frustrating to not damage her as much as you're supposed to, and damage yourself while doing so. Poppy , on top of her other flaws, is a big example of how unhealthy stealth-tankiness can be, since her damage reduction passive makes her much tougher in a way that's difficult to determine.

MasticatingGrill1 votes

This is an argument against diversity. :( Poppy is a clear example of stealth tankiness, yes. And EVERYONE knows her.

So you are saying that TRULY rare ability specs like stealth tankiness and mana injection etc should have all been removed? Riot can barely balance a stun so lets remove all silences, then blinds and probably roots too? Where does simplifying end?

The entire point of Annie was to bait enemies and frustrate them. Counterplaying her involves not getting pulled in.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

This is an argument against diversity. :( Poppy is a clear example of stealth tankiness, yes. And EVERYONE knows her.

I'm not arguing against diversity, I'm arguing against a lack of clarity. I think tanky characters are fine, as long as that tankiness is visible in some form. Everyone knows Poppy (or do they?), but that doesn't make it any less difficult to gauge the strength of her passive, which is one of the many reasons she's unhealthy to play against.

{quoted}

So you are saying that TRULY rare ability specs like stealth tankiness and mana injection etc should have all been removed?

Definitely yes to the first, most likely yes to the second. Making anything difficult to fully appreciate is bad design. I think mana is a whole can of worms that needs to be addressed comprehensively, but giving mana to others needs to carry some significance beyond just having your champion act like a mana battery, which was one of old Soraka 's major problems.

{quoted}

Riot can barely balance a stun so lets remove all silences, then blinds and probably roots too? Where does simplifying end?

I'm not advocating simplification of anything here. If something lacks clarity or consistency or healthiness, or if it could just be improved, then I'd like that thing to change for the better. I'm not a fan of blinds (again, due to confusing feedback), but I think stuns and silences are fine, again provided they're clear enough in their application.

{quoted}

The entire point of Annie was to bait enemies and frustrate them. Counterplaying her involves not getting pulled in.

But is that counterplay, though? More to the point, is it truly healthy for a champion to frustrate its opponents? I'm not sure of the answer, but I know for sure that frustrating people via insufficient clarity isn't a good thing to have.

MasticatingGrill1 votes

Riot is backing itself into a corner with some bad picks on the rework board. Their fix for AP assassins being able to 100-0 in one combo was removing DFG, but they also took LBs silence and Ahri's charm damage buff. It was a major mistake for assassins to ever be able to 100-0 ANYone uncontested. They took Talon's silence too for similar reasons. If they cannot set the target for an assassin to be 60-0 on ADC and 30-0 on tanks in one clean engage, they did something horribly wrong in the design phase.

Take away Annie's resists? Completely remove Poppy's passive? Why not take out Malph's shield? Morg's life steal? Akali's sustain? There is a TON of champs with levels of stealth tankiness once you start looking.

And my god man. Shaco, Teemo just the tip of the iceberg. Frustration has always been a design goal for some champs. Trollcranking? With that shield... Anivia OP egg taunt that makes people bronze themselves into dying for that finisher. Frustration is exactly proportional to encouraging good play practices and counterplay. Trap sweeping, pink wards, knowing when to pull out. "PANTHEON IS MISSING" etc. I'm not sure how being wreathed in flames is unclear on Annie. Or for that matter if you just left click on her it will show how many stun stacks she has. No guessing there either.

I still disagree with 100-0 assassins but if you want to kill Annie you bait her E at minimum. You probably bait her stun too, gambling on Flash or a mobility skill to escape that hard damage and harder disable. She cannot chase you very easily. Annie gets kills by baiting tryhard ganks, Flash initiating, and bursting hard damage into a team fight. She does not chase, and an auto attack steroid would potentially turn her into another Kayle or Teemo or etc. Besides they normalized her attack and cast ranges. She used to have an even shorter range on Q than on her auto if I remember it right. Of course they nerfed hell out of her R range over the years. And there are still bugs with applying stun via R in certain situations.

I do not have all the answers but I HATE Dota 2 and I also sorely dislike the old games where everything was pretty much the same except for damage radius and caster stats. I want to keep Annie as a squishy little brawler with a big bomb.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

Riot is backing itself into a corner with some bad picks on the rework board. Their fix for AP assassins being able to 100-0 in one combo was removing DFG, but they also took LBs silence and Ahri's charm damage buff. It was a major mistake for assassins to ever be able to 100-0 ANYone uncontested. They took Talon's silence too for similar reasons. If they cannot set the target for an assassin to be 60-0 on ADC and 30-0 on tanks in one clean engage, they did something horribly wrong in the design phase.

That's not what those changes were about. The whole general shift for assassins was to space out their kill potential and add more counterplay. It's fine for an assassin to 100-0 anyone, even a tank, provided they give their victim opportunities to react to them and outplay them, which is why several assassins lost their silences, and a major reason why DFG was removed.

{quoted}

Take away Annie's resists? Completely remove Poppy's passive? Why not take out Malph's shield? Morg's life steal? Akali's sustain? There is a TON of champs with levels of stealth tankiness once you start looking.

Malphite 's shield is just about as far removed from stealth tankiness as can be (it's a clearly visible shield that even changes Malph's model when active). I'm not too big a fan of Morgana 's spell vamp or Akali 's sustain, but sustain itself can be perfectly visible provided it's properly implemented. Irelia is a champion who lacks clarity in her sustain, because she sustains in such small amounts and from practically everything in her kit that it's difficult to see how much she's healing for at any given time.

{quoted}

And my god man. Shaco, Teemo just the tip of the iceberg. Frustration has always been a design goal for some champs. Trollcranking? With that shield... Anivia OP egg taunt that makes people bronze themselves into dying for that finisher. Frustration is exactly proportional to encouraging good play practices and counterplay. Trap sweeping, pink wards, knowing when to pull out. "PANTHEON IS MISSING" etc. I'm not sure how being wreathed in flames is unclear on Annie. Or for that matter if you just left click on her it will show how many stun stacks she has. No guessing there either.

It's good that you mention Shaco and Teemo, because they've been called out by both the community and Riot themselves for having toxic kits. Perhaps frustration has a place as a gameplay mechanic in League, but frustration for the sake of frustration isn't good. If we really do want to have deliberately frustrating or trollish champions in the game, they should still be fun to play against in some way or another. Killing Anivia when she's in egg form, even if you die for it, is tremendously rewarding, and so is dodging a Blitzcrank hook or clearing an enemy pink ward.

MasticatingGrill1 votes

Like I said Annie's E is clearly visible and you can count her stun stacks. What more do you want, visible cooldown indicators for her E? May as well ask for a CD indicator on Yi or Nunu. Some part of the game must be left to skill and instinct.

Sure she can be a rotten surprise for new players with crappy skills, but honestly most well built champions should have a real shocker in their kit. Like Zyra used to terrify me with her bizarre kit.

Your core argument is that she needs to be physically weaker than ever in trade for more lane harass. Which is strange because her Qs and autos have the same range. You just want a more mana efficient poke? Or that speed boost to land one more parting Q on an opponent? Annie could be a cannon or a fortress in the past, but what you suggest sounds more like a little skirmishing gunboat that blows up if you ever land a hit on it.

MasticatingGrill1 votes

Incidentally we just sorted a match where disabling Katarina was the only way to win. Kill logs showed she was deleting champs with damage dealt in a 0.2 second window. The tank lasted 0.4 second even with a hard MR item. That is in the new setup without DFG. Kat's damage is just so high that she can 100-0 pretty much anyone and reset. And you have to go 4-5 together versus her.

We turned the whole game around with Riot's latent cast issue...several times when she Shunpo-dodged from my Annie stun proc, she arrived at her target without taking damage....but was STUNNED because Rito coding. Then instead of ulting three people she got focused while stunned and instantly died. Does that work for counterplay? Because legitimately it seems more like a bug to fix.

And whether Akali, Kat, Zed...Jax? Godyr? I feel like being able to 1v5 an equally fed comp is tons more frustrating to a team than Annie's E or even Teemo's shrooms.

100-0 with almost no counterplay is still a serious risk on many champs. And the 35% reduced damage for Ahri does nothing to resolve classically toxic assassins like Kat. (They removed the DFG which means no %health damage + steroid, less max AP and they also removed the dmg buff from Charm...assassin Ahri seriously loses in the range of 35% dmg from her early combo prior to level 11).

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/kEVn1sdP-ahri-changes-how-much-did-it-hurt?show=flat&comment=0004 Please help in correcting if I made some huge error on that, I was in a hurry. But Kat can still easily do that much and more without a crutch like the DFG.

MasticatingGrill1 votes

You just reminded me that Poppy has been threatened with another of Riot's low quality reworks. Once completed the last Megling will be gone and there will be one more dippy Yordle. A Red even casually mentioned that maybe they would throw out the whole backstory and complete concept and just make a slightly similar champion with the same name. And a totally new kit.

These guys are making some really risky moves with their new and reworked stuff. It's like the PBE is almost useless to indicate whether a champion is ready to ship :( You can clearly see it from the panic patches after every single recent release.

Teridax682 votes

I think you and I have very different mentalities regarding this. You expect Riot to fail before they even make a change, and see the balancing and adjustments they do as just more signs of failure. You also dislike risk and change, and so expect any rework to also be a failure. I think Riot's been doing an overall great job and, while they do make mistakes (and some pretty big ones, like 4.20 Warwick), they also listen to feedback (despite what the boards here may think) and improve accordingly. I think League is a better game than it ever has been, and I think it's going to keep improving. Riot announced an eventual massive overhaul to Poppy, and I look forward to it, as they did an amazing job with Sion. If you keep seeing Riot as some kind of opponent trying to deceive and spite you, you're pretty much setting yourself up for disappointment with every new change they make.

MasticatingGrill1 votes

Sion did turn out okay, even with conversion to a mana using champion.

But the overall recent trend has been broken releases and misreading the concept when they rework a kit.

Followed by a rain of patches to keep altering the new kit due to insufficient testing.

This is leading me to general pessimism at this time, yes.

I do think some champs badly need a full rework and soon because their old role is obsolete.

But Annie just seems low on the list for an overhaul. She just needs pre-DFG power attitudes.

Leaf of the lake1 votes

I like her e, honestly. It opens up additional build options, which, while maybe not "ideal," could work in/against particular comps. Building max cdr and tank, and you're still doing decent dps with multiple stuns per teamfight. Not to mention being able to cast the shield on tibbers means he sticks around for longer, keeping her dps up.

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